Talk:Copperpenny

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This is the first article I have started. If anyone can give me tips or advice to improve it, that would be stellar!

Bill Dalrymple

Moving this uncited OR that had been added by an anon editor to the main article. --Walor (talk) 21:25, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Just to set the record straight. Bill Dalrymple was the bass player for the Copperpenny band from 1971 to 1972. Most or all bass lines of songs on the album “Sittin’ on a Poor Man’s Throne”, including the title song, are Bill Dalrymple’s. However, Dalrymple had quit the band prior to the writing of the hit song and the album's release on the Sweet Plum label, and subsequently Bill received no credit for the bass line. The new bass player, Ron Hiller – credited for co-writing “Sittin’ on a Poor Man’s Throne” – had received a tape from the band’s last gig with Bill Dalrymple so that Ron could learn the bass parts of the band’s performance repertoire. On that tape was a recording of a work-in-progress song in the key of C that keyboard player Rich Wamil and Bill Dalrymple had been developing. Rich and Bill were trying to write a song with a sound and feel similar to the (at the time) currently radio-played song “Respect Yourself” by the Staple Singers. (Similarities between “Respect Yourself” and “Sittin’ on a Poor Man’s throne” are readily apparent when the two songs are played in sequence.) Rich and Bill recorded their progress with the then-unnamed song in the band’s practice hall, using a 7” reel-to-reel tape – the same tape used to record the band live at Bill Dalrymple’s last gig with Copper Penny and later given to Ron Hiller for reference to the bass lines. Bill’s bass playing on the practice hall recording with Rich is the same, note for note, as that of the released song, “Sittin’ on a Poor Man’s Throne.” Blues singer, Bobby Bland, later covered “Sittin’ on a Poor Man’s Throne”. -- 99.237.217.222

Ron Hiller

--Halcyonian (talk) 19:42, 12 February 2015 (UTC) (on behalf of Ron Hiller)

I respectfully request that three changes be made to the Copperpenny article.

1) I joined Copperpenny mid-1972 and left part way into 1975. I would appreciate having this reflected in the Band Members timeline.

2) The year 1974 is missing from the Band Members timeline. It should be exactly the same as the 1973 list.

3) I request that the line "Bill (Dal) Dalrymple provided the original recorded bass lines for both these tunes & Ron Hiller ultimately did the bass recording on the single & album." be removed from the Copperpenny article, because its accuracy is under dispute by all the other Copperpenny musicians involved in recording the tracks in question.

Supporting statements (Original research)

Rich Wamil (writer of "You're Still the One" and co-writer of "Sitting on a Poor Man's Throne") says: “I clearly remember that Bill Dalrymple had already left the group Copperpenny well before Ron Hiller and Bill Mononen presented ‘Sitting on a Poor Man’s Throne,’ as a brand new tune at a rehearsal together with Blake Barrett and myself. Ron Hiller composed the entire bass line himself – Ron’s bass lines were totally original on this tune. “As for the tune, ‘You’re Still the One’ – Bill Dalrymple did the initial bass lines prior to the group recording this song, while we rehearsed at our farm house in Washington Ont., but again, I have to say that Ron Hiller, once he joined the group, had his own ideas as to the bass lines on this song, and Ron did NOT copy Dalrymple’s bass lines, but played his own groove to the song. This I’m sure of.” Bill Mononen (co-writer of "Sitting on a Poor Man's Throne") says: “I am very clear in my mind about how the song came about and how we sat down at your [Ron’s] folks’ place and wrote ‘Sitting on a Poor Man's Throne.’ That song was written lyrics and music by you [Ron] and me. You had to put a bass line to what I had to show you as a start to the song and the hook and add the lyric lines that you did. It was a work in progress.” Blake Barrett (Copperpenny drummer) says: “Everything you [Ron] say in your statement is true. I remember you and Bill bringing ‘Sitting on a Poor Man`s Throne’ to band practice. Rich and I added some nice finishing touches. We recorded the song in one take at Richard Becker`s Pac Three Studio in Southfield Michigan. I played drums with Copperpenny from May 1970 until April 1975. Bill (Dal) Dalrymple left Copperpenny before ‘Poor Man`s Throne’ was written!” Ron Hiller (bassist, co-writer of "Sitting on a Poor Man's Throne") says: "’Sitting On A Poor Man's Throne’ was composed entirely from scratch by Bill Mononen and myself (with Rich Wamil adding some embellishments shortly thereafter) at least 3 months (but probably more) after I joined the band in July of 1972. If I was influenced at all by another bass player, it was by renowned Motown bassist, James Jamerson, who contributed the bass track on The Temptations' mega-hit, ‘Papa Was A Rolling Stone,’ a song that hugely impressed us and which I believe we nodded to stylistically with ‘Sitting On A Poor Man's Throne.’ With my bass pattern, I was also responding to the excellent groove provided in pre-recording rehearsals by Copperpenny drummer, Blake Barrett."

Thanks so much for issuing the request to clarify and correct the article information. Unfortunately, the information that you've provided is what is called original research and Wikipedia article guidelines are that content comes from reliable, secondary and independent sources, like newspapers, books, music industry publications (in this case). Regarding each specific item:

1. Do you have a source for this?
2. That really shouldn't be needed, the summaries are just meant to identify when there are significant changes to the band. Since there was no change in 1974, there shouldn't need to be a listing. It could be clarified by added the date range for each set of band members. The article is sorely lacking sources, and this is one example where it would be good to have sources to help clarify the information.
3. Do you have a source for this?

I appreciate the effort that was taken to get quotes from band members, unfortunately we cannot use it. If you can identify sources for the clarification of the information, then the information can be updated with a request. Please feel free to let me know if I can help clarify any of the Wikipedia guidelines or next steps.--CaroleHenson (talk) 11:50, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Hello Carol, Thanks so much for your feedback. The main issue for us is our point #3 -- If that erroneous line ("Bill (Dal) Dalrymple provided the original recorded bass lines for both these tunes & Ron Hiller ultimately did the bass recording on the single & album." could be removed from the article, that will resolve this issue. As you can see from the interview clips we included originally, there is no support for the veracity of that line. Best, Heather Hossfeld — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halcyonian (talk • contribs) 15:57, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

 Done, since it was not cited to begin with.--CaroleHenson (talk) 16:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)