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Animation: American / Warner Bros. Low‑importance

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A number of disputes as to the canon of certain DC comics-related animated series have surfaced in the DC animated universe article. A series (and/or its animated movie counterpart) shall not be included in the article unless it meets most of the following criteria:

The series in question has at least one crossover episode with a known DCAU series. Static Shock, for example, wasn't considered canon until its first Batman crossover episode.
The project at hand must heavily involve either Bruce Timm or Paul Dini, the fathers of the DCAU (not including spin-off films from a DCAU series).
The series doesn't directly contradict established DCAU continuity. The Batman, for example, directly conflicts with Batman: The Animated Series, so it cannot be considered canon.
The series utilizes the same basic Bruce Timm animation style as the rest of the DCAU series. Teen Titans uses a radically different animation style from Justice League, for example.
The series must use the same key voice actors that were used in the various DCAU shows. Some exceptions apply, but if Batman appears, for example, he must be voiced by Kevin Conroy.
A series/film/comic/etc. must be released before it can be added to the article. Speculation on whether an upcoming project is canon or not is not a verifiable fact, unless verifiable sources exist stating prior to release that it is in fact canon.

The following notes have been condensed from previously discussed topics:

Neither The Batman nor Krypto the Superdog are considered DCAU canon, as they each take place in their own unique continuities. So they, their various animated film spin-offs, and their comic series' will not be added to the article.
Batman Beyond, The Zeta Project, and Static Shock are confirmed DCAU canon via crossovers, references, allusions and staff confirmation, regardless of fan acceptance.
Most DCAU comic series can be considered as canon, as long as they do not expressly contradict a televised episode. In many cases the stories actually expand upon events show in the various animated series and films. However, not every story in every issue can be canonical - some are expressly out of canon - and very few (excluding mini-series and annuals) have actually been confirmed as in-continuity.
Teen Titans is highly debatable, and no sources exist which directly confirm or deny its continuity, and so unless a new source appears, the article should remain ambiguous to its canonicity.
Superman: Brainiac Attacks is not currently considered DCAU canon despite many points that suggest it could be. Until solid staff confirmation as to its place in canon is released, it will not be added to the article.
The Legion of Super Heroes may be annexed into the DCAU in the future, but as of right now its canonicity, like Teen Titans, is ambiguous (See here for details).
It has been confirmed by Bruce Timm in a previous interview that the DCAU does not age in real time, which in turn makes the so-called Tim Drake/Batman Beyond timing paradox moot.

Aging in Real Time

According to one of Timm's post as wf.toonzone.net, the DCAU doesn't age in real time, easily making it possible for Tim Drake to still be a boy in BB: Return of the Joker.

He is a boy in the flashback or in the real life, when he is about 60s? I didn't understand what you want to say. Batman tas

A request concerning the DC Adventures Comics

I was wondering if there's be consideration on making and entire page dedicated to the comics based on the DCAU. If yes, I have some info I'd be ready to supply to it, such as:

A. DC Comics Characters who didn't appear in the DC Animated Cartoons.
B. Trade Paperbacks and Digests.
C. Links to unused plots/altered stories.

Anyone up to it? 71.115.210.70

Well, each of the DC Adventures series' have their own pages. Why not just add your information to the various DC Adventures series' articles? Chances are if you made a whole new page to deal directly with the things you listed (and what we spoke of above) it would be deleted by someone for being original research (aka non-verifiable facts).

Wiki page for the DCAU's Batman

As a tribute to Kevin Conroy and his legacy, I think it'd make sense if the DCAU's Batman got his own wiki page. 98.165.84.45 (talk) 19:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

would need significant coverage of the specific character, and enough content to warrant a split from the other articles Indagate (talk) 21:46, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If DCAU Batman gets his own page, then the same must also apply to the DCAU Joker. It's only fair. (118.148.75.0 (talk) 23:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC))[reply]

Article Cleanup

This page needs some cleaning up. First off, not everything is in the continuity is included. I don't know who keeps taking out Batman and Harley, but it's a part of the continuity. I don't like the film, but I'm less a fan of revisionist history. The film was marketed as a Batman: The Animated Series movie. Also, if Bruce Timm says something is in continuity, why is there an asterisk to it? Then there are things that were never said to be in continuity considered to be (the Batman Beyond short, the various pitches/test reels/short pilots), and then there's offshoot material and whatnot.

Also, the future of the DCAU needs to be revised or removed. There's a quote from 2009 about whether there would be future projects, and then again in 2015, and one from 2018 from Conroy when the last project in the DCAU was in 2019.

So yeah, this clearly needs to be cleaned up. Zero X Marquis (talk) 19:41, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Batman and Harley Quinn has been stated to take place in a similar but different universe from various quotes from the creative team.

From Bruce Timm:

However, while Batman and Harley Quinn is definitely a spiritual successor to Batman: The Animated Series, whether it’s technically canon by letter of the law isn’t entirely clear, Timm admits.

“I don’t really know. I personally kind of think that it is, but I’m not actually in control of what’s in continuity and what isn’t because there’s been several other classic Batman animated-style movies that I didn’t have anything to do with, so technically they’re canon even though I didn’t have anything to do with them, so technically this could be continuity or it could just be head-canon. I don’t know.”

https://comicbook.com/dc/news/batman-and-harley-quinn-dc-animated-universe-continuity/

From the co-writer, Jim Krieg:

"This is kind of a strange, red-headed nephew of Batman: The Animated Series, but don't show it to your kids thinking that it's Batman: The Animated Series, it is its own thing, kind of extrapolated" (from the Blu-Ray special feature).

"I would say if it's in a universe it's in a B:TAS Universe or B:TAS adjacent, because it's a slightly sillier universe."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1aD0W85TcE (at the 1:19 mark)

From the movie's composers:

It was a very different project for him, and it's his story of course, and it was a very different project for us because we are still in a similar universe to Batman: the Animated Series, which we started doing so many years ago together, and this one has so many more comedic elements in it

https://bleedingcool.com/movies/batman-and-harley-quinn-composer-michael-mccuistion/

Walterwhitehartwell (talk) 25:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most of these comments note that they're in a similar universe or state that they're not stating that they don't have the authority (which I'd argue Timm does, but I digress) to state that they're in the same continuty. However, again, the links I posted as sources show that WB considered it a sequel/movie of the Batman: TAS universe.

If you're going to split hairs, show me sources that state any of the material is in continuity with anything else, as tonally, almost every show is different than the others (even Batman: TAS and TNBA). 216.181.52.75 (talk) 02:18, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? You literally just said it yourself. The above aforementioned movies are stated to be in a similar universe. That doesn't mean it's the same. If it was, they wouldn't feel the need to make those statements. Also, there is no actual source for WB considering the movie to be part of B:TAS.

As to your second point, here's Bruce Timm being pretty clear if the Subzero movie is canon with B:TAS, and if TNBA is in continuity with B:TAS.

On if the Batman and Mr. Freeze movie is canon (Back Issue, no. 99, Sept. 2017, pp. 35–49)

"We wanted to adapt the Mr. Freeze story that Glen Murakami had drawn for the holiday special-but unfortunately, in between BTAS and TNBA Boyd Kirkland and Randy Rogel had brought the 'late' Mrs. Fries back to life in their movie SubZero, so we couldn't. Yes, SubZero was absolutely canon, even though I had no involvement in the project."

On the art style change between BTAS and TNBA and its continuity (Wizard Magazine interview)

"By changing the show and making it fresh, that was actually one of the things that The WB was excited about. They didn’t just want more Batman: The Animated Series. They wanted to freshen it up. So part of their brief for us was to freshen up the show. And we wanted to do it anyhow, but we do want to keep it in continuity."

"Even though a lot of the characters looked drastically different than they did in the previous show, for the most part we just figured they were the same character, and we didn’t want to go into the whole big explanation of why Penguin suddenly doesn’t have webbed fingers anymore. It’s being drawn by a different artist now. It’s like John Romita drew the last issue, now Carlos Meglia’s drawing it." Walterwhitehartwell (talk) 21:22, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your comment estabalishes that Warner Bros. is the deciding factor for continuity, not Timm. WB advertised Batman and Harley Quinn as a Batman: The Animated Series film and Fatal Five as a JLU film. As both are supported by Timm, do not contradict any events in of the DCAU, and that the DCAU itself does not have an established work for continuity, you're going to need to produce some more to say that they shouldn't be in continuity. Even looking at the comment alone, the first part of the comment you provided by Timm could indicate that TBNA isn't the same show. Oh, and top of all that, even if we accept your premise that Timm's word as author--not publisher--is enough to establish continuity, as the other comments related to Batman and Harley Quinn show that he sees it as part of continutiy, just that he concedes that he isn't the owner of such, would mean that it is (again, for the record, I hold that WB gets to establish what is and isn't).

Oh, and for the record, there is nothing to say that Batman: The Mystery of Batwoman connects to continuity, there are HUGE discrepancies between The Zeta Project and the rest of the continuity, and even Justice League and Static Shock don't fit nicely without retconning a thing or two. Zero X Marquis (talk) 21:07, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but this all reads like denial. I've provided multiple, clear as day quotes from people who worked on the project to show that Batman and Harley Quin's canonicity is dubious or not canon at all.

You have showed zero sources claiming WB advertised Batman and Harley Quinn as a B:TAS movie or JL vs Fatal Five as a JLU movie. You can't because it's not true, I've looked into this myself.

Oh, and for the record, there is nothing to say that Batman: The Mystery of Batwoman connects to continuity

Incorrect. Alan Burnett said in the special features for the film that Mystery of the Batwoman is 100% canon.

I would also be curious about what "discrepancies" are in the Zeta Project, a show which I doubt you've even seen. Walterwhitehartwell (talk) 23:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discrepancies for the Zeta Project are Zeta's design and overall tone of the show. I haven't watched Batman: The Mystery of Batwoman's special features in almost two decades, so I'll need to check on that before I counter. However, even if we grant that as in-continuity, that's the exact point that Timm was making in that works that he has had nothing to do with are said to be DCAU canon. As for your other sources, what Wizard issue and what back issue? I'll need to verify.

As for people who work on a film/show, the author(s) of authority are seen by most as the writer, director, producers, and distributors. So, the music composer doesn't fly (and your appeal against vanity sources also means even we accept that the composer does trump the writer, you'll need a better source for what you consider credible).

Given that Kreig is credited as a screenwriter for Batman and Harley Quinn, he does have some authority on whether its within DCAU continuity. However, you miss quoted him. Italic"If it's in a universe, it's in a--in a B:TAS universe or maybe B:TAS adjacent."Italic In this case, I'm going to have to preface the maybe. And, of course, do we grant Kreig more authority than Timm? Nope. You're also completely taking the quote out of context. If anything, it basically states that it is in continuity. The quote is referring to it not taking place in the then DC Animated Universe films' timeline. Also, there's this: "This is really Bruce Timm's baby and it's a real honour to work out of . . . This is a world we know about, and care about, and have so for years. And hopefully the fans will recognised it and enjoy it"

As for the source for Batman and Harley Quinn in continuity: https://web.archive.org/web/20170805154625/http://www.dccomics.com/movies/batman-and-harley-quinn-2017

The tag clearly states, and thus categorised it as, a Batman: The Animated Series movie.

WB did not categorise Fatal Five under the JLU banner, just Justice League, so for now I'll concede that my only source for that film being in continuity is from Bleeding News (which again, apparently isn't a vanity page when you cite it). https://bleedingcool.com/tv/justice-league-vs-the-fatal-five-ep-bruce-timm-talks-the-killing-joke-jlu-canon-more-interview/

I'll look into finding something more concrete that Fatal Five is in continuity, but as is, until you can find something from a better source that says that it isn't. Zero X Marquis (talk) 06:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://web.archive.org/web/20230610180003/https://www.warnerbros.com/news/articles/2017/07/14/comic-con-2017

Animation legend Bruce Timm returns to his Batman: The Animated Series roots with an original tale to mark the 30th entry in the popular DC Universe Original Movies series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWS0A37E9Yg

From Timm: “It was just an excuse to go back to the B:TAS world.”

And he mentions it several times that it’s the B:TAS world. Zero X Marquis (talk) 06:22, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, Timm states at 4:17 regarding Justice League vs The Fatal Five, when asked if the film was apart of the DCAU:

"Yes, it's canon. There's your headline."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggCyAfwTF2U Zero X Marquis (talk) 06:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As for the source for Batman and Harley Quinn in continuity: https://web.archive.org/web/20170805154625/http://www.dccomics.com/movies/batman-and-harley-quinn-2017

This is your source? Come on, you're reaching at this point. There is nothing here that says Batman and Harley Quinn is a B:TAS movie, aside from some random movie tag that was strung together by a bunch of other movie tags by an intern. This is the same website that has the 2004 "The Batman" show with the JLU Batman promo art.

Animation legend Bruce Timm returns to his Batman: The Animated Series roots with an original tale to mark the 30th entry in the popular DC Universe Original Movies series.

Roots, his roots. Batman: Caped Crusader also advertised itself the same way. Unless you think that show is also canon to B:TAS? Again, you're arguing in bad faith here.

Here's another Jim Krieg quote btw, that's pretty definitive about this movie being "canon-adjacent" at best.

"This is kind of a strange, red-headed nephew of Batman: The Animated Series, but don't show it to your kids thinking that it's Batman: The Animated Series, it is its own thing, kind of extrapolated." (from the special features).

In regards with JL vs Fatal Five, I will concede that does have Timm basically throwing up his hands at Wondercon and saying it's canon. Though it is important to note that on the audio commentary for the film, Timm also says this "Once we decided we were going to set this in the old classic style, we had already committed to doing certain things with the characters, and it was like well this is going to cause some continuity issues, but I never bother trying to figure out where this stuff lands in , or whether it's even in continuity, to fans it's either in continuity or not, you guys can decide on your own. I'm a big believer in head-canon." So with JL vs Fatal Five, there are arguments both for and against it's canonicity. Batman and Harley Quinn, not so much. Walterwhitehartwell (talk) 23:17, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Last time I'm going to comment on this.

WB is the definitive owner of the property. There is nothing that states the tag is random or selected by an intern. And I'm the one reaching? They published on their website that it was a B:TAS movie--what more are you looking for to say it's such?

Returning to one's roots would imply a connection. However, that in and of itself isn't the only evidence.

As for Kreig's quote. A Red-Headed nephew is still related. And honestly, the quote is meant to communicate to the audience that the tone/rating for the film isn't for kids. That doesn't mean it's not connected. And even if I grant your quote, the previous Kreig quote states that if it takes place in a world, it's the B:TAS world. And even if we ignore all that, Timm clearly states the film was an opportunity to go back to the B:TAS world.

Ultimately, you're ignoring the mountain of evidence that shows that they're both in continuity for quotes that say the viewer can accept it or not. I have provided direct quotes from Timm that say they're in continuity and some evidence from the owners of the property that state at least Batman and Harley Quinn is categorised as such. Finally, even with your evidence, I've shown how they can be interpreted to mean they're in continuity. Zero X Marquis (talk) 09:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Returning to one's roots would imply a connection. However, that in and of itself isn't the only evidence

Of course there's a connection. It's Bruce Timm famous for his work on Batman! Every time he returns to a DC project, like in the case of Caped Crusader, that's usually how they market it i.e. "Bruce Timm returns to his animated roots to tell an original story."

WB is the definitive owner of the property. There is nothing that states the tag is random or selected by an intern. And I'm the one reaching? They published on their website that it was a B:TAS movie--what more are you looking for to say it's such?

Funny enough, I just went on the WB site, turns out that B:TAS tag isn't even there anymore for the Batman and Harley Quinn movie. Do you see how flimsy your evidence is?

https://www.dc.com/movies/batman-and-harley-quinn-2017

I have provided direct quotes from Timm that say they're in continuity

You have not. Maybe with JL vs Fatal Five cause Timm did say it's canon (with some caveats) at WonderCon, but with Batman and Harley Quinn Timm has said nothing other than a wish-washy "I don't know."

even if I grant your quote, the previous Kreig quote states that if it takes place in a world, it's the B:TAS world.

Taking place in the same or similar universe doesn't mean it's necessarily in continuity. The DCAU comics and video games technically take place in the same universe too, yet their generally not considered to be canon, more of an "adjacent" tier of canonicity.

But that Krieg quote literally says "I would say if it's in a universe it's in a B:TAS Universe or B:TAS adjacent, because it's a slightly sillier universe." That's not an answer someone says if something is canon when you ask a simple "is this in continuity" question. On twitter, Krieg also said it's "canon-adjacent" when someone straight up asked him.

To use an example from another DC show, Green Lantern TAS has been stated by Greg Weisman to be canon-adjacent to Young Justice.

When a creative uses the term "canon-adjacent" that usually means content or works that are closely related to the official canon of a particular fictional universe, but may not be considered part of the primary or official canon itself. Walterwhitehartwell (talk) 23:24, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I lied. I have to finish this once and for all because while I hate Batman and Harley Quinn, I’m sick of revisionist history. You clearly have grabbed onto the “kind of” and “sort of” that the writers used to tip-toe around the different tones of adult humour for the film compared to the rest of the child-friendly DCAU, as a means to justify its exclusion. This, of course, ignores that those exact quotes can be used to justify their inclusion, the continuity between casting and animation style, original producers involvement, and that it doesn’t retcon anything of significance in the rest of the DCAU. The bar you’ve arbitrarily set for its inclusion is higher than that of some of the other entries (Zeta Project) or evidence for others (Mystery of the Batwoman, Batman and Mr. Freeze: Sub-Zero—I’m still waiting on those Wizard and back issue references).

As for Warner Bros removing the tag, even if I ignore that your initial argument was to discount the site as a source due to being edited by interns, website layouts change. They no longer use tags for any of their movies. Hell, Mask of the Phantasm no longer has the tag! Does that mean it no longer counts as being in the DCAU?

But to drive this point home, here are some quotes that you missed from the previous link:

Bruce Timm at 0:28:

“It was just an excuse to kind of go back to the B:TAS world, to do something with Batman and Harley in the classic style.”

When asked: “Was it fun to bring Harley back—to reclaim Harley back to where she started?”

Timm goes on to say how popular she’s become. Ends with: “If I was going to do a Harley Quinn movie, the B:TAS world and the classic Harley costume and personality is the one I’m most comfortable with, so that’s the one I chose to go with.”

And to show how you cherrypicked quotes to discount it:

At 3:22, when Timm discusses how the movie is like an episode of the old show, “Other than that it isn’t similar to the old show at all or the old story. It goes off in weird, different directions.” That isn’t to say that it isn’t apart of the continuity, just that it differs from a particular episode.

Oh, and here’s some more evidence for Batman and Harley Quinn being in continuity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSlH1DkzDZ0

This clip goes into detail about how they considered the continuity of the original shows. It does say that it’s kind of it’s own thing in relation to hair styles, but it’s more of an implication that time has passed and, as you’ve shown in your Wizard quote (again, still waiting on the issue number), changes in character designs does not mean a work is not in continuity.

And, as you seem to value Kreig’s input more than Timm’s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNqd-QDmdpU

When asked about the hardest part of making the movie, at 1:22, Kreig responds, “Batman: The Animated Series is kind of holy of holies in our community—if we have a community—and I think we didn’t want to be disrespectful to it because it’s really important to a lot of people, but we writing a comedy kind of set in that world so I think the challenge was not be offensive to the original audience, but still make a funny movie.”

And the final nail in this coffin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1__8lFlxo

When asked, “We’re returning to a universe that you originated [Timm nods in agreement], so what was the genesis of the idea to come back to it and do this story with Batman and Harley?

Timm’s answer:

“The people at home video were interested in doing something with Harley because she’s become such a popular character now, and this was about a year before the Suicide Squad movie came out, so they knew would be able to, you know, kind of hopefully that would raise her profile farther so, so they mentioned it and I came up with an idea and wanted to do it the old Batman: The Animated Series universe, where she originated, and everybody was okay with that, and so here we are.”

The rest of the video then establishes that they’re talking about the universe that Timm and Dini created.

So, until you can provide something that specifically states Batman and Harley Quinn and Justice League vs. The Fatal Five are not in continuity, please stop reverting the edits that include them. Zero X Marquis (talk) 01:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Can we get another editor in here? This edit war is going nowhere.

Batman: The Adventures Continue Continuity Status

Okay, so it's clear to me that what was stated to be continuity was determined and gatekept by one person. In the past, the comics weren't seen as being in continuity, but in 2020, Dini and Burnett did a continuation of B:TAS in comic form (https://www.dc.com/blog/2020/03/31/batman-the-adventures-continue-offers-a-return-to-the-animated-world). They state that it's "pretty much a continuation" and the article posits that it's a return to the world. I'm inclined to take it as continuity given the creators involved, art style, and DC branding it as such, but given that it isn't, well, animated, there's obviously room for debate. I want to see if we can get a majority, one-way or the other, on how to proceed.Zero X Marquis (talk) 03:10, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]