Talk:D'Oyly Carte Opera Company

D'Oyly Carte Opera Company has been listed as one of the Media and drama good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 5, 2005	Candidate for speedy deletion	Deleted
July 15, 2010	Good article nominee	Listed

Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on February 27, 2011, February 27, 2017, February 27, 2022, and February 27, 2023.

Current status: Good article

Gilbert and Sullivan High‑importance

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A note on terminology
Gilbert, Sullivan, Carte and other Victorian era British composers and librettists, as well as the contemporary British press and literature, called works of the sort that Gilbert and Sullivan produced "comic operas" to distinguish them from the continental European operettas that they wished to displace. Most of the specialist literature on Gilbert and Sullivan since that time has referred to these works as "operas" (e.g., Jacobs, Preface), though some later general books on music prefer "operetta". For a discussion of this, see Kuykendall, James Brooks. "Recitative in the Savoy Operas", The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 95, Issue 4, pp. 549–612. The Gilbert and Sullivan WikiProject has used the term "opera" consistently throughout the G&S-related articles within its scope.

Eric Roberts

For wikilinks such as this, disambiguation pages may be called for to allow the reader to select the correct person.Kukini 15:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, but there is no article for the Eric Roberts mentioned on this page. Marc Shepherd 15:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK...I was not complaining. Just suggesting. Peace, Kukini 15:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding the article

I really know far less about the company than the average person who is immersed in G&S at my level, possibly because the original company had already closed before I was even born, and the second company had already ceased operations shortly before Gilbert & Sullivan really "appeared on my radar." So maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's a big hole in information about the era of the company under Bridget D'Oyly Carte. --Anivron 03:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I pulled info out of Rupert's and Bridget's articles. Would you mind looking it over and smoothing out any wrinkes that caused? Thanks! -- Ssilvers 05:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'll get to it after I finish a major tagging operation over at another WikiProject. --Anivron 05:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What an amazing improvement! I think it may need some slight work on the flow, although that might just be me being tired. I'll take another look at it tomorrow. Great work. --Anivron 07:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but go right ahead and dig in with a sharp spoon when you get a chance! I am sure there must be internal references, wikifying, etc. that I messed up when I threw it all together. There may even be some more good stuff in the Helen entry that ought to be copied over. --Ssilvers 07:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

discography

The official SonyBMG Masterworks discography link for this artist is as follows

Discography at SonyBMG Masterworks

It (in most cases) contains a full listing of in-print CDs released on the SonyBMG labels within the US (for the moment), along with track listings and in some cases audio clips (which will become more robust in the new year). Ecommerce links are provided inobtrusively.

I have been informed that it creates a conflict of interest to post these links directly from my account, so please consider adding the page to the link section. Thanks.Softlord 23:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but what does this add to the discographies already linked?:

[1] and [2] -- Ssilvers 16:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in D'Oyly Carte Opera Company

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of D'Oyly Carte Opera Company's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "DNB":

From Helen Carte: Stedman, Jane W. "Carte, Helen (1852–1913)", Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, September 2004, doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/59169 accessed 12 September 2008
From Bridget D'Oyly Carte: Taylor, C. M. P. "Carte, Dame Bridget Cicely D'Oyly (1908–1985)", Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, 2004, Oxford University Press, accessed 20 June 2009
From Rutland Barrington: Parker, J. "Barrington, Rutland (1853–1922)", rev. Nilanjana Banerji, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004; online edn, Oct 2006, accessed 22 September 2008, doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/30618
From W. S. Gilbert: "DNB biography of Gilbert". Oxforddnb.com. Retrieved 2009-05-26.
From Richard D'Oyly Carte: Jacobs, Arthur. "Carte, Richard D'Oyly (1844–1901)", Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, September 2004, accessed 12 September 2008, doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/32311

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, I think. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tour information

Tim wrote: According to Rollins and Witts, pp. 23–116, Carte's companies toured the UK with the following non–G&S works: Rip Van Winkle (1882), Claude Duval (1882), The Nautch Girl (1891–92), The Vicar of Bray (1892–96 and 1899), Haddon Hall (1892–94 and 1899), Billee Taylor (1893), The Chieftain (1895), Mirette (1894–95), His Majesty (1897), The Grand Duchess of Gerolstein (1898–99), The Lucky Star (1899), The Rose of Persia (1900–01), and after Carte's death The Emerald Isle (1901–02). Rollins and Witts don't give full details of Carte's overseas tours

In 1884 he had seven companies touring the UK (with, variously: Pinafore and Pirates (1 company); Patience (2 companies); Iolanthe (2); and Ida (2)). (R&W, p. 24)
R&W also mention tours to the US (1882, 1885, 6, and 7, 1890), Germany (1886 and twice in 1887, with dates in Austria and Holland also), and South Africa, 1896-7.
Six companies (by which I assume R&W mean Carte's companies, not pirate ones) were presenting The Mikado in Canada and the USA during 1886. (R&W p. 59).
In 1887 the "E" company played three nights in Calais and a week in Boulogne. (R&W p. 65).

This is not complete, but it is a good start. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1906–09 repertory seasons

I've just made a few changes in the paragraph where these seasons are discussed:

The text previously stated that: "In late 1906, Helen re-acquired the performing rights to the Gilbert and Sullivan operas from Gilbert (she already had Sullivan's) and, with Gilbert's assistance, she staged a repertory season at the Savoy Theatre, leasing the Savoy to herself." Joseph, p. 146, was cited as the source for all this. Joseph does not state on p. 146 that Helen had to re-acquire the performing rights in order to stage this season, nor does it say that she leased the theatre to herself. I do not recall seeing these facts anywhere else, so I removed them.

The paragraph also said that these seasons were "very successful," but no authority was stated for this. I reworded it to say that the first repertory season led to another season in 1908–09. I don't dispute that the first season clearly had some measure of success, but "very successful" is not a substantiated claim; perhaps it was merely "successful enough."

Lastly, it said that these seasons "revived interest in the operas and revitalised the company, which also continued touring in the provinces." This might be taken to imply that without these seasons, its viability in the provinces might have been at risk. I don't recall reading anywhere that interest in the G&S works had flagged, or that the company was in need of revitalizing. It had been touring continuously in the intervening years, and continued to do so without another London visit until 1919. Also, the fact that they continued to tour in the provinces was stated again at the end of the paragraph. Marc Shepherd (talk) 16:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like the changes, which reduced a lot of redundancy and unnecessary technical detail, which I have seen cited elsewhere (someone showed me a book that lists all the lessees of the Savoy in history; and Duffey's or Burleigh's articles on the Carte Family say that the DOC was in serious decline before the London seasons), but which would, even if thoroughly cited, not add any value. I added back that the first season was a "sensation", citing Wilson and Lloyd, p. 52. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Section on "Eras"

I recommend incorporating this section into the main body of the article. It seems to be a re-telling of the history, from merely a different viewpoint (i.e., the viewpoint of who was playing the principal comic parts at a particular time.

What's more, the lede is that G&S aficionados "frequently use the names of the principal comedians of the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company as shorthand for its different eras." The citation is to Wilson & Lloyd; while they do organize their book this way, Joseph (whom the article cites more often) does not.

The section is also full of unsourced opinion, e.g., that Workman had a "not especially characterful" voice, that Nellie Briercliffe's "vivacity...won over audiences," or that Darrell Fancourt's Mikado was "thought definitive" (by whom?). Another howler is that John Reed's "two-decades-long tenure caused him to be quickly popular." Quickly popular...after twenty years?

Lastly, the section is a terminological muddle. It says, "the principal patter parts in all of the operas are traditionally called the 'Grossmith' roles." Despite introducing this fact, the term "Grossmith roles" is not used again in the section, which waffles between "principal comedian" and "patter man" (or "patter parts").

Now, I am quite sure that the term "patter man" (or "patter part") was never used in Gilbert's day, and I am not quite sure when it originated. It is an informal term from fandom, and quite inaccurate, as the Grossmith characters do much more than patter, and they are not the only characters who do so.

The article would probably be better if this section were deleted entirely, but I do realize that somebody put a lot of work into it, so I merely suggest that it be better integrated into the text. Marc Shepherd (talk) 17:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've renamed the section and made some quick fixes based on your comments here. This is an old section that was first written before I got to Wikipedia; in fact, I assumed that you had written it! I have always liked the section, but if no one else does, then I guess the info can be integrated into the previous sections. I've deleted the adjectives, and I'll look thru Wilson and Lloyd to see if they supply more useful adjectives for these named principals. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that I dislike the material, but that it's somewhat poorly integrated with the rest of the article, and in fact is slightly duplicative (re-stating some facts that have already been stated above).Marc Shepherd (talk) 21:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

I think the lead is too long. WP:LEAD mentions a maximum of four paragraphs for articles with more than 30,000 characters. With the extra paragraph I don't think it reads as the succinct summary it's supposed to be of the article. Writing a short summary of such a long article may be difficult in the sense that it feels inadequate or the decision what to cut is difficult but writing incisively is something worthwhile and I think it's possible to cut the current lead down. Hekerui (talk) 22:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I went through and tried to streamline the lead a bit and was able to combine two short paragraphs into one. I think that now all the information in the lead is needed in order to summarize/give an overview of the most important points made in the article. The article was just promoted to GA, and I think our reviewer would agree with this. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:58, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Company revived again?

Shall we add? [3] –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:47, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not yet, I think. It seems to be BS - the production is entirely a Scottish Opera production. It is unclear what D'Oyly Carte has to do with it - some think that they contributed some money in exchange for putting their name on it, or maybe Scottish Opera is actually licensing the name.... I would certainly wait until we know much more. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Carteloads

User:Jesi has added a perfectly reasonable hat-note about D'Oyly Carte Island here, apropos of the "D'Oyly Carte" page, which redirects here. I wonder, though, if a redirect is the most helpful option for our readers? I think perhaps "D'Oyly Carte" should be not a redirect page but a disambiguation page, with onward links to the Company, the Island, and to Richard, Helen, Rupert and Bridget. We could then dispense with the hat-note about the island on the Company's page. Any thoughts? Happy to do the manual labour if agreed. Tim riley (talk) 12:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are obviously correct and will make it so. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I say! Swift work (and saved me a job or two). All spot-on, I'd say. Tim riley (talk) 16:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Mad Nights

During Bridget's tutelage (at least), the Company had a practice of closing its run by mixing the sets from one operetta with the lines of another and the costumes of the third of that season. It would be nice to have these events commemorated in the article. 201.130.144.66 (talk) 22:01, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is already in the article at the end of the section called "The new Savoy Theatre". -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:36, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Major-General's Song.ogg

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