Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 183

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Archive 183

Biggest Political Comeback In US History

He staged the single biggest comeback in US Political History as quoted by Newsweek, CNN and others (they agreed greater than Nixon's in 1968) achieving the 2nd highest popular vote totals ever including a record amount of support from minority voters (Black, Hispanic, Jewish, Asian) than any other Republican in history. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 08:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

So what do you want us to say? Slatersteven (talk) 10:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

State the facts, they are written directly below the Topic Header. You can expand upon it if you wish by including the final official numbers for minority and popular vote totals but those will be another week or so away. Regardless of the timeline, he's already achieved both facts stated above about the popular vote and the minority vote. He's also achieved 2 out of the top 3 largest popular vote totals ever recorded in American history. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 11:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any RS that say this was the "Biggest Political Comeback In US History"? Slatersteven (talk) 11:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

of course, I'm not sure how to link articles on here but if you Google "Newsweek How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History" it will show the article written by Carlo Versano from 1 week ago. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

This would fail wp:v for your suggestion (clickbait titles are not RS). There is also here an issue of wp:undue. We can (at best say) "according the Newsweek he pulled off the biggest political comeback in modern US history". I am unsure, that this improves our article. Slatersteven (talk) 12:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure, another article you can Google (sorry about no links) is "Daily Express 8 greatest political comebacks in history: from Trump and Farage to Churchill and Lenin." Again, the topic header stated US Political Comebacks. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 12:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure, what? Slatersteven (talk) 12:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

CNN "How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback" article from November 6th also. There are many more articles from mainstream sources stating this again and again. That would be 3 direct, seperate resources reiterating the Topic Header. You could say, "according to many sources, Donald Trump pulled off the biggest comeback in US political history." 104.230.247.132 (talk) 12:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Popular vote total is trivial since as the population grows, the number is higher and higher. A more accurate measure would be % of the popular vote which Trump did not earn a significant majority of when compared to prior presidents like Reagan or F.D.R. Noah, BSBA^Talk 11:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider it trivial, there's never an infinite expansion of populations. Look at China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Many countries are shrinking in demographics. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 11:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The 2024 population is estimated to be 24 million higher than the 2020 population which is higher than the 2016 population.... Pretty much every election cycle prior has had more eligible voters. Having a larger percentage of the country support someone is more important than simply having the most. If F.D.R. won today by the same margin he did in 1936, it would be almost 90 million people. Noah, BSBA^Talk 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

By that logic it sounds like there should've been another 10+ million more total votes this election cycle than in 2020 but the fact is there wasn't. The truth is, Trump has won 2 of the top 3 total popular vote counts in history, and also defeated 2 Democratic candidates in a single election cycle. That's very relevant, and factual. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 12:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Not if there's lower turnout which is what happened this time around. He never ran against Biden in the general election so it isnt factual to say he defeated Biden. He only ran against and defeated Kamala Harris. Biden probably would've lost anyways but that's simply speculation, not fact. Noah, BSBA^Talk 12:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

if he was running against him up until 2 months from the election and then dropped out because of a soft coup caused by his disastrous debate performance (and terrible polling numbers), that would be defeating a candidate, 2 to be exact. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 12:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

We aren't going to state this because this is not what reliable sources say. Noah, BSBA^Talk 12:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources.' Biden continued his campaign after one of the worst debate performances in modern history and afterwards still continued to state he was continuing his campaign, until many Democratic donors, former and current House of Representatives and Senators demanded he quit. That would be a soft coup, especially withholding campaign finances to force him out. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 13:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback, CNN. Here's an excerpt, "Millions of Americans, including pivotal voters in Midwest and Sun Belt battlegrounds, cast ballots that clinched Trump’s historic comeback — one that promises to reshape American politics for the foreseeable future."

(To new editors, you can make a link like the above by writing: [https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/how-donald-trump-won/index.html How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback] , i.e. put the link, then space, then the title, all in a pair of brackets.)

Bob K31416 (talk) 13:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

This would broadly fall under WP:OR I would think, which is not allowed. At Wikipedia, we follow what WP:RS reports Artem...^Talk 21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

My suggestion would be "noted by media as one of the greatest political comebacks in American history." to the end of the sentence about the victory. I don't think it can go unmentioned, it is a very notable point in his political career, and also helps balance out the lead a little. Mb2437 (talk) 12:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a headline 68.57.163.100 (talk) 03:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I am now out of this with a confirmed no to the suggested edit, as what we seem to have is wp:or based upon various sources that do not actually say it was the biggest comeback in US history. Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Should be stated as "one of the greatest" anyway, stating it is "the biggest" outright would be fairly contentious. We typically apply this same nomenclature to great sportspersons e.g. Lionel Messi. It can't really go unmentioned entirely though, it is very widely sourced by major, reliable outlets, and is a major point in his career. Lead reads as incomplete without it. Mb2437 (talk) 12:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTOPINION: unless you provide reliable sources supporting your opinions, you're wasting your and our time. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump’s win is his greatest resurrection in a career of comebacks, Washington Post. "Trump’s political revival, unparalleled in U.S. history, follows a long pattern in his life of seemingly insurmountable, self-inflicted catastrophes followed by shocking rebounds."

How Trump pulled off an incredible comeback, BBC : "This is surely the most dramatic comeback in US political history."

Greatest comeback? Here’s how Trump stacks up in White House history, Denver Gazette. "President-elect Donald Trump pulled off what many are saying is the greatest political comeback in American history by winning a second non-consecutive term despite a felony conviction and the stain of Jan. 6."

Also, please see the Wikipedia guideline, Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers and policy Wikipedia:Civility. Bob K31416 (talk) 16:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump the ‘colossus’ is the comeback king of American politics NY Post. "We are in the midst of the greatest political comeback in American history — which follows, by eight years, the greatest political stunt in American history."

Donald Trump pulled off the ultimate comeback. See how we got here CNN."Despite a felony conviction, two attempts on his life and rhetoric that would have surely sunk any other political campaign, he has completed the ultimate comeback."

Trump Just Staged the Biggest Political Comeback in American History Newsweek."You are witnessing the greatest comeback in American political history.

The previous greatest comeback was by Richard Nixon, who lost his race for President in 1960, only to win decisively in 1968 and again in a 1972 landslide. After his resignation, he staged yet another extraordinary comeback, becoming the most influential former president America has ever had."

Back from the dead: Donald Trump is America’s political Lazarus The Hill. "He is the greatest comeback politician in political history. The closest thing to what Donald Trump has pulled off can be found in 1968 with Richard Nixon."

How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History Newsweek."Donald J. Trump completed the greatest political comeback in modern U.S. history in the early hours of Wednesday, claiming enough electoral votes to defeat Vice President Kamala Harris and return to the White House for a second term." 104.230.247.132 (talk) 17:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources. That's disqualifying right there. Sources Wikipedia accepts as reliable: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Four of the five sources you presented here are opinion pieces which are generally not acceptable, and one of them is from January 2024 and referred to his win in the Iowa caucuses as the "biggest political comeback in American history". CNN's ultimate comeback after having been "temporarily render[ed] [] a pariah in mainstream Republican politics after Biden took office" — I think that means final comeback, not single biggest. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

That something exists does not make it encyclopedic. Print media engages in sensationalism, esp. in headlines, to attract eyeballs and sell subscriptions. The Wikipedia is not that. Zaathras (talk) 22:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

In a review of what reliable sources emphasised when discussing Trump's win in a thread above (see here), one conclusion drawn was that from this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback. I would have to look at the sources discussing the win more closely to assess how to write it (historic, biggest, attribute or not etc.), but it should be mentioned in the lede to give due weight. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

NO the, lead is a summary of important parts of our article, at best this would warrant one line in the body. Slatersteven (talk) 11:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Slatersteven could you elaborate? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes (per wp:lead) "In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. It is located at the beginning of the article, before the table of contents and the first heading. It is not a news-style lead or "lede" paragraph." it only goes in the lead if it is a major part of our article. It is hard to see how a throwaway headline can ever be spun out into a major section. Slatersteven (talk) 12:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Slatersteven I imagine you think including the fact about being the second president to win non-consecutive terms should be removed on the same basis. Do you agree? I am not opposed to merely including that In the 2024 presidential election, Trump defeated the Democratic candidate, incumbent vice president Kamala Harris, winning the popular and electoral college votes.

I am not sure how to determine if his win should receive more context in the lede than that. If it should, it should be this fact, given that at this time, it is the one RS think is the most significant element of his win. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

If it is not in the body it should, not be in the lead, however, I am gonna suggest the fact this is an unconvertible fact, means it has a place in the article. Where as it is debatable if the claim this was historic does. I said I was out of here with a firm no to including this, it remains a no. Slatersteven (talk) 13:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

We don't have to describe it as "historic" etc, if that would be UNDUE. Simply "multiple media outlets characterized his win as a political comeback" could work. Whatever we choose if we choose to include something it should a) be in the body, b) reflect the emphasis placed by RS, including reflecting to how RS describe it as a political comeback. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I will also convert vote totals among minority voters (when they're fully counted and considered official) to percentages with a link to the official numbers to show his historic performance among minority voters for a republican candidate. This will add some balance to the sensationalized, prevailing media narrative of DJT's supporters being "white supremacist, misogynistic, Nazi, etc, etc" garbage they continue to spew forth while also showing a growing realignment of political bases within the parties. I can add this to whatever section it would fit best in to show a bit more fairness or balance to the article/page. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 09:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

IP, Yes it was indeed the biggest political comeback in US history. Would support a write-up of it, in the page. Afterall, it's only an opinion (also) that Trump is (for the moment, at least) considered the worst president in US history. GoodDay (talk) 13:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Users need to read wp:lead, the lead is not there for emphasis it is a summary of our article. If it aint in the body it aint going in the lead, and one line can't be summarized with one line. Slatersteven (talk) 12:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Then let's remove the election victory as a whole, and his being the second president elected to non-consecutive terms, as they're both only discussed in one line in the body... It's a highly notable point in his political career that is widely agreed upon by major, reliable sources. Mb2437 (talk) 12:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

BY all means remove them if you wish. But two wrongs do not make a right.Slatersteven (talk) 12:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:LEAD doesn't even support your argument. "As in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." This is a major point in establishing his political notability, and widely supported by reliable, published sources. Many of the points in this lead are also concisely noted in the body, exactly how this article is meant to be written given the extent of his career. Mb2437 (talk) 12:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Try the first line "In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. " and " (latter on) "Significant information should not appear in the lead, apart from basic facts, if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, although not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text.", This is not a "basic fact". Slatersteven (talk) 12:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

It is covered in the body, and should be expanded to include other sources. It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources. CNN ABC AP BBC Keep in mind I'm not agreeing with the "biggest" wording. Mb2437 (talk) 13:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources see Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not using that to argue its inclusion; it should be included because it's one of the most notable points in his political career, such to the point where it should even be in the lead. Their point was it was not a basic fact, and thus should not be included, which is simply false given that many reliable sources disagree. Mb2437 (talk) 13:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

So again, a firm no. Time for an RFC? Slatersteven (talk) 12:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Could we give this a bit more time before we escalate? I will have a go at working on the body. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Assassination attempts in lede?

Why not a brief mention of the two assassination attempts against Trump in the lede? Surely it's up there in notability with him serving two non-consecutive terms. Evaporation123 (talk) 01:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

There have been more then 2 John Bois (talk) 04:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking this earlier today. Feels odd that this is not mentioned. (Discuss 0nshore's contributions!!!) 15:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it was a very important event in Trump's political life, so it's correct to include this information in the lead. JacktheBrown (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Actions

Not living in the US, I'm not very knowledgeable about American politics, so it seems fair to ask users to list below all the racist, misogynist, etc. ACTIONS that Trump has committed (I see many controversial phrases said by him, but not racist, misogynistic, etc. actions); in reply to [1]. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Obviously, no response... JacktheBrown (talk) 09:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

1973: The US Department of Justice — under the Nixon administration, out of all administrations — sued the Trump Management Corporation for violating the Fair Housing Act. As action

1992: The Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino had to pay a $200,000 fine because it transferred Black and women dealers off tables to accommodate a big-time gambler’s prejudices, an action.

He has also been found guilty of sexual assault, an action.

All of those are action. Slatersteven (talk) 10:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

muslim ban formulation on lead

@Farkle Griffen Since I did one revert already on the page I will refrain to go further and I am opening a discussion to discuss that precise phrase.

This is the version that was recently added and that I find the best:

In his first term, he ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries

and this is yours:

In his first term, he ordered the "Muslim ban" limiting refugees

I really feel like the first formulation is extremelly more clear. It manages to say in a couple of words what that executive order was about, previous formulations and your latest are difficult to grasp for someone who is not already familiar with the topic.

Why did you feel the need for the change? And what do other editors think? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 23:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I also want to point out that the current lead is not too long. Editors have done an egregious job in the last few weeks to shorten it and put elements in the right place. So, in my opinion, that should not be an argument to prefer one over the other. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I support the original version. The new version is not clear enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree. The original version is more comprehensive at the cost of only a few extra words if length is concerned. Artem...^Talk 01:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I only re-added it because your edit summary removing it had to do with a different edit. You're still free to revert it now that you've included an explanation.

However, to respond to your post here, I don't see what information it loses, and it also removes a somewhat unclear link "ordered a travel ban" in favor if the order's common name.

If anything I think this is clearer. The point of the bill was to limit Muslim immigration, but, as previously phrased it sounds like he ordered a general travel ban that just so happened to limit refugees. Using the order's name adds information, and makes this point better and much more concisely. Farkle Griffen (talk) 01:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The way the first reads to me implies that it limits Muslim refugees from entering the country by placing the limitation on Muslim-majority countries. The second one, to me more-so implies an outright ban to all Muslim immigration which would in turn limit refugees Artem...^Talk 01:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

That's fair. I still think the item's name should be used instead of the current link.

But also, wouldn't this reasoning extend to the other items in the sentence as well?

"Trump ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries, funded the Trump wall expanding the U.S.–Mexico border wall, and implemented a family separation policy at the border, separating migrant children and parents." Farkle Griffen (talk) 01:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

We need to achieve a balance between brevity and accurately explaining the policies. "Funded the Trump wall" borders on too vague as well, and doesn't convey that the wall already existed and that he expanded its length. My preferred wording here is ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees, expanded the wall on the U.S.–Mexico border, and implemented a family separation policy. — Goszei (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

"We need to achieve a balance"

Are you suggesting there's a way to measure that balance? Or are you just saying yours is perfectly balanced and we should use that? Farkle Griffen (talk) 05:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

My proposal contains as many words as I think are needed to explain without being inaccurate or misleading. Other editors can disagree, especially on the "misleading" part, and propose their own. — Goszei (talk) 05:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with what Goszei is doing, trying to refer to policy not only with a catch all journalistic nickname but actually working on a proper, short summarization that fairly represents the policy. One is easier to do but actually useless to the reader, the other is complex but carries meaning. His latest proposition, ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees, seems good to me. Also because there were ecceptions on the list of countries targeted. I will edit that in and let's see if we can agree on it. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 11:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Muslim ban falsely implies that the ban applied to all Muslims, but ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries also misrepresents what the order actually did (it suspended all entry from those countries, not just refugees, which was a separate provision). If we want to indicate that the ban targeted Muslims (which civil rights organizations and similar groups claimed was its not-so-secret purpose, which was supported by reporting such as [2]), perhaps we could compromise with the wording ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees. — Goszei (talk) 01:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that that might sound too vague, too. How about

ordered a travel ban disallowing the people of several Muslim-majority nations entry into the U.S.

This will ensure that readers don’t think he ordered a travel ban against all Muslims and refugees. This could bring confusion that the ban disallowed access to all refugees and Muslims from countries that are not Muslim-majority. This suggestion rather clarified that the target was the people and refugees of Muslim-majority countries specifically, including Muslims and refugees. UserMemer (chat) Tribs 13:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I am personally against removing the word "refugee" which carries meaning, I also think that the word "targetting" is very good, it could find a spot in your version, which is just too long also. I don't think that we can go too deep into the nation part analysis of the ban, even though I find it relevant, some muslim majority countries were excluded for exemple. In the end I think the current shortening is both specific and open enough to click on the link and see more about the countries dynamic. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Watering down of criticism

Re; this reversion of my edits. Hi ValarianB, I explained my edits as aligning the text with the sources. If you would like to reinstate the previous version, ensure the text better aligns with the sources. For context, I changed a sentence from:

His embrace of far-right extremism and harsher rhetoric against his political enemies have been described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist

→ His harsher rhetoric against his political enemies has been described by some historians and scholars as authoritarian, fascist.

I also removed several sources for not verifying this information and the descriptor of embracing far-right extremism. I did this per my readthrough of the sources, seeing if they were verifying the text, seen below.

Extended content

Populist Fascist Authoritarian https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/27/magazine/trump-rallies-rhetoric.html Yes: NYTvoice Debated, some changed their mind as of 2021 https://www.vox.com/2023/11/14/23958866/trump-vermin-authoritarian-democracy Debated in 2021, Voxvoice yes https://www.axios.com/2023/11/13/trump-vermin-fascist-language-speech Some historians describing rhetoric 2024 https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/trumps-fascistic-rhetoric-only-emphasizes-the-stakes-in-2024 NewYorkerVoice NewYorkerVoice https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/donald-trump-authoritarian-second-term VanityFairVoice VanityFairVoice https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/07/trump-second-term-isolationist-fascism/674791/ SME scholar "Variety of academics" SME: Could be a fascist in 2nd term based on promises SME scholar https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-compares-political-opponents-vermin-root-alarming-historians/story?id=104847748 Ambiguous: some historians or historians generally https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/12/trump-racist-rhetoric-immigrants-00183537 Some experts Some experts "Nazi ideology" https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/10/trump-authoritarian-rhetoric-hitler-mussolini/680296/ SME historian https://www.axios.com/2024/10/11/mark-milley-trump-fascist-bob-woodward-book https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/ https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html

As seen, only four sources are discussing the attitudes of historians and scholars as classes re; 2024 conduct. I clarified that this was held by "some" scholars and historians; none of the sources made a stronger claim except ambiguously the ABC News piece on historians views of fascism; the rest all qualified with "some". Many sources didn't discuss historians or historians at all. Those four sources actually discussing attitudes among historians and scholars were retained. Two sources mentioned populism, both subject matter experts, although only one in the context of Trump's 2024 rhetoric and neither commented on beliefs among historians and scholars as a class. Populism as a descriptor was removed, it is already mentioned in a more relevant place earlier: Trump's political positions and rhetoric were described as right-wing populist.

Only one source supported the descriptor "embraced far-right extremism", and it was entirely sourced to the analysis of a non-subject-matter-expert journalist; insufficient for an extraordinary claim. Citing academic consensus to news pieces is already insufficient but is retained until further reading can be performed. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:35, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: I agree with you. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Restored. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Conflict of interest section

"During Trump's term in office, he visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days, one visit for every 3.4 days of his presidency" This includes his private residences, such as Mar-a-lago. This does not necessarily equate to a conflict of interest and should not be in the section. This might be substantial evidence enough for political op-eds, but not Wikipedia. It could be phrased like 'Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties'. In-fact, alot of this article could be written in a manner similar to this.

2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C (talk) 07:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The source does not say "Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties". It does, however, exactly say "Trump has visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days of his presidency, or one visit every 3.4 days. That means that he has visited on about two days of every week of his presidency." What you are saying it should be changed to is WP:OR and potentially WP:SYNTH. Unless, of course, you can provide a source that directly states it. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 07:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I am having some difficulty parsing this source. The main thrust of mentioning his visits to the private properties is that it was leisure when he said he would be busy, and that it was costly to the taxpayer to have him travel there. It seems to be a slightly unnatural reading to say him visiting a property every 3.4 days constitutes a conflict of interest. Tell me if I'm wrong. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

It relates to earlier in the paragraph, talking about how he was sued for violation of the Domestic Emoluments Clause and Foreign Emoluments Clause. It does read a bit strange when you only read that specific part of the source; it does go on later to explain more about this, so if anything, it should be expanded to include that as opposed to removed. I will however leave that to someone more experienced than me. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 08:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it's too SYNTHY to use it as evidence of him violating those clauses unless a RS makes that connection. What do you think? Or just slap on a and leave it at that? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That's probably the best option for now, if it weren't as late I'd probably go in and rework that section myself. But it seems sufficient to me. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Added it in Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, for one thing, he significantly overcharged the Secret Service for using his properties when they had no choice but to be there.[3][4] – Muboshgu (talk) 14:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this context. It does seem a bit small-fry compared to the other controversies listed. Why do you think a mention would not be UNDUE? You're more familiar with this page than I. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 15:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump overcharging the Secret Service demonstrates his attempts to enrich himself off of the presidency, and there are sources for this throughout the time of his first campaign, presidency, and Biden's presidency. Above I provided a source from 2022 and one from 2024. Here's one from 2016, one from 2017, and one from 2018. It's certainly DUE for a sentence in the body. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Unless I've missed it, none of those sources allege Trump was overcharging. Each just notes that the USSS reimburses private entities for the cost of bringing them around, but the difference in the Trump case is that he typically owns the private planes, hotels, etc, to which the reimbursements are paid. A storm in a teacup. Riposte97 (talk) 22:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Would you kindly briefly summarise the sources you mention and explain how you would use them? Thank you, Politrukki (talk) 14:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Deceptive claim and deceptive edit. The 2022 source is about allegations in a letter by House oversight committee chair, a Democrat. The 2024 source is about a House oversight committee minority report. The minority of Democrats does not represent the committee as a whole. Politrukki (talk) 19:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Deception is not my intent, nor is it an assumption of good faith in your part to suggest I am trying to deceive anyone. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I made no such suggestion. By "deceptive" I mean "misleading". I have not ascribed any motive, just stated the obvious. AGF works both ways. Politrukki (talk) 14:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

"Deception" implies intent. There's no AGF on vocabulary, unless English is not your first language. That I do not know. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Please just stop. Politrukki (talk) 15:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

When you're more careful in the language you use, I'll stop. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I do think the content you tagged should be removed as improper synthesis, as explained. Removing the tag certainly was not helpful. Politrukki (talk) 18:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Removal seems in order.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

What's the synthesis? Is that sources don't use the phrase "conflict of interest"? The Democratic minority report called it "the world’s greatest get-rich-quick scheme" and discusses the emoluments issue. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

We are talking about Bump's column. I do not see a hook for "conflict of interest" in that source – either explicit or implicit. Politrukki (talk) 15:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's a Time magazine piece that directly uses the term "conflict of interest" to describe the Trump presidency use of Trump Organization properties. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Where are you going with this? This sub thread is solely about Bump's column, about the content removed in this edit. Politrukki (talk) 17:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I can't speak to what was in the Bump column as it's paywalled, but I added sourced content about Trump properties being a conflict of interest and it was removed without an explanation, or at least I can't find it. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I did insert a link to an archived version without the paywall, but it was removed. I understand the page is near the WP:PEIS limit, but the solution is surely using #invoke or such rather than creating accessibility issues? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

This is the link to the archived version. Don't most editors know how to access the Wayback Machine and paste the url of a paywalled article into the text field? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Most? I doubt it. I think that's covered in Wikipedia Editing 302. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Muboshgu has waaay more edits than me and is an admin to boot, so I just assumed. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll go with "that's when the wayback machine was down". Or I just forgot to check it. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I added material with RS that made the connection between Trump visits and influence-seekers at his private residences. They're actually commercial properties where he also maintains a private residence. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

This edit was not restoration of "longstanding content" but a proposed replacement for it. Unfortunately the proposal is unnecessarily wordy. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Religion in Donald Trump's life

Hi. I added 57 words to the thin content of the Religion section. Since these words were reverted with concern about length and mentions elsewhere in article, please discuss the added content here and the quality of the Reliable sources involved:

1. Added that his family's church was "led by Norman Vincent Peale." -- This point is made by Kelsey Dallas, an award-winning religion journalist (Deseret News), in her article, "What has Donald Trump said about religion?" (7-18-24) and elaborated by the NYT article "Overlooked Influences on Donald Trump: A Famous Minister and His Church" (9-5-16) -- 5 words
2. "During his childhood, he also went to the First Presbyterian Church in Brooklyn and donated to it in 2012." -- This church affiliation is completely missing from the article. It is supported by the Kelsey Dallas piece and this article in The Atlantic: Green, Emma (July 24, 2016). "Donald Trump Grew Up at a Church That's Now Full of Immigrants" -- 19 words
3. Added that his new identification as a non-denominational Christian is "an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president." Source: Admin, C. (October 27, 2020). "Trump Becomes the First President Since Eisenhower to Change Faiths in Office". Christianity Today. More can be said about this salient shift, of course, but here adding only -- 10 words
4. "Trump appeals to Christian nationalists, according to a 2022 study" -- This key point is missing from the article. There are numerous sources that discuss his relationship to Christian nationalism, please Google News to confirm. Here I suggest an academic paper by leading scholars: Perry, Samuel L.; Whitehead, Andrew L.; Grubbs, Joshua B. (June 2022). "The Devil That You Know: Christian Nationalism and Intent to Change One's Voting Behavior For or Against Trump in 2020". Politics and Religion. 15 (2): 229–246. doi:10.1017/S175504832100002X. p.243 -- 10 words
5. "and in March 2024 he began to sell copies of a Christian Bible." -- Not elsewhere in the article. Source: Willingham, A. J. (March 28, 2024). "Why some Christians are angry about Trump's 'God Bless the USA' Bible". CNN. -- 13 words

Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life, especially because the personal is political for his relationship with Christian constituencies. In the current version, the word "Christian" only appears once in the article. I believe these 5 changes are written from a Neutral point of view, clearly Verified, and involve due Weight to a significant aspect of the subject's life. @Space4Time3Continuum2x, thanks in advance for comments. ProfGray (talk) 20:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

There is an argument for 2, 4, and 5 to be added. 1 and 3 are relatively trivial IMO. Cessaune [talk] 20:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I believe 1 is not trivial. The "power of positive thinking" is at the heart of Trump's philosophy. I believe it used to be in the article, but has been edited out at some point.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

1, 2, 3 are silly trivia. Ambivalent on the rest. Zaathras (talk) 01:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

4 seems more relevant. DN (talk) 01:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

There is too much religion material in the article. There should be something about his pandering to fundamentalist Christians , his strange messages to the Jews, and his attempts to monetize and brand himself with the Bible. Well, actually we do have the photo-op. SPECIFICO talk 01:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe the Bible is included in an article on Trump products.Jack Upland (talk) 02:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

You can now get the “The Day God Intervened” edition (custom embossed to in remembrance of the day that God intervened during President Donald J. Trump`s assassination attempt — English isn't the website's forte) of "the only Bible endorsed by" Trump, using his "name, likeness and image" under a license agreement with one of Trump's organizations, CIC Ventures LLC; $59.99, or $1,000 with President Donald J. Trump's Hand-Signed Signature. It's not a Trump-branded product, so it's mentioned in the last paragraph of The Trump Organization#Other ventures and investments. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: Hi there. Based on your suggestion more content about Christians, messages to Jews, etc., it looks like a typo and that you meant to write, "There is not too much religion..." -- is that right? ProfGray (talk) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I meant there's too much insignificant content about church etc and not enough about his use of religion in efforts to pander to various groups. SPECIFICO talk 02:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Space4Time3Continuum2x Thank you for the link to the godblesstheusabible website ... my brain just exploded.  • Bobsd •  (talk) 01:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

This edit moved Trump’s Sunday school confirmation from Religion to Early Life, and this edit removed Peale. Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life — he was and is unable to name a favorite or cite a single verse or passage from the Bible. I just moved Sunday school back into the section. I assume Sunday school was mentioned only because of contradictory Trump claims about his religion/religiosity. I can't think of any other bio mentioning it as part of early life and education, not even Mike Pence's. Was tempted to remove it but didn't because of this discussion.

• this edit in May removed Peale. The Trumps started attending Marble Collegiate Church because of Peale's fame and feel-good-about-being-rich sermons. Seems trivial to me.
• Donation to Brooklyn church: It was apparently only reported by one source, The Atlantic, at the time which also reported that As far as Patrick O’Connor, the pastor, knows, the Republican presidential nominee has never tried to visit the church where he grew up—or, at least, not in several decades. Who knows why he sent a check in 2012, and was it a personal check or a Trump Foundation check?
• Christian nationalism. There's one sentence in Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Campaign events: The Associated Press noted that "Trump's rallies take on the symbols, rhetoric and agenda of Christian nationalism." It's part of his rhetoric to please a subset of his supporters, so it would belong in Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign.
• "an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president" — trivial statistic. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems like Peale was an important influence on the Donald’s life, so I would strongly urge the reinstatement of that text. Jack Upland (talk) 17:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi. @Space4Time3Continuum2x, Thanks for your collaborative comments and for explaining your take to each of these points, which I appreciate, plus you looked up past edits. You also moved the Sunday school thing, even though you feel that it's unimportant. Your point (higher up) about the bible is clear and well-explained, so I get that (#5). If the donation is only one RS, then I can see leaving out of this article, though it may belong in a sub-article (#2).

• On Christian nationalism (#4), or Christian right / conservatism -- you suggest a different section, that's very helpful. There are numerous RS sources on his relationship to Christian movements, e.g., Trumpism article long section. It is deeper and earlier than the current campaign, so it might go under earlier under political career. But I'm puzzled because this article doesn't mention the political movement-building he has done, e.g., MAGA, Trumpism. and Christian conservatism. What's your sense of that? (FWIW, my #3 is related to all this, but less important than showing readers his evangelical coalition-building.)
• On Norman Vincent Peale -- Ok, it might sound trivial at first glance. But there are many sources that report, analyze, and opine about the relevance of Peale to Trump. Is it helpful if I give some links, or would that be off-putting here? CNBC 2020,NYT 2016, a Christian POV, biographer in Politico, WaPo 2016, evangelical POV, linking to his COVID approach (one of several), First Things conservative POV, and more.

Thanks for your consideration. ProfGray (talk) 19:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

A consensus appears to be forming for adding Trump's support of Christian nationality somewhere in the article. Peale influence: in an interview [Trump] described Dr. Peale as “a great preacher and a great public speaker” but said nothing about any religious beliefs he had imparted. (New York Times) Trump, in a telephone interview, ... said he was a young man when he first heard Norman Vincent Peale preach. “He would give the best sermons of anyone; he was an amazing public speaker,” Trump said. “He could speak for 90 minutes and people were upset when it was over.” Trump said he was drawn to stories the minister told in the pulpit about successful business executives “overcoming difficulties.” “I found that very interesting,” the billionaire said, adding that he and Peale became friends. “He thought I was his greatest student of all time.” (Washington Post) Sounds more transactional than faith-based. Also, are there any witnesses for Trump attending church every Sunday for 50 years? He has been known to lie ... Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Peale was a far-right Christian nationalist charlatan and a bigot whose model is reflected in much of Trump's present-day rhetoric. SPECIFICO talk 02:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I think his relationship with Peale was transactional, but that's no reason not to include it!Jack Upland (talk) 02:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

No, Peale was a hero and role model - like Roy Cohn, Putin, and Lechter. These icons impregnated the imagination of what would become today's Trump-2024. SPECIFICO talk 12:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on responses, I will aim to write something brief in the article about Trump's work with Christian conservatives and (arguable) support for Christian nationalism. Might be next week. It's fine, of course, if somebody else writes this into the article, please let me know via ping.

On Peale, it seems that he deserves at least limited mention as an inspiration (or other term) for Trump. I think this is easiest to put into Religion section, since Trump encountered hiim through church, but other suggested placements are welcome. Thanks for all your responses and finding further sources. ProfGray (talk) 02:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Space4Time3Continuum2x, in my comment above (Oct 9), I expressed what I took to be a suitable handling for Peale. While some users assumed Peale was trivial, I cited 8 different sources, including articles devoted to Peale's influence on Trump. Your comment mentioned NYT and WaPo. Specifico and Jack Upland affirmed the relevance of Peale. Please clarify your concerns, e.g., is Peale's influence not discussed by credible sources, should Peale's influenced be mentioned elsewhere in the article? Something else? Thanks. ProfGray (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

There's no consensus to add Peale. Only eight people participated in this discussion. Four opposed mentioning Peale, and one acquiesced to the opposed faction. Peale's page mentions Donald Trump, and Fred Trump's page mentions Peale's influence on Fred. Fred Trump was raised Lutheran, his children were raised in his wife's Presbyterian beliefs, became a member of the Norman Vincent Peale church of "positive thinking". Trump, who went back to living with his parents after he finished college, went along but seems to have come away with "assume the worst". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Factoid #2 needs to be removed and I'll acquiesce to those above who say that #1 and #3 should go. In general, it's more important how Trump is perceived by the religious right than trivialities about the few times he actually attended church. _pbp 20:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on discussion above, I'm adding a Christian nationalism sentence to a subsection on Trump's campaign rhetoric: "Without being conventionally religious, Trump used Christian nationalist rhetoric that portrayed Christians under siege in America and that promised its renewal as a Christian nation." This is based on the most cited authors on Christian nationalism in contemporary American politics (this article has been cited 500+ times): Whitehead, Andrew L., Samuel L. Perry, and Joseph O. Baker. "Make America Christian again: Christian nationalism and voting for Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election." Sociology of religion 79, no. 2 (2018): 147-171. esp pages 150-153. It'd be good to have at least one sentence on his coalition building with evangelical / conservative Christians. ProfGray (talk) 17:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

In line with the above discussion, I also added a sentence on Norman Vincent Peale in the "Religion" subsection. There are various sources, noted above, so I chose the liberal NY Times and the conservative First Things, which both give a pretty reasonable account of how Trump was influenced by Peale. ProfGray (talk) 18:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I reverted the addition of Peale since there is no consensus for it, and I replaced the material you added with the material we discussed here. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

I don't care to take on uninvolved closure here, but the last comment of any substance was on 30 October. What do the participants think? Close as resolved or no? ―Mandruss ☎ 19:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the closure. More discussion needed. Elaborating shortly. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 19:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Justifications for inclusion here are very thin. Relative importance of facts to the topic Trump and religion is assessed by editors applying editorial judgement as to whether facts are trivial, which is one of the weakest ways of ensuring NPOV. The first article linked makes an effort to contextualize facts in how important they are to Trump's religion overall, but it is a weak source, given "there is no consensus on whether the Deseret News is independent of the LDS Church." Better sources exist to assess what facts are significant re Trump and religion, the key one being [5] which "Provides a scholarly retrospective on the presidential legacies of... Trump [re; religion].Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Useful summary of Trump's relationship with religion in the context of his biography and politics (page 284) "Yet a closer look revealed that Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life. For several decades, the Trump family selected the Fifth Avenue church, Marble Collegiate, as a spiritual home. Marble’s pastor, Methodist minister Norman Vincent Peale, embodied an unorthodox, psychology-based Christian preaching, pro-business message, and connections to Republican Party politicians. After Donald Trump’s parents died, he frequently consulted a nondenominational, televangelist pastor Paula White. Meanwhile, Trump’s daughter Ivanka converted to Judaism and married the Orthodox Jew real estate developer Jared Kushner in 2009." Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Rewrote using above. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: you have not established consensus for this restoration; please self-revert. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Nikkimaria, happy to revert, before I do could you clarify what you mean by "establish consensus for this restoration"? I understand what constitutes a revert is contentious, but I also believe I was following bold, revert, discuss. This is as you deleted the discussion on religion, which has been in the article for a long time, even if not in this form, and I reverted it. If you were reverting my change in the content of the religion section, you would restore the previous content. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I reverted your addition of new religion-related content, and request that you get consensus for it before restoring. Is what you posted above a direct quote from the source? If so, your proposal also seems like very close paraphrasing, except for the vaguer last sentence. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria I've restored the text before my edit. My edit was not an addition but a replacement. The above is a direct quote and I spent a fair bit of time trying to reword but apparently did so poorly. Summaries of summaries are always difficult, I'll have another go.

You initially described the content as "overdetail", could you elaborate why you think so in light of the quote I provided? "Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life" (Carty & Rozell, 2023) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Not everything that can be sourced warrants inclusion, and this particular material doesn't provide a lot of concrete value - what does it mean to "play a significant role"? Having a Jewish family member doesn't mean that Judaism as a religion influences your views. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The chapter the text is summarising elaborates what it means to play a significant role. I'll come back to this in an hour or so when I have source access and expand. I'm unsure the article text will be able to convey this significance beyond listing significant facts without being very long, it may be eligible for a split into a standalone article on Trump's relationship with religion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Donald Trump has no significant relationship with religion, outside of occasionally using an upside-down bible as a political prop. No place in this article, and the idea of a standalone article is absurd. Zaathras (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Zaathras, I will be unavailable to discuss this for the next hour. For when I am available, would you be able to provide reliable sources of equivalent quality attesting that Trump has no significant relationship with religion? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

A few hours later, here nonetheless.

• Peale: Attended by whole family. Entrepreneurial approach to Christianity appealed to Trump and his dad. Peale presided his marriage to Ivana. Relationship expanded in 80s, such as using Peale as a character reference when entering Atlanta casino industry. Endorsed in Peale's autobiography. Business ethic in 80s reflected a secular interpretation of Peale's Christianity. Relationship to Marbles Church heavily emphasized during Marla scandal. Peale's successor officiated wedding to Marla.
• White: Frequently consulted White after parents death after reaching out to her in 2001, serving as a personal pastor. With Melania, stood by White during scandals (misuse of funds, second divorce, bankruptcy of church.
• Judaism: Ivanka-Kushner marriage notable in and of itself. Kushner's family contacts got Trump a speech at AIPAC, promoting Israel's interests. Coming up to 2016, Trump courted Jewish and Evangelical groups. Trump made inroads with the Jewish vote, who had traditionally been Democratic voters. Enrolled conservative Jews to leadership positions. Kushner is attributed as responsible for changing platform to Israel to rejecting Palestinian state promotion. Kushner's family had a long-term relationship to Netanyahu (he stayed in Jared's bedroom when Jared was a teenager?) so on.

Roughly rewritten proposal, clarifying "play a significant role": For decades, Trump and his family attended the Marble Collegiate Church, maintaining a personal relationship with Protestant preacher Norman Vincent Peale. Peale, who emphasized a pro-business, psychology-based ministry, is credited with influencing Trump's business ethic that emphasized "success" during the 1980s. Following his parent's deaths, the non-denominational televangelist Paula White served as Trump's personal pastor, being frequently consulted and sometimes defended by Trump. After his daughter Ivanka married Jewish businessman Jared Kushner in 2009, Trump successfully courted the Democratic Jewish vote, employing the help of Kushner and his family to write policy and reach Israeli organizations and Jewish voters. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

This still has a lot of detail that isn't needed, and I don't think Israeli policy belongs in a personal-life section - you could propose incorporating that particular piece in a rewrite of the existing Israel section. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

What information do you think can be cut while still establishing the significance in-text of these core facts (Peale, White, Kushner)? A rewrite may be the best to express this. I do think your suggestion to move some to the Israel section is a good idea: it would help the article be cohesive rather than the current siloing approach and the significance would still be established. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Based on the discussion above there does not seem to be consensus to include Peale at this point. "Following his parents' death, televangelist Paula White became Trump's personal pastor" covers White. I don't think anything regarding Kushner belongs in this context, though as mentioned might elsewhere. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I've challenged that consensus by introducing a source which supersedes those previously discussed. I agree with you that given Kushnerhis relationship with Judaism is largely significant relating to politics, moving it there would be the best place. However, I don't think as the article is written it fits in anywhere there at the moment, I'll work on rewriting it over the next few weeks. Until then, this is the best, albeit imperfect place. I can expand if this doesn't make sense. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, I favor mention of Peale (noted in a different thread, not the above discussion). Rollinginhisgrave, we have a Harv warning error because Carty & Rozell is unused (I'd remove it but wonder if it will be back soon). Trappist the Monk's script will show these errors. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

SusanLesch I did remove it, unsure how it's returned. I have got Trappist the Monk's excellent script, we can remove for now, not too much effort to add it back in. I may need to make a formal proposal below of the text change, although I hope Nikkimaria can weed out any excessive text before that. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Correction, I might be off by a generation, Nikkimaria. I am reading that Mary Trump says Peale influenced Fred Trump (Donald's dad) the most. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

In which case his article would be the better place for Peale. As to this is the best, albeit imperfect place - no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree and he's already there. I found one paragraph on p. 81 in Kranish & Fisher (2016) that says he was important, a mentor to Donald, who taught him to think of positive outcomes, but Peale wasn't really mentioned again. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:00, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

• his article would be the better place for Peale I am unsure the best way to respond to this. Could you expand on your reasoning here, preferably with reference to policies and guidelines?
• no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section The only relevant carveout for excluding DUE content I can think of here is MOS:TRIVIA, which notes Otherwise valid content should ultimately be removed if there isn't a good place for it. There is a good place for it here, a discussion on his relationship with religion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree that that is a good place for it, because what you're proposing is much more relevant to his political career than his personal religious views. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

What is written about his biography re; religion is not limited to his views, but its role in his life, including influence. We should reflect the emphasis placed by reliable sourcing rather than insert our preferences. It is a good place for a discussion on his relationship to religion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

There are a plethora of reliable sources that caution against conflating "relationship to religion" (whatever that means) and "position on Israel".

At this point it seems unlikely we will agree on position, so let's see if anyone else will agree with either perspective. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes no worries about us not agreeing on a perspective, I was making an effort to iron out the contents before making a formal proposal in a less impenetrable thread. I appreciate the note on cutting down the Paula White content, I'll sum up your thoughts in such a proposal. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Overdetail

@Nikkimaria, you removed this edit claiming overdetail. I disagree and think it adds much needed information to the page and is well-sourced. I copied over three sentences from the rhetoric page I thought would enhance the main page, but left the vast majority of information out, as I myself do not want to overdetail the main page. The content was copied within the relevant section. BootsED (talk) 02:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

There is already considerable discussion of rhetoric and related concepts incorporated into the rest of the article, including the claim that he is populist/nationalist, use of demeaning and derogatory language, and his rejection of the 2020 election results. If you wanted to reorganize the existing content to move it into the rhetoric section, I would have no objection, but I don't think we need to add new content there. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

My added content did not mention his rejection of the 2020 election results. I think you are referring to the mention of the "big lie" which in this case refers to the propaganda technique, which is why it is in the rhetoric section. The "big lie" mentioned elsewhere refers to the lie of a stolen election itself. You are correct that it is mentioned he is populist/nationalist elsewhere, but not including a mention of this in the section called "political practice" seems like an oversight.

The one sentence in question I added was: Research has identified Trump's rhetoric as heavily using vitriol, demeaning language, false equivalency, exclusion, and nativist fearmongering about immigrants, crime, and minorities as essential to his support. The section you removed afterwards was not added by me but already in the article for a while now, and was: "Trump uses rhetoric that political scientists have deemed to be both dehumanizing and connected to physical violence by his followers." Some research suggests Trump's rhetoric caused an increased incidence of hate crimes. During his 2016 campaign, he urged or praised physical attacks against protesters or reporters. Numerous defendants investigated or prosecuted for violent acts and hate crimes, including participants of the January 6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol, cited Trump's rhetoric in arguing that they were not culpable or should receive leniency. A nationwide review by ABC News in May 2020 identified at least 54 criminal cases from August 2015 to April 2020 in which Trump was invoked in direct connection with violence or threats of violence mostly by white men and primarily against minorities.

Going back in the page's edit history I see that the section you removed has been in the page for years titled "Incitement of violence" since at least 2022 (didn't want to scroll back further).

I believe that the high-quality sources which were added also warrant the source's inclusion. Claims over fearmongering, for instance, are not mentioned elsewhere but backed up with the research articles provided in this addition. So there is a lot of new material not mentioned elsewhere in the article as well.

Sources

BootsED (talk) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) BootsED (talk) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Slight clarification, when I say you removed the section I mean you removed the section as a standalone as it has been since at least 2022 and put it under "rhetoric". I believe it needs to remain as a standalone subsection as it has been for years. Not sure if that was clear from my prior comment. BootsED (talk) 03:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should be in this article. I would be fine with moving content from elsewhere in the article into the Political practice section if you feel that is a better organizational approach. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I also agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should not be in this article. The addition was just a sentence that mentioned that he uses the big lie and firehose of falsehood in the Truthfulness section. No further discussion of those two techniques are included on this page.

I don't see why mentioning Trump's populism/nationalism can't be mentioned in the Political practice section as well as where it is in the other sections of the page now. A quick search reveals it is only mentioned in the election of 2016 section, one section in his first presidency, and once in the election of 2024 section. If someone wants to go to the Political practice section to learn about Trump's politics, it makes sense for at least a mention of populism/nationalism to be there. Again, I agree we should not be going into great detail here, but I think just mentioning it would be due. This is what my edit does. BootsED (talk) 05:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

If it's already mentioned three separate times, we don't need to mention it a fourth - we need to cut down the existing mentions. Consolidating to the Political practice section would be a good way to accomplish that; adding without consolidating would be the wrong way to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I would be in favor of that proposal, but I am afraid it breaks up the "history" section of the article. If anything, parts of the "Election of 2016" Rhetoric and political positions section should be moved to the political practice section. I would be willing to work on this if you think this is the way to go. I don't want to break any preexisting consensus here BootsED (talk) 20:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I went ahead and consolidated the sections as you recommended. I am looking at it and I agree, I think it looks much better now. BootsED (talk) 21:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

BootsED, nice to meet you. Apologies in advance if I am mistaken. I was dumbfounded to see that you added 12000+ bytes and a whole lot of cites today. Was that really necessary? Sorry I'm relatively new at Donald Trump but can see much concern about this article being too long. I would feel like I was letting everybody down if I tried to do that. Please don't take offense, I would just like to know what's going on. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Susan, the edit in question re-added an edit that was under discussion. Some mentions of right-wing populism were merged into the political practice section, where some of the information that was already on the page in various places was placed. The bites included lots of citations, which should be viewed separately from word count. BootsED (talk) 23:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, BootsED, that explains it, good. Can you possibly use one or two good sources instead of five for one sentence? I have Jennifer Mercieca's book Demagogue for President: The Rhetorical Genius of Donald Trump if you need some help. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Susan, ideally no more than six sources should be used. The sources are placed within an efn template to avoid cluttering the page. If you'd like to add your source to the page with a short quotation you are more than free to. I am hesitant to remove sources as many of the sentences deal with contentious material that people will attempt to remove claiming that "two sources isn't enough to say this" or something of that nature. This is why for such claims, I prefer to include as many high-quality sources as possible. BootsED (talk) 23:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Clarification, I see you are referring to the media section edit. The two sources up top are directly related to the prior sentence section, and the remaining three are used as the direct sentence preceding it makes claims that are made within those three sources. There are only five sources used, in total, but they are split up to avoid having too many at the end. Other sentences on this page do a similar thing with a similar amount of sources. BootsED (talk) 00:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

BootsED, we all need to do our part so this article won't break. True perhaps that a lot of content seems to be stuck around 2016-2020. But where on Earth do you get the idea that ideally no more than six sources should be used? For one sentence??!*%?#!!??? Think about it. This article was ready to break before Mr. Trump's first term. Can you imagine the number of people who would like to add their bit? I encourage you to help with §PEIS revisited, yet again instead of using the available citation space for what you'd like to say (that is, roughly, 10 citations out of 37 available to everyone). And no, thank you, I don't want to add my source; my priority is consolidating and cutting. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

BootsED, what I proposed was consolidating the existing content, not re-adding the edit that was under discussion. Given that, and given that it's a violation of the 24-hr BRD, that needs reverting ASAP please. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your clarification. With that said, I believe this content should be added to the page, as it expands upon the information presented within that section and uses much higher-quality sources than the existing content within that section. BootsED (talk) 00:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for reverting. If you believe the existing content is poorly sourced, that's something that should be addressed separately from the question of adding more content. On the latter, the point of summary style is that the expanding should be accomplished in the subarticles - as above, that seems the better place for elaborating what specific propaganda techniques and rhetorical patterns are employed. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. With that said, I disagree that the content should not be re-added to the page, as it adds summary-level detail to the page on topics not covered in the article itself. The content added is a summary-level detail, and it does not go into further specifics left to other pages. In regards to the propaganda techniques section, it merely mentions the techniques, it does not describe or go over them in detail. That detail is left for the more appropriate page, as you yourself mentioned. BootsED (talk) 00:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I think what the section needs, rather than simple additions, is a more careful rewriting of the existing content to be a more coherent summary of the subarticles. The current section, and the proposed additions, read as strings of claims. Do you feel the current lead of Rhetoric of Donald Trump is an appropriate summary of that article's contents? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it is okay, but could be more concise.

In regards to this page, I've noticed a lot of content seems to be stuck around 2016-2020 with not a lot of updated sources used. I'm still unsure why the page says things like Trump is described as a right-wing populist. I think that since a lot of those sources and sections were written we have enough sources to say that he is a right-wing populist and such.

This is part of the work that needs to be done to make the page more updated. With his second presidency coming up my understanding is that a lot of descriptions over his fearmongering, falsehoods, populism, and "political practice and rhetoric" need to be made more "universal" in summarizing his campaigns and presidency, and move away from providing specific instances and sources that only describe his 2016 campaign and first presidency. This is why I sought to have my additions use better peer-reviewed journal articles more specific to the man and less about specific incidents. BootsED (talk) 05:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I think I get what you're saying. So I believe that my three sentences I added to the political practice and rhetoric adequately summarize the content of the Rhetoric of Donald Trump page. The lead summarizes it but in my opinion does it in a superfluous manner. This is why I believe my edits are due and provide a summary-level overview of this topic in a condensed form. BootsED (talk) 22:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I was told by another respected editor of the six citation limit. Other sentences on this page use similar amounts of citations, not just mine, so please don't make me out to be the villain here. I have explained before that my additions improve the page and could potentially allow for other lower-quality citations and sentences to be removed. I am actively working to improve this page, and if you actually have any constructive feedback on my proposed additions rather than waving them away by saying you don't like them because they have too many citations I would appreciate the feedback.

Frankly, this page needs a lot of updating and if any updates are immediately removed because people say it's too long this page with athropy into irrelevance. There is also, of course, the risk that people will use "length" concerns to remove material that they personally don't like, so I think this page and its editors need to get real here and start making progress on this front to head off these concerns.

I have started this work, proposed some high-quality additions with multiple peer-reviewed journal articles to possibly replace some lower-quality sources and sentences to better provide a summary on this topic. I encourage others to do the same. BootsED (talk) 20:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

There's no need to spin logical fallacies (the bandwagon fallacy and the argument from authority). I have nothing against you or what you wish to add to this article. We just happen to be faced with limits and arguing won't convince you, sorry to say. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

While I agree that updating is warranted, making the page unreadable or even unloadable is also a concern; it needs to be a high-level summary, and additions need to be much more judiciously made in concert with removals. I have used some of your proposed content to update the section along those lines. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I appreciate your edit and thank you for your patience. I hope I didn't come off too harshly during our discussions. I also think that some potential parts of the page that could be condensed further is in the foreign policy section by merging some of the content about his policy with various countries to a more high-level overview. BootsED (talk) 02:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Lead to body links

Are we doing lead to body refs now? Not that I'm opposed, been supporting them for years but was told that we couldn't use cross-refs that look like links to other articles because reader confusion or something. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:29, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Misogyny and cabinet appointments

A misogynist is a person who hates or discriminates against women.[6]

In this article there is the section Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct.

Here are some of the positions where Trump has appointed women to cabinet positions in his next administration so far: Attorney general, Secretary of Homeland Security, Secretary of Labor, Director of National Intelligence, United Nations Ambassador, Secretary of Education, Surgeon General.[7]

I don't know of any sources so far that reconcile the characterization of Trump as a misogynist and his cabinet appointments of women, and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources so that the article can be appropriately edited. Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 17:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Bob, this is a "I have black friends so I can't be racist!" fallacy, as women can be misogynist too. It is not a prejudice exclusive to men. But even beyond that, the president-elect nominating women to his administration does not counterbalance his past words and deeds that numerous reliable sources have characterized as misogynist. I don't know of any sources...and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources suggests that you have already formed a personal opinion about content to add to a BLP, and hope it can someday be validated. That is literally a textbook example of confirmation bias . Zaathras (talk) 18:11, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

This being said there is an issue in misogyny being in wikivoice while every other prejudice/label is attributed. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, this does just seem like opinion not fact. This isn't supposed to be gossip. Certainly some think he is sexist. But some think he isn't and Wikipedia isn't really supposed to be elevating particular opinions over others. The allegations/liability in sexual misconduct is fact, that bit is solid. Liger404 (talk) 23:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPOV. Wikipedia content policy is complicated, nuanced, and not always intuitive. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but that you're exhibiting very little understanding of policy. For starters, what "some think" is irrelevant. A prime example: "Some think" the 2020 election was stolen. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Zaathras, There appears to be an inconsistency that you may be able to explain: How can someone who supposedly hates or discriminates against women, appoint women to the above mentioned cabinet positions? Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 10:19, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Well if we are going to use OR, someone has to make the tea. Slatersteven (talk) 11:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I can tease no valid question in that sentence that relates to anything encyclopedic, sorry. Zaathras (talk) 02:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

"facilitating the January 6 United States Capitol attack"

Right now the lead states that Trump facilitated the Jan 6 attack. He has never been convicted of such an act and the lead doesn't give a source. Just seems to be an opinion. Trump has not been convicted of any such crimes in relation to Jan 6. Liger404 (talk) 09:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Just for starters, you may have noticed that the lead doesn't give any sources. Related citations are in the supporting body content. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

well the Stormy Daniels comment does have a link. But regardless, this claim doesn't re appear in the body and so ultimately remains an unsupported opinion/false accusation. Trump has never been found guilty of any such offence. Liger404 (talk) 22:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

An encyclopedia is not a court of law, and the substance of our articles are not dependent on judicial verdicts. The statement in the lede is supported by the info found in Donald_Trump#January_6_Capitol_attack. Zaathras (talk) 14:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I haven't looked at this issue and the sourcing closely, but per WP:CRIME: A living person accused of a crime is presumed not guilty unless and until the contrary is decided by a court of law. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:36, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell that is just circular support. Yes that article does say " including facilitating the January 6 Capitol attack." but does not have any source to support that. Indeed I would say that article requires the phrase changed for the same reasons. Liger404 (talk) 11:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

This comes under MOS:WEASEL: "words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated." "To facilitate" means to make something easier. The Capitol police for example facilitated the riot by having ony 500 police present. Congress facilitated the riot by not declaring Trump elected. Of course neutral editors would not put that into their articles without explanation. We should just explain how Trump made the riot easier without using big words many readers may not understand. TFD (talk) 22:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

The cases were dismissed

"Special counsel prosecutors dismissed the two federal criminal cases against Donald Trump in separate court filings on Monday": [8]. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:39, 26 November 2024 (UTC)