Jump to content

Talk:Democratic-Republican Party/Archive 5

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1←Archive 3Archive 4Archive 5Archive 6

Requested move: → Republican Party (1792–1824)

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. The argument that the shorter form may confuse the modern republican party with the jeffersonian party is persuasive. We should aim for clarity over confusion. I also note that, while there is a little more support for Jeffersonian Republican Party, there doesn't appear to be consensus for that name either (that surprised me but I am just the argument evaluator!). --RegentsPark (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Democratic-Republican Party → Republican Party (1792–1824) — Jefferson, the leader of this party, called it "Republican." D-R is a minority form among modern historians, in modern popular usage, and in the usage of contemporary newspapers. Kauffner (talk) 00:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

After reading through the lengthy debate on this issue, I give the following summary:

1) "Republican" is the usage favored in the recent major historical works on the party, including The Age of Federalism (1995) by Stanley M. Elkins and Eric McKitrick; The Rise of American Democracy (2005) by Sean Wilentz; Joseph J. Ellis (several books); and Undaunted Courage (2003) by Stephen Ambrose. When there is a need to disambiguate between this party and the modern Republican Party, the pros use "Jeffersonian Republican", not D-R, e.g. Gordon Wood's Empire of Liberty (2009). On Google scholar, Jefferson Federalist "Republican party" -"Democratic Republican" gets 7,350 hits, while Jefferson Federalist "Democratic Republican Party" gets 923 hits. This comparison counts scholars who use both terms as D-R users, but still shows an overwhelming advantage for "Republican Party."
2) As far as popular usage goes, there are 569,000 Google hits for Jefferson Federalist "Republican party" -"Democratic Republican" vs. 23,900 for Jefferson Federalist "Democratic Republican Party". Again, this comparison counts those who use both terms as D-R users, but still shows an overwhelming advantage for "Republican Party."
3) Using Niles Weekly Register as a guide to contemporary usage, "Republican" was two to three times more common than "Democratic". "Democratic-Republican" was used only occasionally. The caucus that renominated Jefferson in 1804 was the "regular republican caucus" (Niles, Vol 25, p. 258), the closest I could find to an official statement of the party's name.
4) Names may be used by historians' that were unknown to contemporaries, e.g. "Byzantine Empire." But writers who use D-R often give incorrect or confusing explanations for it. Some claim that the name evolved from Republican to Democratic-Republican, e.g. Britannica. Others think that the Democrats and Republicans were factions within a Democratic-Republican Party. So the D-R usage both reflects and perpetuates misunderstanding of the party. (For the record, party members used "Republican" and "Democratic" interchangably. The compound form reflects the need of later authors to disambiguate from the two modern parties.)
5) The No. 1 reason people are interested in this party is because Jefferson belonged to it. To Jefferson, the party was "republican." There is a 14 MB archive of Jefferson's writing online.[1] In his first inaugural he said, "We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists."
6) For those who favor "Jeffersonian Republican Party", I note that this form gets only 274 hits on Google Scholar. Kauffner (talk) 09:47, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Oppose This name change could not fail to give the impression that this party is the direct ancestor of the modern republican party, which it wasn't. Weren't you in favour of Democratic Republican before? BillMasen (talk) 11:52, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment I don't know what I wrote that gave people this impression, but, yes, I have noticed a whole series of messages blaming me for the D-R title, both here and on my talk page. The modern Republican Party was intentionally named after Jefferson's party. Kauffner (talk) 14:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment Yeah, I know. But just because the modern Republican party wants to confuse people into believing it was the descendant of Jefferson, that doesn't mean we should help them out.
It's clear that we have to make a choice between several terms used by the academic community. Why not choose the one which isn't ambiguous? As you've demonstrated before, the name D-R was used at the time and has been used by scholars both, and moreover it can't be understood to mean anything other than what it does, in fact, mean. Someone stumbling across the article Republican Party (1792—1824) could well think it was about the history of the modern party, which it isn't. BillMasen (talk) 16:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Weak Oppose I think article text should use "Republican Party" most of the time but that the title, which needs to distinguish this party from the later one, should stick with its current title, especially since the beginning and end dates are debatable - Kevin Myers notes above that the Library of Congress gives 1828 as the end date. "Democratic-Republican Party" is, at this point, perhaps less used than "Republican Party." But we're not deciding between Democratic-Republican Party and Republican Party. We're deciding between Democratic-Republican Party and Republican Party (1792-1824), and the latter is not used by anyone that I'm aware of. john k (talk) 14:23, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment No one else uses "Republican Party (United States)" either. It is standard Wiki practice to use a "disambiguating tag in parentheses" in order to create a unique article title, which is required for technical reasons. See WP:PRECISION. Kauffner (talk) 14:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
This is true, but a commonly used form without parentheses is better. I'll note that my opposition is weak, though. I'd not especially mind the move. john k (talk) 23:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Support. The very nice summary by Kauffner of current and past usage shows that a name change is needed to bring this article title in line with modern and historic labels for the party. I previously wrote that D-R was adequate, but Kauffner has changed my mind. Additionally, during a recent rewrite of Whiskey Rebellion I became convinced that the title of this article was misleading other editors. Browse the "history" of the Whiskey Rebellion article and you'll find a number of editors confidently informing us that no, Jefferson's party was not called "Republican", which of course is erroneous. A formulation of Republican Party (some sort of disambiguation) would be more clear, accurate, and in line with Wikipedia naming conventions: whether that's Republican Party (1792—1824), Republican Party (1792—1828), Republican Party (Jeffersonian), etc., is open to question. —Kevin Myers 16:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
P.S. These should be en (rather than em) dashes, i.e. – Republican Party (1792–1824), Republican Party (1792–1828). —Kevin Myers 16:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I dislike the ugly "Republican Party (1792—1824)" (with arbitrary dates that come from no RS) -- and please note that political scientists are the ones who use the D-R form and they use it in all their college and high school AP textbooks. I recommend "Jeffersonian Republican"--it avoids the arbitrary dates and makes the link to Jefferson and his era explicit. Rjensen (talk) 23:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I certainly support "Jeffersonian Republican" too. Any of these options are better than D-R. —Kevin Myers 02:04, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment, oppose move to Republican Party (1792—1824), support move to something like Jeffersonian Republican Party: Republican Party (1792—1824) would be misleading because, although the modern Republican party is named after the Democratic-Republican Party, it is not the same political party. Personally, I've always heard it referred to as the Demoratic Republican Party (no hyphen), but Jeffersonian Republican Party would be an appropriate name. --- cymru lass (hit me up)⁄(background check) 16:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Um, I think this belongs under the "Contested" section of the Requested moves page. --- cymru lass (hit me up)⁄(background check) 16:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Your claim that it is "the most readily recognizable" is unsourced, and, as far as I can tell, not rooted in a knowledge of the reliable sources. Unsourced speculation doesn't do us much good here, and should be disregarded without prejudice. —Kevin Myers 04:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Recent scholarship does not trump a couple centuries of usage. --Orlady (talk) 14:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC) I suppose I'm showing my age, but when (as a U.S. kid) studied U.S. history (not U.S. political science, but history) in school and in college, this party was universally identified as the "Democrat-Republican" (or minor variants "Democratic Republican") Party. I find that this is the usage that appears in the historical Congressional biographies (see Henry Clay), the "Social Studies for Kids" website[2], the ushistory.org list of signers of the Declaration of Independence[3], and the U.S. government's america.gov website[4]. My paper reference book entitled "Dictionary of American History," published in 1978, has an entry for "Democratic-Republican Party" that indicates that this group was commonly called "Republicans" and states "Jeffersonian Republicans" is an alternate name; it has an entry for "Jeffersonian Republicans" that points the reader to the "Democratic-Republican" entry; and there is no mention of this entity under "Republican". I am prepared to believe that many modern historians would prefer "Jeffersonian Republican," but because long and widespread usage has favored "Democratic-Republican", that should continue to be the primary term in this encyclopedia. --Orlady (talk) 19:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
You could use that line of reasoning to argue that "African American" should be renamed "Negro". After all, when I was a kid, my text books called black people "Negroes", and recent scholarship does not trump a couple centuries of usage. But of course, that argument would be silly, unless you want to write an encyclopedia that is deliberately outdated. Perhaps you do, but I don't.
Moreover, I question your undocumented assertion that "long and widespread usage has favored 'Democratic-Republican'". Perhaps this is true, but the reliable sources seem to suggest otherwise. Jefferson called himself a Republican. The standard scholarly source a century ago was the work of Henry Adams; he always called Jefferson's party the Republican Party. The standard scholarly source 50 years ago was the work of Noble Cunningham; he called Jefferson's party the Jeffersonian Republican Party. The current standard scholarly sources, as people here have pointed out over and over again, don't use the term you remember from your childhood text books. Yes, we can find some older tertiary sources that use the term, and some web sources like "Social Studies for Kids", but those aren't the best sources to base our decisions upon. —Kevin Myers 04:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
By the way, when they revised the Dictionary of American History in 2003 (the 3rd edition), they renamed the "Democratic-Republican Party" entry to "Jeffersonian Republicans" (or "Jeffersonian Republican Party", I forget which). I realize that this will probably have no effect on the curious argument that modern scholarship is not particularly important, but I mention it just in case. —Kevin Myers 13:41, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Alternate proposal: Move to Jeffersonian Republican Party

Several editors have expressed support for renaming the article Jeffersonian Republican Party, the name many scholars use to disambiguate Jefferson's Republican Party from Lincoln's Republican Party. It has the advantage of being less cumbersome than the disambiguation proposed above, and more historically accurate than the current title. On the minus side, it's not as well known as the named preferred by scholars, which is simply the "Republican Party". This subsection is meant to gage support or opposition for renaming the article Jeffersonian Republican Party. —Kevin Myers 04:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Support. I believe that either option gives us a title more in line with our reliable sources. —Kevin Myers 04:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Support I think it solves the problems and is very close to standard usage in the RS. Historians often use "Jeffersonian Republicans"; they drop the "Jeffersonian" when they are dealing entirely with the Jeffersonian era so that the J term is implicit. Rjensen (talk) 05:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Oppose per my comments above. Powers T 12:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Support "Jeffersonian Republican Party" -Korea gets about the same number of hits as "Democratic Republican Party" -Korea. J-R is straightforwardly a historian's name, so perhaps less confusing than the ambiguous D-R. Even if the reader has never heard the name before, he can figure out that it is Jefferson's party. Inside the article, I'd like to see the name changed to "Republican" used. Kauffner (talk) 16:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Support I still think D-R is better, but at least this avoids confusion with the modern party. BillMasen (talk) 16:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Oppose; I'd much prefer the first suggested move to this one. john k (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
note that the D-R form is the common usage by political scientists, and historians rarely use the D-R form . Rjensen (talk) 17:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Support--see my comments above —Preceding unsigned comment added by cymru.lass (talk • contribs)
Oppose. As described above in the section on the "Republican Party (1792–1824)" proposal, I believe that "Democratic-Republican" is favored by long-standing and widespread usage. However, if a different term is adopted, "Jeffersonian Republican Party" would be a far better choice than "Republican Party (1792–1824)". --Orlady (talk) 19:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Let me try to shed light on the usage differential by political scientists and historians. Since the late 19th century, political scientists have preferred the D-R form; they usually include a short statement about the party in their textbooks and civics guides; they rarely do extended research as long as an article or book. On the other hand historians strongly preferred the R or JR formation, and they do write the scholarly books and articles -- the basic RS on which this article is built. Given the widespread usage in political science and government books, it is essential to keep a cross reference, and that is not at issue. At issue is whether this is primarily a history article based on the extensive in-depth historical scholarship, or a stub that reflects the brief coverage in government textbooks.Rjensen (talk) 19:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Conclusion of discussion?

Aren't these discussions supposed to be closed after 7 days? It's been almost 2 weeks and it's clear that there is no consensus for the move. BillMasen (talk) 23:33, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
There's a huge backlog at WP:Requested moves.... --Orlady (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
When someone gets around to it, they should keep in mind that, according to the closing instructions, "the quality of an argument is more important than whether it comes from a minority or a majority." The Wikipedians who favor a move have, on this and previous occasions, cited many reliable sources to support their argument, and many more could be listed. Aside from Orlady, those who favor the current title have not really attempted to make a case or cite any reliable sources. Since an opinion is not the same thing as an argument, I think it's pretty clear that there's a consensus of informed opinion to rename the article. —Kevin Myers 04:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
You can't be part of the disagreement and simultaneouly judge the 'quality' of the other side's arguments. The point is, D-R is used in the sources, and it's just naive to expect sources to give a definitive answer to every question of this kind. So we have to use our own judgment. BillMasen (talk) 12:40, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Of course I can comment on the quality of the other side's arguments. If the other side does not engage with the reliable sources when making its argument, an essential part of my argument is to point this out. I'm a big believer basing Wikipedia decisions upon a survey of the reliable sources, even when it means that I must change my initial opinion, as has happened here. I'm always a bit surprised when I encounter Wikipedians who don't share this philosophy. —Kevin Myers 13:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
As has been demonstrated, D-R is used by reliable sources, among other names including Republican. My point is that they do not give a clear answer as to what title should be used. So why not use the only one which is neither misleading nor ambiguous? Given that the sources are capable of supporting either title, we have to choose somehow. BillMasen (talk) 14:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

IP Vandals

Make it semi-protected! There has been some IP vandals now. SomeDudeWithAUserName (talk) 22:20, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Small font when printing

Why is the font so small (compared to other wiki pages) when I print this? (Mozilla Firefox) Dave C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.144.156 (talk) 20:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Ambiguous source citations

Several sources in this article are cited in common shorthand, like so:

Chambers, 80.

While this may be acceptable formatting for Wikipedia, it introduces responsibilities in the editors to ensure the citations make sense. I just repaired such a citation that failed to identify which of several listed sources it referred to:

Adams, 207–208.

which could have represented any of three cited works by someone named "Adams": two from Henry Adams (listed at the top of the lengthy References section), and one by John Quincy Adams (the correct one) at the very bottom. (And this assumes that no one deleted any other "Adams" works from the "References" section, which can happen due to simple error or vandalism.) It took some effort for me to find that the third is the correct one.

I resolved this problem by updating the reference to be a full citation. I did this for several reasons. First, it's not only unambiguous, it's also not likely to be made ambiguous by people adding other references by people with the same surname. Second, it avoids the problems of desynchronized "Notes" and "References" sections that frequently occur with the continuous, multi-party editing of Wikipedia. Third, there's no need in a digital work like Wikipedia to "save space" by abbreviating. It does reduce clutter, but this advantage, in a section that very few people read anyway, is more than offset by unanticipated editing problems often caused by crowd-sourcing. (The full citation also made it easy to add a Google Books link to the actual quote for easier verification.)

I'd ask other editors of this article to review all the abbreviated cited references to ensure there are no other ambiguities or outright mistakes, and consider using more detailed citations to avoid future problems like this. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:08, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Party name in article

I suggest that the name "Republican Party" or "the party" be use internal to the article, esp. on the tables. Aside from the reasons given above (it was contemporary usage, it is the usage of modern historians, etc.), it is a standard practice to use a shorter form after the first reference. If "D-R" is required in the title to disambiguate Jefferson's party from that of Lincoln and Reagan, that is certainly not true inside the article. Kauffner (talk) 08:42, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I think that is the correct approach. (The "D-R" title probably won't last in the long run as we attract more editors who are familiar with the reliable sources.) How do you feel about occasional alternatives within the text, for the sake of stylistic variety, such as "Jeffersonians" and "Jefferson's party"? —Kevin Myers 13:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Kauffner & Kevin Myers on this.Rjensen (talk) 07:10, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I think we should call them D-R all the way through. But as long as the page has the right title, it doesn't matter that much. Moreover, apparently it will make you all very happy to do it your way, and I'm sick of arguing :) BillMasen (talk) 11:26, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I see that User:Kauffner, a primary advocate of renaming the "D-R" party the "Republicans", has subsequently been banned for sockpuppetry. I suggest that this entire argument needs to reopened in light of that. 70.131.148.238 (talk) 08:00, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Party Name

I know this has been discussed to death, but I would like to make a case with links in favor of using the "Democratic Republican" term for Jefferson's party. The term is used by the | White House, by | Monticello, and most importantly by sources in the Library of Congress. A search of their Jefferson Papers for the term "Democratic Republican Party" will produce primary documents that use the term: party members use the term "Democratic Republicans" in their correspondence | here and | here, and Jefferson uses the term | here and | here. There are literally hundreds of primary documents at the Library of Congress Jefferson Papers | query that show the contemporary use of the term. The terms "Republicans" and "Democratic citizens" also seem to be used - as the party wasn't a modern, branded mass political party, names seem to have been used interchangeably - but the term "Democratic Republicans" should not be dismissed as some sort of archaic fringe term that is only used by a subset of political scientists. There is actual historical use behind that term.Konchevnik81 (talk) 20:41, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Konchevnik81 is relying on his OR into primary sources--that's great but the Wikipedia rules say we have to follow the Reliable Secondary Sources (RS). Basically the problem is that today most historians use "Republican Party" and while the political scientists use the D-R version. I favor the R version since this article relies mostly on historians. Rjensen (talk) 20:47, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
But how is using primary documents available free online OR? Literally, the Library of Congress has letters written by Thomas Jefferson himself and scanned online that are addressed to the "Democratic Republican" party. That's pretty backward if primary sources are somehow not considered as reliable as secondary sources (which for some reason do not include the official White House historian, or the Monticello Foundation, or Encyclopedia Britannica, all of which refer to the "Democratic Republican Party"). Also, I would say that "most historians" sounds suspiciously like weasel words. I'm not arguing that the "Democratic Republican" label should predominate, but I think it definitely deserves a stronger mention in the lede as a term used contemporaneously, and by current histories.Konchevnik81 (talk) 21:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
OK, I consulted the Wikipedia: No Original Research page. That's not what I'm doing. I'm not basing the entire argument on primary sources: I've cited two (admittedly short) secondary sources from organizations that are pretty reputable when discussing Jefferson (I can provide a Britannica link too, although I understand that Britannica is not looked upon very highly in these parts). The primary sources are backup for the claim that the term has wider use than solely among modern political scientists - the claim of which currently has a request for a citation in the article. The primary sources are being used with care, and with minimal interpretation: the letters literally are addressed to or from Democratic Republicans, usually on the first line (it's also used in the name that the Library of Congress uses to sum up the letters' contents). As I wrote, I just think that the term "Democratic Republican" deserves an equal footing as a term used for this party, and should not be dismissed without a citation as a term invented in later periods by political scientists, and that is one no longer used by historians.Konchevnik81 (talk) 22:03, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
the problem is that old primary documents are very easy to misinterpret, as Konchevnik81 has done here. For example TJ never called his party the D-R party--though he did address a couple letters to groups that used D-R in their title. The vast majority of local Republican groups never used D-R, although a few did. The compromise worked out over time was to use D-R in the title and R in the text of this article. As for historians' usage, look at the titles in the bibliography for solid evidence. Rjensen (talk) 22:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
But that's a greater interpretation of the primary sources than I'm doing. How can Jefferson never call his party the "Democratic Republican party" and at the same time write letters to "Democratic Republicans". That doesn't even make sense. He's using the term, as are people considering themselves members of the party, even if other terms like strictly "Republicans" are simultaneously being used. "Democratic Republican" was a term in use during the first decade of the 19th century. And the White House blurb is from Michael Beschloss. That's not "solid evidence" that a well-known and respected historian of presidents uses the term to discuss the party?Konchevnik81 (talk) 22:10, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
"The vast majority of local Republican groups never used D-R, although a few did" Then why not write this (in a more neutral way) in the lede, instead of an uncited claim that "Democratic-Republican" is a term invented by political scientists?Konchevnik81 (talk) 22:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
OK, I did that. Rjensen (talk) 00:47, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
So, Primary sources can be used to demonstrate that Jefferson used "Republican" (as is currently the case (see note 1), but it's naughty OR to use them to demonstrate that Jefferson used "Democratic Republican"? that's blatant POV pushing. 70.131.148.238 (talk) 07:56, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
"D-R Party", stress here on the word 'party', I think was first used in the 1830 period to designate the party we now call the Democratic Party. Jefferson, the other party leaders & newspapers did not call it the D-R Party, although there were a few D-R local clubs. I have not seen any group that called itself the "D-R Party". I don't think Jefferson ever used "D-R Party". However in modern scholarship political scientists use the "D-R Party" because it keeps their comparative tables easier to read. Historians usually use "R Party" because that was its name when it was active. Jefferson when writing to club members of course used the club's official name but notice that neither the club nor Jefferson used the term "D-R Party." Rjensen (talk) 08:57, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Requested move September 2014

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 13:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Democratic-Republican Party → Jeffersonian Republicans – This U.S. political party, active from 1792 to 1825, was rarely if ever called “Democratic Republican” when it existed, but rather "Republican." You can search either the [http://www.amazon.com/American-Aurora-Supressed-Beginnings-Newspaper/dp/0312150520/ref=sr_1_1?ie= Philadelphia Aurora] or the Nils Weekly Register, both major newspapers affiliated with the party, to verify this for yourself. In his first inaugural, Jefferson said, “We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists” -- nothing about Democratic-Republicans. The classic treatment of this party is [http://www.amazon.com/The-Jeffersonian-Republicans-Organization-Williamsburg/dp/0807807303/ref=sr_1_1?ie= The Jeffersonian Republicans: The Formation of Party Organization, 1789-1801] (1958) by Noble Cunningham. The proposed title let's the reader know that the literal name of party is "Republican" while disambiguating Jefferson's party from the modern party of the same name. The current name suggests that Democrats and Republicans were once part of some larger party that then split apart –- This is, of course, nonsense. The proposed title is also very widely used, as you can see from this ngram. On Gscholar, "Jeffersonian Republicans" -Korea" gives you 1,310 post-2000 hits, "Democratic-Republican Party" -Korea gives you 1,270. OK, let's cut to the pinging: Rjensen, Konchevnik81, BillMasen, Kevin Myers, Orlady cymru.lass, Powers, john k. La crème de la crème (talk) 11:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Democratic-Republican is more commonly used. The White House, for example, uses the term. As does Britannica. Calidum Talk To Me 12:00, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
    • On the page you link to, the party is mentioned three times. They use "Republican" twice, "Democratic-Republican" once. "Republican" is clearly the correct name, what Jefferson always called it. That should count for something. Update. I noticed that the White House site describes Madison and Monroe as "Republican" only.
  • Note that it's the current name for the party, not the historical one, that's important here. Regardless, this very article points out that "Democratic-Republican" is not without contemporary evidence. Anecdotally, the current title is the one used by my textbooks in school, but I can't argue that the proposed title isn't equally valid. Powers T 17:16, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I don't have anything against anachronistic names. The problem with D-R is that most of the people who use this name don't realize it is anachronistic. They assume this was a name the party called itself, which leads to a lot of confusion. It really wasn't, as you can see here. La crème de la crème (talk) 03:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. Republican is far more commonly used by scholars and historians who know all about the period and actually write about it (see the book titles in "Further Reading"). Political scientists (and interns at the White House) who specialize in today's politics like the D-R variation because they go for tables that compare different parties and don't want two "Republican" parties to mix up the students. The J-R version solves their problem. Rjensen (talk) 18:40, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep the Democratic-Republican name as the title, but make sure that the other name gets prominent billing as an alternative. Democratic-Republican is the name I learned in school, it's what Wikipedia has used in the past, and I find it to be more common as the primary name in online sources. In addition to Britannica, there's Social Studies for Kids, Princeton University, the Gilder Lehman Institute of American History, U.S. History in Context, Ohio History Central, and jrank free legal encyclopedia. Yes, there are other credible websites that use "Jeffersonian Republicans", but they seem to be less numerous, and I find that some of them use the word primarily to refer to Jefferson's contemporary supporters, and only secondarily on the political party (for example: [5]). --Orlady (talk) 03:49, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Jefferson's party was "the Republicans," as any history of the period will tell you. I added "Jeffersonian" to avoid confusion between this subject and the modern party. The RM is not based on the idea that "Jeffersonian Republican" is the common name! La crème de la crème (talk) 04:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Outside the American perspective, what about Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis, and Brits? They have lived under the Queen for years and know what a "republican" is, but they may not be totally familiar with "Thomas Jefferson" or "Jeffersonian" etymology. The title change may confuse overseas readers, so the simple current title and the party's premise should help them acknowledge one of political parties of the United States (besides Democratic Party and Republican Party), which has been a role model (good and/or bad) for world politics. --George Ho (talk) 04:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose despite the nom. Google search, history books more often use the current title. Editor La crème de la crème's point about They assume this was a name the party called itself, which leads to a lot of confusion. That is what the article itself should dispel. "Jeffersonian Republicans" has its own anachronistic flavor and its own likely uninformed reader assumptions, and is no better in that regard. --Bejnar (talk) 15:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • There seems to be a psychological block of some kind regarding this issue. The ngram and gscholar results show pretty conclusively that D-R is not the most common form of the party's name. Both the White House site and Britannica use "Republican" more than they do D-R. Yet editors are somehow able to look at both of these pages and see only "D-R." Dictionary of American History, the standard reference work in this field, uses "Jeffersonian Republicans." Recent histories that use "Jeffersonian Republican" or "Republican" include works by David McCullough, Stephen Ambrose, Sean Wilentz, Joseph Ellis, and Gordon Wood. Wood's [http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Liberty-History-Republic-1789-1815/dp/0199832463/ref=sr_1_2? Empire of Liberty] (2009), probably the most highly regarded work on this period, has a chapter entitled, "The Emergence of the Jeffersonian Republican Party." La crème de la crème (talk) 03:45, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • You know what would be nice? If people read the nomination before voting. It includes an ngram comparing the commonness of the the current name and the proposed name -- which you obviously didn't notice. I have now developed a more sophisticate ngam. It shows that the two names are about equally common overall. As I showed in the my previous post, the authorities in this field, the people who know what they are talking about, don't use D-R. La crème de la crème (talk) 00:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "Jeffersonian Republican" is a description, not a proper name. The party is either called the Republican Party (which would require significant disambiguation) or Democratic-Republican, which, while anachronistic and arguably misleading, is also both a name and completely unambiguous. The article should explain that "Democratic-Republican" is a post hoc name of convenience, like Byzantine Empire, and it should generally use "Republican" in the text, but I still think it is, all things considered, the best title to use. john k (talk) 12:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - majority of reliable sources use Democratic Republican Party. GoodDay (talk) 19:09, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment I did another post-2000 Gbook analysis. I'd estimate that the party is called D-R about 30 percent of the time. (Compare here and here.) According to the ngram given above, the usage of "Jeffersonian Republican" is about about equal to D-R, so another 30 percent. The remaining 40 percent of the time the party is presumably referred to as "Republican" without a qualifier. La crème de la crème (talk) 08:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
  • Oppose - I think it reads fine as it is, and I think the comparison with "Byzantine Empire" is apt. Jeffersonian Republicans is alright, although someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not sure that was actually a more common contemporary name (if people were really going to invoke Jefferson, they'd say "a Jefferson man" or something similar). Definitely NOT "Republican Party" with the arbitrary dates, because that implies that the article (erroneously) covering a particular period in the current Republican Party's history. I'd also say that it's too vague, considering that there were groups like the Old Republicans during most of that time, and the National Republicans towards the end of that period. But I think that the article is clear that D-R is mostly an anachronistic term used for clarification in certain writings, but that had some usage during the time period concerned. Konchevnik81 (talk) 14:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Democrat Party

There are many historical revisions going on here when we try to refer to the Democrat Party as someone or something else. The Democrat-Republicans are the same party as the Democratic Party or "Democrats". They dropped the name "Republicans" well prior to the new party that was created before the civil war. This article shouold be moved under the History section of that page, or at least references to it being the precursor to the current Democratic Party should be restored. Let's not revise history, but show the ugly truths for what they are. - Topher 129.29.211.115 (talk) 12:52, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

lots of mistakes here starting with "Democrat Party." needs a reliable source. Rjensen (talk) 16:33, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

classical liberalism

Should we add classical liberalism to ideology? The first stone (talk) 07:26, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Lead section rewrite

Some material in the lead section introduces concepts without fully explaining how they are relevant or connected to the subject of the article, or uses confusing language; for instance: the part about "one faction in Congress", the name "Democratic-Republican" vs. "Republican", and the whole paragraph about an "'Anti-Administration' secret meeting", which needs to be better substantiated. I think it's important to "state the obvious" with details such as these, and include the basic Five Ws: Who, Where, What, Why, When. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

the lede introduces the topics covered in the article. That's were people go to answer 5-w's Rjensen (talk) 10:04, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Democratic-Republican_Party/Archive_5&oldid=1264979109"