Talk:Eli and the Thirteenth Confession

hottest record of the summer

The anonymous quote, once attributed to the correct party, regarding the hottest albums of the summer being Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and the Laura Nyro record belongs on the page for her debut LP, not this one, as it must refer to her earlier LP. Thirteenth Confession came out in the late winter following the summer of 1967, when Sgt. Pepper was the ubiquitous album of the rock world. PJtP (talk) 20:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Unnecessary analysis

The entire analysis section is almost completely unreferenced and reads like a fan site review. It is unnecessary for an encyclopedia article. A "critical response" section, possibly addressing individual songs, would be appropriate, but this song-by-song breakdown isn't. Movingboxes (talk) 02:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

As I've noted in my edit summary, personal e-mails to an editor from a person who admits that she isn't an expert in the subject in question (Laura Nyro lyrics) doesn't even come close to meeting the guidelines of WP:V. Also, even if that single fact were cited, it doesn't change anything about the entire analysis section being unencyclopedic. Movingboxes (talk) 03:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Hi Movingboxes. I agree that it is questionable to review songs in an encyclopedia. But in an article about an album, i.e. ELI, it is appropriate to follow the album Concept Section with song analysis. Including and citing quotes from expert sources is the sine qua non of proper analysis. I wish to address your express concern about personal e-mails to an editor from a person who demurs to being an expert on lyrics. In order to use her quote, which I believed to be important to the analysis, I had to respect her limiting proviso. My vitae includes a law degree, a JD. To qualify an expert, the rules of evidence require a showing of any or all of the following: skill, knowledge, experience, education and/or training (SKEET). I visited the myspace.com page of this Wikipedia recognized music theorist. I found this woman was a prolific singer/songwriter (lyrics and music), a pianist, an accomplished performer of her and others music, and possessing a graduate degree in musicology. It was not her skill, knowledge, experience, education or training that limited her expertise re: lyrics; it was her youthful modesty. ~~Ralph, Let's call her Ralph~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.199.58 (talk) 02:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any issue with the skills, knowledge, experience, education, or training of the person you cited. My issue is entirely with the source--an e-mail to you. This is not verifiable by other editors and so fails the standards set forth at WP:V. Even if this was an appropriate source, there are many statements in the section that are not sourced even to this minimum extent and so come across as original research (see WP:OR) or personal opinion. If this section could be expanded so that it was clearly represented published, verifiable opinions on the songs, then this could meet Wikipedia standards. While it may be appropriate it have a song-by-song concept breakdown for some albums, this particular section falls far short of the standard. Movingboxes (talk) 03:18, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, may I ask what you mean when you refer to Lauren as a "Wikipedia recognized music theorist"? I am not aware of any Wikipedia sponsored recognition program. Movingboxes (talk) 04:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Movingboxes, I love "to dispute the passage", but I try to do so with civility and grace. I feel gratuitous sarcasm acts to estrange rather than promote communication.

The following quote is from the Laura Nyro Main page of Wikipedia - Biographies and Analysis Section. "Laura Nyro's music was the subject of an in-depth 2003 study by music theorist Ari Lauren at the University of Chicago. By analyzing the rhythmic and chordal progressions of Nyro's early work, Ms. Lauren elucidated the similarities between Nyro's songs and the compositions of the Tin Pan Alley era, arguing that Laura Nyro deserves a place within the pantheon of the Great American Songbook, alongside such composers as George Gershwin, Harold Arlen, and Jerome Kern."

Okay, I took a look at Laura Nyro to see the reference to Lauren. By Wikipedia standards, that isn't even a good part of the article--it doesn't mention where this research is published or give the reader any indication of how to check it out for themselves. If it was unpublished, then it isn't appropriate to cite. If it is published, then that information should be added to the article. Either way, what Wikipedia editors cannot do is contact experts and conduct original research (see WP:OR) to add to the article. That is outside of the scope of the project. Movingboxes (talk) 05:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless, your criticism re: the e-mail is well taken. I'm working toward marshalling another avenue to provide a more rigorous citation ~~Ralph, Let's call her Ralph~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ralph, Let's call her Ralph (talk • contribs) 05:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you thought I was displaying "gratuitous sarcasm." I was trying to convey that I wasn't sure if there was a Wikipedia recognition program and leaving open the possibility that there was one that I was not informed of. Just so you know, a Wikipedia article cannot verify a fact for another Wikipedia article--that is, the fact that Lauren was mentioned in another article doesn't establish the fact that she is an expert. An independent source is necessary for that, a source that goes beyond a personal e-mail or information from her myspace.com page. Again, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, this is just well-established Wikipedia policy. Anything on myspace.com would be considered a "self-published source," and it is not sufficient for establishing anything. Movingboxes (talk) 05:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:OR and WP:NPOV

This article contained some sections that seemed to contain original research ("Concept" and "Analysis") and POV (it isn't the place of an encyclopedia to tell us that songs are good or beautiful). I have removed the sections that didn't seem to be salvagable in their current state. A good addition to the article would be a section on critical reception, something I can't tackle right now, but will try to work on next week. Perhaps another, more Nyro-experienced, editor can help with this? I have also tagged a couple of statements that I think need citation. Movingboxes (talk) 00:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Movingboxes: The actions you took were extreme. They were not in the best traditions of Wikipedia. You destroyed the labor of I don't know, how many people, over I don't know, how many hours? You did it arbitrarily and without proper notice. After having eviscerated the work product of others, you left in its wake "...I can't tackle (it) right now." Maybe next week? I am "a Johnny come lately" to the Eli page. My input concerned only two songs, i.e. "Timer" and "Emmie." None of my entries were original research nor opinion. I rely upon facts, events, and cirumstances. I apply these, with expert testimony that is supported by easily verifiable citations, in a logical and rational manner. The 1968 song "Emmie" is a groundbreaking event in Popular music. It is the first popular lesbian love song since the 1920's Berlin song, "Wenn die beste Freundin" (Marlene Dietrich & Margot Lion). In fact, I believe you acted as a reaction to the facts of "Emmie." When confronted with the authorities and analysis, and not being able to destoy the reasoning nor dismiss the authoritative references, you decided to expunge it all. It was done to remove any basis of a logical justification as per the Wikipedia guidelines. Such an extreme act smacks of prejudice and I trust that it is not motivated by HOMOPHOBIA. Accordingly, I demand a review of your actions by the Cabal. I want the Concept and Song analysis sections returned. Eli was a groundbreaking album in many other areas apart from my parochial concerns re: "Timer" and "Emmie." It deserves a proper editor and gatekeeper sans the sarcasm and palpable bias. ~~Ralph, Let's call her Ralph~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.109.168.45 (talk) 16:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

First of all, nothing has been "destroyed" as it is preserved in the edit history. The section in question hadn't been improved since the template was placed and there was no indication that any editor was making efforts to improve it to bring it inline with key Wikipedia policies of attribution and neutral point of view (WP:V and WP:NPOV). As for "proper notice," I don't know what I could have done beyond tagging the article, opening a discussion on the talk page, and waiting to see if improvements would be forthcoming (and none were). Although your edits may not have contained original research or opinion, the two sections in question contained almost nothing but. Your "expert testimony" consisted of e-mails that were sent to you personally. If it was a "groundbreaking event" then there should be no problem finding appropriate, verifiable sources to cite. I don't know what you mean by "the Cabal," but I feel confident that my actions are consistent with Wikipedia policies. You are free to seek a request for comment, obviously you don't need permission from me to do so. Bringing homophobia into the discussion is poor form and it isn't in keeping with WP:AGF. My only concern is for the quality of the encyclopedia. I think Wikipedia deserves a high quality article and Nyro deserves an article that goes beyond fan puffery. Movingboxes (talk) 05:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Movingboxes: I agree the quality of Wikipedia and the quality of a Laura Nyro article, deserves all we can give it. To do this properly will take time and help. When you are ready to put up the "critical reception" section, it will give a more clearer picture of exactly what that will be. I intend to input there. In the meantime, under references re: ELI, I have restored the link to the Wikia article, entitled "Emmie, Pop's first lesbian love song." May I remind you, the title is not, my fan puffery, but a music comment published by Alanna Nash. She wrote it, for EW.com, on April 25, 1997; this was seventeen days after Laura died. Such a groundbreaking claim is worthy of note. I know that you don't like e-mails, but as this is the discussion page, forgive the informality. In an unsolicited e-mail, on Monday, July 28, 2008, after the wikia article publication, Ms Nash endorsed the use of her quote. ~~Ralph, Let's call her Ralph~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.109.184.95 (talk) 05:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the link to the Wikia article is a very good idea. Yesterday I read both the reviews that were linked to in the info box. Do you think those reviews would form the good basis for a "critical reception" section? I'd like to include some more recent thought on the album as well. Also, I would like to change the wording on the link to the Wikia article so that it isn't such a clear POV statement--something like "Link to lgbt.Wikia article discussing 'Emmie' as pop's first lesbian love song." What do you think of that suggestion? Movingboxes (talk) 06:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Movingboxes: That is an excellent suggestion, thanks. I meant to include the lgbt tag, but I forgot it. Would it be alright for you to modify it your way? I am not sure how to do it, that way. The latest critical analysis I found is a blog called The G-Spot. On May 8, 2008, Kathy G posted a blog entitled “The G Spot Weekend Diva Blogging: Laura Nyro.” Eli is dicussed; there are video links to "Emmie" & "Timer." I checked the Allmusic review. It would be a good start. I got blogged down at the Rolling Stone trying to find the ELI review. You don't have to decide now. Why not let it marinate. What are the chances of getting the notorious silhouetted back cover of ELI posted with the front cover? From my reading, the citation request re: "Holy Trinity" is referred to severally. I managed to google various sites under "holy trinity of Laura Nyro." It's not my entry, but there are a beavy of avid fans who feel that ELI, Tendaberry & Beads of Sweat are the absolute Laura. The term arose referring to the four album contract with CBS that David L. Geffen secured. Creativity wise she was given carte blacnhe. The first three albums are all original material. The fourh album "Gonna Take A Miracle" is largely slavish covers, save Désiree & Spanish Harlem. The term "Holy Trinity" is catchy while not being kitchy. Sorry! ~~Ralph, Let's call her Ralph~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.109.181.3 (talk) 22:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I will let it marinate, as you suggested. If we can get a free use version of the back cover (I'm not really good on working with images), I think it would be a great addition to the article. If you can add a link to where it was referred to as part of a "holy trinity" we can add that source to the article--I certainly don't have a problem with the term, providing it is sourced. Movingboxes (talk) 23:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Who was Eli?

The article should explain who "Eli's comin'" refers to? — Solo Owl (talk) 12:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)