Talk:Date of the birth of Jesus

CALL FOR VOTING

To all contributors of this article:

I would like you to vote on my edition of this article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Date_of_birth_of_Jesus&oldid=1191857682

I basically did two things: 1. I created a separated paragraph for the opinion of Ian Paul, an Evangelical Christian author, that was on the same paragraph containing information about the perspective of a BYU University scholar on the date of birth of Jesus Christ. I cannot tell how relevant the opinion of Ian Paul is. But, I don't mind those two lines that offer information about it. 2. I quoted more faithfully the sources that were used for the LDS perspective. As it was previously composed, the source and the words of the article did not match. For example, the date suggested by the author of the paper was not even on the article.

It has been claimed by User:ජපස (who also likes to appear as "jps") and User: Viriditas that BYU scholars are not reliable because they are "contractually obligated to tout the line of the LDS church". Now, I need them to either prove it or remove the accusation.

I will wait for three months so discussion can go on. After that, I will read the comments in favor and against and consider presented evidence. If it cannot be proved that these scholars are "contractually obligated", I see no reason why the religious ideas of this Church cannot have their own sub-section here. There is a section on the Islamic view. Are the sources non-reliable because they are Muslim? George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

We don't vote, we discuss. There is a difference. Viriditas (talk) 22:49, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

We do both. I don't want people to simply vote. I want to know their reasons to either support this edition or not. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Please follow the instructions for an WP:RFC. Viriditas (talk) 22:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I will leave those intricacies to you. I'm a contributor here and an engineer at other places, not a bureaucrat. That would be a nice Christmas gift (assuming you believe in Jesus Christ). If not, it's alright. Someone else might show some charity. I think I did my part so far. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 23:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

You’re kind of doing it again. If you want to file an RFC, which is the process you have expressed interest in, then follow the instructions at the link I gave you. It’s not up to others to do it, it’s up to you. Viriditas (talk) 23:20, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

By the way, the author I am quoting has a Wikipedia article dedicated to him, Jeffrey_R._Chadwick. I guess you will have to remove all BYU scholars from Wikipedia, too. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 01:30, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

See WP:IDHT. Viriditas (talk) 02:44, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Maybe you can also apply that principle to yourself. You are not understanding or making an effort to understand. My goal is not to show that the point of view of this author is the right and that the ideas of the rest of authors quoted here are wrong. I understand you are telling me that consensus is necessary to make the edition. If this point of view were AGAINST the official position of The Church, then you might say the edition is not "FINE" (as there is no adherence to the "consensus" in The Church) and even so, if it was explicitly expressed in the edition that what is written represents his ideas; and, if the author is very well known in his field, I see no reason not to mention them.

I think I will have to be more specific with you because I really don't understand you.

My edition is wrong because (choose one or more, please):

1. The credibility of the author is non-existent. (If you choose this, please, explain why does he have a Wiki-article). If you can prove that Jeffrey R. Chadwick is in no way to be trusted, all the other options below would make no sense and we should modify his article on Wikipedia so the world may know no one must trust him. For example, all articles related to pseudoscience explicitly state they constitute pseudo-science.

2. His point of view does not represent the "official" position of The Church. (Assuming that Jeffrey R. Chadwick is a reliable researcher. If not, then, even I would oppose to the addition.) I can specify that his research does not possess a canon level right now. Many things stated via revelation by The Church long time ago have been confirmed by science years later. For example, The Church received a revelation in 1833 about many health issues. One of them was the consumption of alcohol. Many scientists through decades have advocated for its moderate consumption. But, at the beginning of 2023 the WHO published its new official position that corroborates what the members of The Church already new (https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/04-01-2023-no-level-of-alcohol-consumption-is-safe-for-our-health). So, as in time science might corroborate his research, I think it might be useful to consider his ideas now / "in advance". It would be a case of going in the opposite direction. It was revelation confirmed by science for my example. And here, it might become science confirmed by revelation in the future.

3. Other churches do not believe the same. Is this the consensus you are talking about?

4. Other reasons. Please, explain. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 01:29, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

In answer to your choices. Articles should exist because the subject is notable. This is independent of whether the subject, if human, is credible (see articles about crooks or even respected scholars who made major errors in their scholarship). The standard for references is whether they have been accepted by other people in the field (e.g., published in a peer reviewed journal) not whether the author is credible (author being credible is just the first hurdle). Or at least accepted by a significant number if there is a dispute (in which case all sides with significant backing should be presented). In your case you want to present the LDS theological view(s) of the date (both year and season/day of year) of Jesus's birth into an article which is already a bit of a mess. Given that the LDS is a relatively minor religious group within Christianity, views of some individuals within it are probably not significant enough to include in this article unless the view is significantly different from traditional Christianity and has significant denominational backing; it should also be short. A better place might be the article on Beliefs and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If nothing else, the editors there are more likely to be able to judge significance of various views within the denomination. Erp (talk) 08:10, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I think I'm ok with this, but you need to make it much clearer that this is largely based on LDS-only scriptures. Johnbod (talk) 00:49, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Explicitly religious texts used for historical claims

I have removed a number of sources from the lede of the article which were published in the context of religious belief or theology. Such publications are not reliable for claims as to historical plausibility, determination of precise dates, or contentions as to what "most biblical scholars" believe. We would want to make sure not to include, for example, those biblical scholars who take on faith their claims. The pastor at the local US megachurch does not count towards the countenance of what we can say about such ideas in the assertive voice of Wikipedia. The rather remarkable paucity of good sources being used in the first paragraph or so gives me great pause. I think this entire article may be suffering from poor sourcing, but it will take quite a bit to go through and determine that fully.

To be sure, religious and theological publication can be used to identify the beliefs of those who are writing such treatises. Those may be relevant to an article such as this, but they absolutely must be couched as religious beliefs or theological conceits. They cannot be used as sources for statements of fact.

jps (talk) 15:56, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Thk u. First time I've read this article seemed the "Bible 2 to" me. gtp (talk) 18:00, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Jesus birthday

Suggest that Jesus was born on the first day of Tishri the Hebrew new year only makes perfect sense as all of God’s word is perfect.date can be documented by Zachariah’s service in the temple in the known course of Abiah.Also the shepherds would not have been in the field tending sheep in the winter months of December 108.147.2.64 (talk) 14:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Pseudohistory. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

User:Asarlaí's recent edits

Hello User:Asarlaí, I hope that you are doing well. I have made adjustments to your recent edits in the article. As with the "history of religions hypothesis" section, any criticism in the "calculation hypothesis" section should be included in a single paragraph at the end of the section. I have made these changes. Additionally, we cannot simply label an academic as a "Christian writer". It is best per WP:ATTRIBUTION to list his name before the claims. I have restored the previous wording. Thank you, Anupam^Talk 21:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi Anupam. The "Christian writers" wasn't a reference to Adam English, but to the Christians mentioned by Norman Bonneau: "Christians conjectured that the priest Zechariah was serving in the temple on the Day of Atonement". But I see how it could seem to refer to modern writers, so thanks for pointing that out. I've re-worded to make it clearer. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 13:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your efforts! Yours sincerely, Anupam^Talk 13:46, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

On another note to this, I'm uncertain about proclaiming the calculation hypothesis as "a minority viewpoint" in scholarship with our primary source on this being 30 years old. While it's possible this was a minority view in 1995 when Roll was writing, does this actually reflect the modern state of the scholarship? Do we have more recent sources from scholars to attest to this? 2600:8800:280:33A3:B5C3:106:19FA:BE78 (talk) 15:33, 15 December 2024 (UTC)