Talk:Eromenos

Needs references

Needs ref, unref tag added. --FloNight 10:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Categorization

This article is currently in the categories Greek Pederasty and Category:Sexuality in the classical world. Since "Greek Pederasty" is a subcat of Category:Ancient Greek eros, which is in turn a subcat of "Sexuality in the classical world", is it necessary to have both? WP:SUBCAT has some guidelines, but I'm unsure how to apply them to this case. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably needs to be reduced to the most specific category in a given line. Also moved to B-calss, correct me if I am wrong. Haiduc 02:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I've moved this to start-class, mostly because of length. I'll remove the two "stubs" from the page, too. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

WHY is this under Queer Studies? The Greek Eromenos/Erastes relationships were NOT homosexual relationships; they were complicated mentorships that all citizen boys (that is, the aristocracy) took part in. They were relationships of teaching political science, culture, social graces, and philosophy. Rarely was there sexual intercourse between the Eromenos and his Erastes and those relationships that went into that realm were frowned upon, the Erastes mocked and defamed. This has very, very little (if anything) to do with "Queer Studies." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.233.199.55 (talk) 22:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Greek homosexuality is an accepted subtopic of homosexuality, and is seen as a precursor, and by some, such as Symonds, as an ideal to be emulated, while others, such as Halperin, see it as an aberration. Haiduc (talk) 01:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Why does it seem to me that this whole thing should be viewed much more as a Senpai/kohai relationship? Elp gr (talk) 17:25, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

And why is the whole article written in comically bad English? The example of public hair would be an accidental howler of note; except that it reoccurs throughout the article. It is definitely overdue an overhaul.

Nuttyskin (talk) 20:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Italicisation of title

Should it be italicised in the title given it is throughout the article? AllenY99 (talk) 16:50, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Message: Here is an better Improvement for the Eromenos Wikipedia Article and please accept and place my revised edits, and also a completely permanent total ban and prohibition using anti-LGBT, anti-Gay and pro-Homophobic edits based on gay men and LGBT relationships in general and is unrelated to homosexuality, especially for males

i am sorry if i made any mistakes, please pardon my clumsiness and i did not try to disrupt anything okay, i was trying to help fix it to be more accurate and please do not ever use homosexuality and gay men and anything related to the LGBT community in this article and never ever use them because they are very inappropriate, repulsive, disgusting, and dangerously anti-LGBT, anti-Gay and pro-Homophobia and it is harmful to LGBT rights as a whole it will not be tolerated. END OF STORY AND DISCUSSION, NO BUTS ABOUT IT, NO MEANS NO OKAY. PPPEEERRRIIIOOODDD!!!, also here is the improved good version if you would allow it and place it in the article please, thank you and good luck.

An artwork depicting a pederastic relationship between an Eraste ("lover") and a eromeno ("beloved") during the Classical antiquity. The tondo of an Attic red-figured cup. Dated 480 BCE. Louvre Museum in Paris, France

In ancient Greece, an eromeno was a submissive younger male partner engaged in a pederastic relationship during the classical period of greece within the Greco-Roman world. The erastes were the dominant older male partners of the eromenos. The eromenos were often depicted as effeminate and beardless younger males unlike their masculine and bearded male counterparts (eraste) themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.202.60.98 (talk) 09:35, 1 Nov 2024 (UTC)

Your header is inappropriate. Please change it to something informative but neutral.

Please do not simple post your proposed version on the talk page. Do not expect other editors to compare the article, your previous edit, and your proposed text on the talk page line by line looking for your changes. Break it down and discuss the individual changes.

Discussing a contested edit on the talk page is not simply posting your version and then restoring it before anyone has a change to comment, let alone reach a consensus. Meters (talk) 19:11, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

OP blocked one month. Meters (talk) 21:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

permanently bannning using homosexuality and gay to describe the relationship between Eromenos.

hello, i want to point out that eromoenos are not all lgbt but harmed victims by their sex abusers (the erastes) and no one should use the terms male homosexuality and lgbt men to describe ancient greek males being coerced into sex trafficking and slavery, and also the eromenos (forced sex slaves) and erastes (sex offender owners) are not gay men at all. period, ps i disacourage the use and ban it as an inherently and intrinsically Anti-LGBT related, thank you. :) 112.202.54.28 (talk) 14:48, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

The article does not currently use the words "gay" or "LGBT" at all and indeed it probably shouldn't as these are modern categories which would have made no sense to ancience Greeks. However, the eromenos was not a sex slave – the ancient Greeks did have actual literal slaves who were forced into prostitution, but that is not what "eromenos" refers to and conflating the two is not helpful even if neither would be acceptable to modern morality. As for "homosexuality"/"homosexual" – the word is widely used in academic discussions of Greek sexuality. If you don't like the uses of the word in the article currently, you're much more likely to get consensus to change it if you propose an alternative rather than just declaring that you "ban" it. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Obvious block evasion by the IP. See the above thread. Meters (talk) 19:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I message to criticize and change the misleading link to connect the gay men article in the eromenos article.

message: hello there i think you need to permanently reconsider and disallow using the terms gay and/or lgbt links to the wikipedia article about eromenos, because it is inaccurately not at all a so-called male 'homosexual relationship' and unrelated to gay men in general and is going to harm all gay men and the LGBT communities everywhere and shame on that past editor wiki-user Meters for using the wrong link to relate this for this inherently and intrinsically offensive pro-homophobic and general anti-LGBT edits, links and word are extremely bad choice of words, edits and links that may mislead and cause harm to all the LGBT communities worldwide and also reinforces and promotes pro-homophobic and anti-LGBT agendas and propaganda and it poorly failed to distinguish and differentiate the distinctions, and it is gross, disgusting and repulsive to all LGBT rights in general including lgbt minors. this is a sickly twisted anti-LGBT hypocrisy and irony. please do note that i am pro-LGBT supporter GenZ young adult and i oppose, judge and criticize this anti-gay and lgbt rhetoric in this wikipedia article that is considered a threat against pro-LGBT rights activism and advocacy, please do not allow this misleading edit to be use for pro-homophobic activities, thank you. :) 112.202.57.64 (talk) 13:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

How many times are you going to raise the same issues? As user:Caeciliusinhorto-public pointed out, The article does not currently use the words "gay" or "LGBT" at all, and as I pointed out, Discussing a contested edit on the talk page is not simply posting your version and then restoring it before anyone has a change to comment, let alone reach a consensus. You have been trying to push your version for two months now, and no-one seems to support your version. Meters (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not "pushing" my edits, I was trying to improve the edits to remove misleading information to correct the mistakes to make it more accurate and informative. Also is Wikipedia suppose to promote accurate information for everyone to read and learn in its own edited articles based on resources, thank you. :) 112.202.57.64 (talk) 01:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

You are wp:edit warring. See wp:BRD for procedure to contest content. Adakiko (talk) 03:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

You are repeatedly introducing errors. For example, your insistence on "eromeno"/"eraste", neither of which are English words: "eromenos" and "erastes" are the correct singular. Other non-improvements include "younger and passive" -> "actively passive" (I'm not sure what being "actively passive" even means), and "The eromenos was often depicted as beautiful, beardless and more youthful-looking than the erastes" -> "The eromenos themselves were often depicted as beautifully beardless and more youthful-looking young males than their older-looking bearded-masculine male partners" which says effectively the same thing less elegantly.

Your most recent set of edits introduced several grammatical errors but I cannot work out what "misleading information" you think it removed or what mistakes you think it corrected. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 08:41, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello there, I am so sorry for the late reply to respond. The Eromenos and Erastes themselves are not gay or lgbt men at all, they are male sex partners doing inappropriate sex acts involving pederasty which constitute abusive sex crimes that are completely unrelated and inaccurate to all the gay men and/or LGBT people in general, and also again there is nothing inherently and intrinsically gay-related or LGBT-related at all to begin with, another thing to be noted, can you please do not use any or all Wikipedia links to gay and LGBT-based articles for this article about eromenos, it is really inappropriately inaccurate, misleading and misinformed since the ancient greek and roman civilized societies don’t know what sexual orientation and gender identity during the ancient times within the classical antiquity in the Greco-Roman world in their respective socially societal communities and civilizations and it only refers to the behaviors only not identities at all PERIOD!!!. I am again stated before I support and encourage all forms of LGBT Rights activism/advocacy as an campaigner/champion and I find this gross, disgusting and repulsive to all the LGBT People and communities worldwide and these edits in the article will be misleading people to think they are evil people who will harm others as menacing threats to all civilized societies and will lead to reinforcing pro-homophobic and anti-LGBT agendas and propagandas and cause grave harm and weaponize this as a insulting mockery to them to be dehumanized and demonized to endangerment, can you please understand where I am getting at you know I do not want this and you too do as well, I encourage you to know this and allow proper information, also I forgot to mention that I myself did a lot of research and studies about everything on Wikipedia and outside of it as well, also I sincerely apologize for the confusion and mixups of these edits and stuff and do please pardon me for my flaws thank you, signed the GenZ autistic young adult Filipino male from the Philippines here and have a good day. Oh BTW and FYI, I will redo my edits to be properly fixed and alright, I am so sorry and also this time and make them look good and accurate next time. :) 112.202.57.64 (talk) 12:49, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I forgot again to inform you that to clarify the issue, the so-called term 'male homosexual' does not at all match the Wikipedia article about it and is misleading and misinformed itself and I recommend using sexual relationships, relations or activity instead to distinguish and differentiate as completely distinct as two different things unrelated and unlinked to each other, thank you for you service. :) 112.202.57.64 (talk) 12:58, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I am sorry again, to really clarify what I said clearly is that the so-called term 'male homosexual' relationship is pro-homophobic and anti-gay men and will harm a lot of them, BTW and FYI using male homosexuality in this article is irrelevant and misleading, do please understand this to all the LGBT rights groups and communities out there worldwide, again thank you. :) 112.202.57.64 (talk) 13:07, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not even going to try to address everything here, because it's frankly too difficult to make sense of what your wall of barely punctuated text is trying to say. That being said:

The Eromenos and Erastes themselves are not gay or lgbt men at all, they are male sex partners doing inappropriate sex acts involving pederasty which constitute abusive sex crimes The fact that the first issue you bring up is something which has repeatedly been pointed out to you is not true is not encouraging. Despite your repeated complaints about calling the eromenos and erastes gay or LGBT, the article does not do so and has never done so in all the time you have been bringing it up.

I forgot again to inform you that to clarify the issue, the so-called term 'male homosexual' does not at all match the Wikipedia article about it. "Homosexual"/"homosexuality" is widely used in the scholarly literature about Greek sexuality. Dover's seminal work which put the subject on the map for classicists is literally called Greek Homosexuality; more recently James Davidson's The Greeks and Greek Love is subtitled "A Radical Reappraisal of Homosexuality in Ancient Greece"; Thomas Hubbard's sourcebook on the topic is called Homosexuality in Greece and Rome... That's just the word that scholars use. Wikipedia isn't going to pretend that the erastes/eromenos relationship wasn't between two men because it makes us uncomfortable in the modern world to think about the power/age dynamics involved. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 15:24, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

hello, thank you for reading my messages and i truly understand about it in full context, i do believe you do not fully understand correctly about my message properly and accurately, and these replied messages i sent may likely confuse and contradict you in some way or another if so i really do sincerely apologize for my lack of correcting my grammar and wording, i was just trying to fix it in the right way for readers like me for informative knowledge and is wikipedia suppose to give accurate information about everything correctly to inform readers and its wiki-editors to help others i do not mean no harm at all, again please do pardon me for my mistaken flaws i must have made i am again so sorry about my clumsiness in my poorly failed choice of words, yet again i still fully disagree with the so-called term 'male homosexual' relationship it is again i just said and stated above the past replies that i want propose an alternative edited word to properly suit the article to like i stated about instead of 'male homosexual' in the header please i highly recommend and encourage you and other editors to use sexual relationship, relations or activity as a corrected alternative in order to not confuse and contradict all the readers and editors witnessing the article about the eromenos, BTW and FYI please do read my past replies that i messaged again and again to truly understand my point where i am getting at which you know already reading. signed by a GenZ young male autistic filipino adult in his 20s from the Philippines trying to help all LGBT people and communities worldwide, thank you. ps i am a very caring and loving person looking out for myself and others :) 112.202.57.64 (talk) 04:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Opps, i forgot to mention that i did properly understood your messages you replied back to me and i was just using gay and lgbt to refer to so-called 'male homosexual' relationship it does not sum it up for everyone including me who knew better about all forms of LGBT rights through activism/advocacy and supporter/campaigner to progress and liberate human rights than anybody else PERIOD!!!, again like i previously stated the ancient greeks and romans during the classical antiquity within the greco-roman world do not know sexuality at all but sex acts involving genital intercourse to describe the activity they did for any reason only, not who they are in their biological identity as humans in other words, sexual orientation and gender identity is not punished but their carnally lustful pleasures in having intercourse with anyone who to actively cruising around to sleep with all the multiple people they encounter to act promiscuously to fornicate with them, thank you. ps please the replied message i sent above previously :) 112.202.57.64 (talk) 04:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

improper misunderstood edits and inappropriate use of so-called 'male homosexual' relationship and instead use a accurately appropriate description.

Hello, i really have a long time talk page already about the article's main talk page on eromenos in the past about this, please read all the past messages and replies and also this is properly edited accurate wording to fix and improve the page to provide true information to refrain and omit the term 'male homosexual' it is a very bad and homophobic choice of wording that is verm harmful to wikipedia and i recommend to use a simplified appropriate term like sexual relations instead as goodly informed wording to avoid misinformation and to protect gay men and lgbt people in general, i knew they were not gay or lgbt at all in the fist place to begin with, ancient greece and rome don't know anything about human sexuality through sexual orientation and gender identity at all, but sex acts being involved eromenoi and erastai were never gay or lgbt to begin with in the first place and are totally and completely unrelated and unlinked to gay and lgbt people and all forms of sex acts do not at all and has and never will be counted as so-called 'evidence' of lgbt identity having sex with someone is not proof at all, PERIOD!!!, don't use misleading words and links please, thank you. GenZ young male autistic filipino adult in his 20s from the Philippines trying to help all LGBT people and communities worldwide because i am a very caring and loving person looking out for myself and others :) 112.202.57.64 (talk) 09:33, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

This discussion has already been had, and you don’t have consensus to make that change. Please stop edit warring on the page and proposing it over and over again on the talk page. GraziePrego (talk) 10:10, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

the term 'male homosexual' relationship is inappropriate okay, end of story, also i have changed the link into a proper edited word to suit the article, thank you. 112.202.57.64 (talk) 10:25, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

by "suit the article" i mean 'to be properly suited for all the readers in this article to everyone to agree on okay, thank you for your patience and it not about me and myself at all but everyone and this a accepted consensus for all the readers everywhere, end of story, alright. 112.202.57.64 (talk) 10:31, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

That’s your opinion, and not an opinion shared by other editors, I have reverted your edits. GraziePrego (talk) 11:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)