Talk:Edward Aburrow Sr

Edward Aburrow Sr has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: October 30, 2022. (Reviewed version).

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of 1744 English cricket season was copied or moved into Edward Aburrow Sr with this edit on 14:18, 26 September 2022. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

GA Review

Passed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:48, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Edward Aburrow Sr/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 21:56, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I may use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Links

Prose

Lede

(c.1715–?), - if we don't know the death date, we shouldn't really mention it. Or at least say "death date unknown". Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:50, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The IP in 2015 inserted two dates but I had strong doubts about the death date as none of the other sources mention his death, so I removed the IP's entry. However, the birth date given by the IP of 1714/1715 is entirely feasible so I amended that to c.1715. If you prefer birth date unknown, I'll be happy either way. As for his place of birth, Ashley-Cooper sort of infers that he was a Slindon man but, looking at the piece again, he may well mean "of the Slindon club". I've now said Aburrow was a Slindon resident as he was definitely the village tailor. People in those times rarely moved from their place of birth but, although I think we could safely assume Aburrow was born in Slindon, it isn't certain. Aburrow did finally relocate to Hampshire but, as Underdown surmises, probably because he was a dead man walking.

I was aware that CricketArchive has West Meon as the birthplace but, as is often the case, that is almost certainly wrong and I ignored it. No other source has been found to corroborate it and that database is extremely unreliable when it comes to early cricket. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting aside here, although it's not something we can use in the article without a reliable secondary source. I've received an email from one of my ACS contacts who tells me there is an unpublished MSS by a well-known cricket researcher which contains information about Aburrow. According to this, West Meon was the place of death in April 1763 when Aburrow was 48 years old, which would mean he was born in either 1714 or 1715. There is an additional note which says he is "believed" to have been born in Slindon where he was later in business as a tailor, etc., etc. So, it looks as if the IP may have been right about the dates but I still have doubts about their sources. Knowing the researcher's reputation, I've no doubt the details are correct but..... the MSS is unpublished. West Meon is only a few miles north of Hambledon; CricketArchive has the right place but at the wrong end of Aburrow's life. BoJó | talk UTC 09:30, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Lee Vilenski: - here's a copy of the McCann source. McCann doesn't seem to attribute any birth or death date to Aburrow as far as I can tell - and his CricketArchive profile (here behind a paywall, and here in an archive version you should be able to access (it hasn't changed)) doesn't give a birth or death date - and tells us he was born somewhere else. That may be in error of course, but there doesn't seem to be any source that says he was born at Slindon either - McCann certainly doesn't say that. Ashley-Cooper says "of Slindon" - although he can be generous with the facts (page 83 is where the biographic profiles in Ashley-Cooper start fwiw - the search function is reasonable, but you'll need to search for "Cuddy"). There's been all sorts of historic speculation on early cricket articles in the past which doesn't help matters in general. (Haygarth and Nyren have much more to say about his son, of the same name and who appears to have been a native of Hambledon)

Previous versions of the article had sources for probably baptismal and funeral dates fwiw, although it's all a bit OR - the Family Search ref is possible, but I'd want to check the actual register sources I think. Not the different spelling, although that's entirely to be expected. These seem to have been added by an IP - virtually all of the other work on the article was by BlackJack, Jim Hardie and No Great Shaker - all of which were the same editor... There's, shall we say, a murky history here. Blue Square Thing (talk) 00:26, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose for me, there's only really one question - does an RS state a date of birth/date of death? If they do, then we include it (even if it's vague). If we're down the non-RS rabithole, we shouldn't include, even if we are ultra sure. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:45, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused by the image in the infobox, I get that he's played for the town, but is that statue about him specifically? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:50, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's actually a monument erected in 2000 to commemorate the village team of the 1740s. Aburrow and the three Newland brothers were the team's outstanding players. I've lengthened the caption to two lines. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aburrow Sr is first recorded in the 1744 season and played until at least 1751. - so not 1742? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:50, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

He was first definitely named in 1744 but the references to a noted Slindon bowler in 1742 almost certainly allude to him. Ashley-Cooper talks about Aburrow and the Newlands being prominent in 1742. I moved the sentence about 1744 into the 1744 section. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

General

contemporary of the three Newland brothers - the who? 20:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

I've added a bit to briefly explain they were Aburrow's team mates. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The first definite reference to Aburrow in contemporary records is in the 1744 season when he was 29.[note 2] - this (and the note) are unsourced. If the note is speculation we shouldn't be making it. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The note was explaining that there are no sources about Aburrow or Slindon in the 1730s but, on reflection, it didn't add value so I've removed it. You can't really source a statement of no sources, ha! BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The visitors - without knowing where the artillery ground is, we don't know which team is home/away. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've mentioned that the ground is in Finsbury, London. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Richmond at Goodwood House.[7][8][9][10][11] - WP:CITEKILL. You'd be better splitting these down into the paragraph.Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, apologies, I should have sorted that before. I've shared them through the whole paragraph where they can be cited. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Same - nine wickets down.[12][13][14][15][16][17]

As for the above. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aburrow scored 0 and 2. - considering we don't say this is a test match, it's difficult to know what this means. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've linked the first mention of run (cricket) and used runs after Aburrow's first score. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None of the notes are sourced. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the one that can't be sourced (see above) and added some to the other two. These are just generic explanations about what was happening in cricket at the time and don't concern Aburrow specifically. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

An Index to Waghorn isn't used - any reason? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moved it into the FR section. As its title says, it is a very useful companion guide because neither of Waghorn's books contain an index. Waghorn collected extracts from 18th century newspapers and published them with little comment. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What makes it a "select Bibliography?" Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Error. Copied from another page. BoJó | talk UTC 14:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review meta comments

I'll begin the review as soon as I can! If you fancy returning the favour, I have a list of nominations for review at WP:GAN and WP:FAC, respectively. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these if you get time. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:56, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Lee, and thank you very much for taking this on. I'll try and answer any questions you might have. As it happens, I will be looking for other articles to review. I picked up three yesterday but two were immediate fails and the other is definitely going to pass after a few minor points have been cleared up. BoJó | talk UTC 12:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again, Lee, and thank you for this review which is very thorough. These are good questions. I can answer some of them immediately but I'll set them aside for now and come back with a complete set of answers, if that's okay. BoJó | talk UTC 08:36, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No drama. Take your time. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Lee. I've made some changes and added an explanation to each of the points above. Thanks very much for your feedback which has helped me to improved the article. BoJó | talk UTC 14:32, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note on the date of birth/death - I'm going to promote now, but that information still holds true. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:48, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.