Talk:Donald Trump and fascism

This article was nominated for deletion on 30 October 2024. The result of the discussion was keep.

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

Ashley Rindsberg (October 29, 2024). "Wikipedia Editors Officially Deem Trump a Fascist". Pirate Wires.
"Wikipedia Launches Trump Facism Page, Amid Push for Financial Donations". shorenewsnetwork.com. October 29, 2024.
Brady Knox (October 29, 2024). "Musk calls Wikipedia 'broken' after page resurfaces defining Trump as 'fascist'". Washington Examiner.
"Musk says Wikipedia 'broken', citing alleged anti-Trump bias". Al Mayadeen. October 30, 2024.

Reference ideas for Donald Trump and fascism

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Colasacco, Brett (2018). "Before Trump: On Comparing Fascism and Trumpism". Journal for the Study of Radicalism. 12 (1): 27–53. doi:10.14321/jstudradi.12.1.0027. ISSN 1930-1189.
Crick, Nathan, ed. (2022). The Rhetoric of Fascism. The University of Alabama Press. ISBN 978-0-8173-2118-5.
de la Torre, Carlos (2022). "Fascism and Populism". In Oswald, Michael (ed.). The Palgrave handbook of populism. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 163–176. ISBN 978-3-030-80803-7.
Harris, Jerry; Davidson, Carl; Fletcher, Bill; Harris, Paul (2017-10-02). "Trump and American Fascism". International Critical Thought. 7 (4): 476–492. doi:10.1080/21598282.2017.1357491. ISSN 2159-8282.
Goldstein, Warren S (2021). "Trump, the religious right, and the spectre of fascism". Critical Research on Religion. 9 (1): 3–7. doi:10.1177/2050303221997554. ISSN 2050-3032.
Greenberg, Udi (2021). "What Was the Fascism Debate?". Dissent. 68 (3): 119–127. doi:10.1353/dss.2021.0066. ISSN 1946-0910.
Jackson, Paul Nicholas (2021). "Debate: Donald Trump and Fascism Studies". Fascism. 10 (1): 1–15. doi:10.1163/22116257-10010009. ISSN 2211-6257.
Kuklick, Bruce (2022). Fascism Comes to America: A Century of Obsession in Politics and Culture. The University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-82146-7.
Maher, Henry (2023). "Neoliberal fascism? Fascist trends in early neoliberal thought and echoes in the present". Contemporary Political Theory. 23 (3): 392–410. doi:10.1057/s41296-023-00657-x. ISSN 1470-8914.
McGaughey, Ewan (2018-12-31). "Fascism-lite in America (or The Social Ideal of Donald Trump)". British Journal of American Legal Studies. 7 (2): 291–315. doi:10.2478/bjals-2018-0012. ISSN 2049-4092.
Rosenfeld, Gavriel D. (2019). "An American Führer? Nazi Analogies and the Struggle to Explain Donald Trump". Central European History. 52 (4): 554–587. ISSN 0008-9389.
Svehla, Lance; Lyons, William (2024). "The Audacity of Trump: The Rhetorical Strategy of President Donald Trump". In Grossman, Michael; Schortgen, Francis; Matthews, Ronald Eric Jr.; Cohen, David B. (eds.). The Legacy of the Trump Administration: A Disruptive Presidency. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 149–165. ISBN 978-3-031-65247-9.
Tourish, Dennis (2023). "It is time to use the F word about Trump: Fascism, populism and the rebirth of history". Leadership. 20 (1): 9–32. doi:10.1177/17427150231210732. ISSN 1742-7150.
Why Trump Is a Fascist - interview with Jason Stanley
Jason Stanley (2020). How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them. Random House Trade Paperbacks. ISBN 978-0525511854.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Queen of Hearts talk 02:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that multiple members of Donald Trump's former staff have called him a fascist?

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/22/us/politics/john-kelly-trump-fitness-character.html, https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/

ALT1: ... that JD Vance once compared Donald Trump to Adolf Hitler? Source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/16/jd-vance-political-views-trump
Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Dog (2nd nomination)
Comment: I'm fully aware that this will be a very controversial topic, but I think the article covers it from a neutral perspective.

Moved to mainspace by Di (they-them) (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 25 past nominations.

Di (they-them) (talk) 12:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Comment is this not a WP:REDUNDANTFORK of Trumpism? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I don't think so. Trumpism is specifically about the political movement associated with Trump and his followers, while this article is specifically about the phenomenon of comparisons between Trump and fascists. Di (they-them) (talk) 13:28, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Note: I became aware of this nomination from a Discord post.) Regardless of whether this article should exist, I am highly skeptical that any hook could pass WP:DYKBLP, "Hooks that unduly focus on negative aspects of living persons should be avoided." Note that that is undue relative to the person, not relative to the article, so the fact that this article is about Trump and fascism would not justify a hook about that topic, unless that is due focus for Trump. The article Donald Trump only uses the word "fascism" or "fascist" once, regarding Trump's rhetoric during his current campaign. Given that DYKBLP sets a higher bar for due-ness than standard editorial guidelines, I just can't picture any hook that would work, other than something completely tangential to what the article's about. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 21:25, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to be bold and mark this for closure, concurring with Tamzin's rationale. Considering the deeply polarized nature of American politics, the upcoming election (meaning this couldn't run immediately anyway), and DYKBLP concerns, the article seems like a bad fit for DYK regardless of hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:28, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, thanks. Di (they-them) (talk) 22:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:LEADIMAGE

The lead image of this article has been changed a couple of times. Can we choose one to settle the case? These are some that I found looking up "trump fascism" on Commons, the two first have already been inserted by other editors on this article. In my opinion, the black-and-white one with column the of the Trump International Hotel painted with the words "Fascist Int. Hotel" would be the best choice. Badbluebus (talk) 17:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like the old lady photo the most (second picture). It doesn't promote a specific website (1), mentions both Trump and Fascism (4 and 5 doesn't), and it is not overdramatized (3 and 4). Ca ^{talk to me!} 00:01, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bollox to the lot of you whiners, complainers and liars 2001:1970:519D:CA00:1543:E8E0:3255:A846 (talk) 05:29, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually on further examination, number 5 does mention fascism in an implicit way by depicting Trump as Hitler. I also support the 5th picture. Ca ^{talk to me!} 23:26, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the old lady is the best image. Simple and clear in its presentation, and doesn't promote a website as previously stated. BootsED (talk) 03:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I vote for the last photo:

JacktheBrown (talk) 14:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also vote for the last image, it does a great job of exemplifying the entire community involved in this concept Artem...^Talk 23:11, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SYNTHESIS concerns in Internment Camps section

Hi, I have recently started following this article. I think it is a very good article. I have concerns about the Internment Camps section. In my opinion, the Trump administration family separation policy led to very serious violations of human rights. And the detention facilities may well be an indication of fascism. That being said, it seems to me that the Internment Camps section contains some WP:SYNTHESIS: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources." T g7 (talk) 11:41, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More specific? Hyperbolick (talk) 17:44, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The premise of including the "Internment camps" section in this article is that Trump's use of internment camps is evidence that he has fascist tendencies. But only one of the sources, the one by Nathan Robinson (last reference in the section), states this. Most of the other references are describing the camps. Internment camps are not unique to fascist governments, as one of the references points out. Most of this section on internment camps amounts to the making of the logical argument that because Donald Trump advocates internment camps, and fascist governments use internment camps, this is evidence that Donald Trump is fascist. This argument is not made by any but the Robinson reference, so most of the section is synthesis. Wikipedia is not the place to publish original logical arguments. I think this section should be substantially cut down. In my opinion, the sentence containing the Robinson article should remain, as well as one or two sentences and references for context, but the rest is not relevant to this article. There are other Wikipedia articles that describe the camps and these may be linked. T g7 (talk) 07:16, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Only need the one source to tie it together for it not to be synth. Could be compressed, but enough background is needed. Hyperbolick (talk) 07:48, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are we not supposed to give relevant weight to sources used for an argument? One source seems hardly enough to justify such a lengthy inclusion, making it feel very much like a synthesized argument Artem...^Talk 22:22, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty sure more than one source calls these internment camps fascist. Hyperbolick (talk) 18:57, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Defining Facism

So much is political today, so we have to be cognizant of what information we are taking I when looking for answers and definitions. Most mainstream inter web actors such as Wikipedia are some of the worst purveyors of dis and misinformation. Here are the facts. FACISM: the term was first coined by Benito Mussolini who before he uttered this word was a dyed in the wool Socialist and named after a liberal Spanish leader and so in spite of the scholars, political scientists and frauds Wikipedia refers to when defining Facism it quite obviously is a left wing ideology born of a socialist leader. Period and it doesn’t take a university education to figure this out. However it doesn’t take take being objective and a hunger for the truth. Thank you my name is shamus Shoop and I will be glad to debate anyone that disagrees. 2601:447:C088:DAE0:6CE1:C6A2:C4C1:1B05 (talk) 08:23, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Facism it quite obviously is a left wing ideology. It is not recognised as left wing at all by academics and historians. — Czello ^(music) 08:27, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't this a bit out of date?

"Donald Trump is a fascist" is yesterday's ad hominem attack, and starting to look a bit discredited and long in the tooth.

Surely this article should either be deleted or merged with a new article called "Donald Trump and the oligarchy"?

Here's a start for you democrats:

https://theweek.com/politics/oligarchy-united-states-trump-rich-cabinet-administration-musk-billionaire-influence

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/trumpist-oligarchy-big-tech-takeover-musk-bezos/680503/

https://newrepublic.com/article/188467/trumps-musk-oligarchy-corruption

I'm sure someone could hash something up in a couple of hours? I'd hate for Wikipedia to miss this opportunity. BOOBOOBEAKER (talk) 10:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The existence of articles calling him an oligarch doesn't undo the other citations calling him a fascist. Additionally, I'm not sure the argument that it's out of date can wash when we have an abundance of sources from 2024. — Czello ^(music) 10:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also there is a preponderance of good quality, up to date, peer reviewed, academic work on Trump and fascism. A link to the Atlantic is not going to over-weight that. Simonm223 (talk) 13:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]