Talk:Cirta

Older comments

This is a very well written article. To improve it, I suggest adding specific dates/years in the different sections. There are a lot of specific dates in the last section, but in the first few if you could get exact years it might be better. The article was set up very well, and a picture of the actual place might help improve it. Also, I think expanding the article means that you can get rid of the "stub" parts at the end, but I'm not entirely positive. Overall, good job and just try to specify time periods a little more if possible. -David Ackerman (Friday Section 2 pm)

I also think this a very well written article. It provides a fairly detailed description of Cirta to the reader. Dividing the article at 46 BC helps the reader see the change in the city. Some changes that you can make are adding specific dates, as David said. Also, I think you should add what specific Punic War Cirta fell under Roman Rule. The “Roman Influence before 46 BC” paragraph seems to cover fairly enough information. However, “After 46 BC” should contain some more information such as: (1) How did they try to “Romanize” the city, (2) What relationship did it maintain with Rome, any material benefits?, etc. Other than this, I think your article is very nice.- Ailia Ali

"Berber-Libyan Kingdom"

Numidia may have been located in present-day Berber Africa, but the term "Berber-Libyan Kingdom" appears virtually nowhere in the relevant literature.[1] I have removed it per WP:NOR. --Omnipaedista (talk) 17:05, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

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Names

In the "Names" section I think that also the Greek name (Κίρτα) should be added. The member User:M.Bitton reject it and keep deleting it.

I believe that the Greek name should be added since it is mentioned in many ancient sources, including Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Polybius, Appian, Cassius Dio, Ptolemy, etc. In addition, inscriptions written in Greek alphabet have found at the sanctuary in El-Hofra, and also in many other stelae around the region. Furthermore, sources mention that there was a trade between this region and the Greek world, for example one time Greek merchants went there in order to purchase monkeys as household pets. Even later, after the change of the name to Constantina, Greek world was aware of the city as we can see from the Procopius, etc.

Mastanabal studied Greek and won in chariot-racing at the Panathenaic Games. Micipsa not only studied Greek and Greek philosophy but also invited Greeks to come and live at Cirta, establishing a Greek community.
Their father, Masinissa met and spoke with Polybius and had Greek musicians at his court. The Marcus Cornelius Fronto who was a native, had a Greek paedagogus, knew Greek and even have written some of his "Letters" in Greek.

For all the above (and I am sure I have forgot many other sources and stories which show how close the Greek world was with the city and the region), I think that the Greek name is not "irrelevant" as User:M.Bitton believes and should be added in the article.

Some of the sources below:

Ancient

Strabo, Geography
Diodorus Siculus, Library
Polybius, Histories
Appian, Civil Wars
Dio Cassius, Histories
Livy, The Periochae
Procopius, History of the Wars
Ptolemy, Geography

Greek Letters of Marcus Cornelius Fronto

https://archive.org/stream/correspondenceof01fronuoft#page/20/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/correspondenceof01fronuoft#page/30/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/correspondenceof01fronuoft#page/130/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/correspondenceof01fronuoft#page/146/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/correspondenceof01fronuoft#page/168/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/correspondenceof01fronuoft#page/268/mode/2up

Modern

The Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites, Cirta (Constantine) Algeria
A Dictionary of Greek and Roman biography and mythology, Micipsa
Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, Cirta
Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, Constantina
A Latin Dictionary, Cirta
Massinissa, jstor
The Tiny and the Fragmented: Miniature, Broken, or Otherwise Incomplete Objects in the Ancient World, Oxford University Press, p. 76-77
Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary. Judean war, Brill, p. 298
The Oxford Classical Dictionary, Oxford University Press, p. 320
The Cambridge History of Africa, Cambridge University Press, p.84
The Punic Mediterranean: Identities and Identification from Phoenician Settlement to Roman Rule, Cambridge University Press, p. 198 Gre regiment (talk) 09:31, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

None of the reasons given are good enough to mention, in Greek to boot, how the Greeks used to call Cirta. While the language spoken throughout Numidia was Libyan, the official language of Numidia during the period of the Numidian kings was Punic, which gave way to Latin after the Roman conquest (though for a period, Latin and Punic were used at the same time). The official name of the city during both periods and the root of the word are all mentioned in the article. How the others (the court's musicians and those who visited to buy monkeys) called it is irrelevant.

Greeks called it ... is WP:OR based on your analysis of ancient Greek texts. M.Bitton (talk) 00:39, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Four famous natives of the city knew Greek (we even have Greek writings surviving, until today, from one of them), monuments have Greek letters, ancient sources are written with the Greek name of the city (I think Polybius is the first who mention the city and write the name in Greek) and there was even a Greek community during the ancient times. I really don't understand how you think that the Greek name is irrelevant. All these sources (ancient and modern) and archaeological findings are showing that there was a huge interaction between the Greek world, the region and the city, even before they both were part of the Roman Empire. Even some of the modern English sources mention the Greek name (see the modern sources above). Gre regiment (talk) 09:31, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi to both, Gre regiment pointed me to this discussion. The common practice is to include all names that are somehow relevant. While there is an ongoing dispute (per MOS:FORLANG) whether and which of these variant names might belong in the lede, there is no dispute that a 'Names' section, if it exists, can and indeed should include all of them. The names that are found in the primary sources about the city's history are clearly relevant to the city, as Gre regiment has shown above. Let's not forget that Greek was a) an international language of scholarship in antiquity and b) the language in which many of our surviving sources are written, for better or worse. If 2,000 years from now, there were only Arabic records left about New York's history, and the city known through the lens of these sources, then the Arabic name would be equally relevant to the city. Constantine ✍ 13:05, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

First of all, let me start by saying that I do not appreciate the WP:CANVASSING. With years of WP experience and plenty of relevant boards to turn to, Gre regiment knows better than to cherry pick an editor using words such as "M.Bitton is claiming...".

The common practice is to include all names that are somehow relevant. The key word here is relevant. Reliable secondary source establish whether how the Greeks, the Persians, etc. used to call a particular place is relevant or not by stating so, otherwise there is no end to how much WP:OR we can insert in all articles. "Sources" could easily be found on how the Chinese call American cities, how the Persians and the Turks called Greek cities, and a more solid argument that the one above could indeed put forward to add how the Arabs called and still call Paris (باريس) to the Paris article, after all, we're talking about of centuries of interaction, a detailed shared history, a huge community, prominent Arabic speakers from all walks, including government officials, living in it.

The names that are found in the primary sources about the city's history are clearly relevant to the city. The only primary source that is consistently used to refer to the history of the not only the city, but the whole region, is Sallust's Jugurthine War (which was written in Latin). It's only after the city fell to the Romans and its name was officially Latinized that the Greeks started mentioning it (in passing).

Reliable secondary sources mentioning how the Greeks used to call various cities around the Mediterranean can easily be found, usually because they either established them or were the first to write something worthy about them; so my question is this: how many reliable secondary sources about Cirta mention how the Greeks used to call it, and of those, how many do so using the Greek alphabet? The answer to this question will establish if the content that the editor wants to add Greeks called it ... is WP:OR or not. M.Bitton (talk) 18:10, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Hello M.Bitton, first of all I asked the help of Constantine since I didn't know who else to ask in order to show me how things should be solved in such cases, since it is the fist time that I face something like that. We are at a dead end, I can't persuade you and you can't persuade me. There should be a way in wikipedia in order to solve such issues, or else we will be in an infinite loop of arguing with no way to solve it.

Secondly, I don't think that I cherry picked anything, I think that I have stated your point of view. On the other hand I have written so much these last days and I may have made a mistake. Really sorry if I wrote something that you don't believe.

Thirdly, Polybius mention the city, before the city became part of the Roman Empire. The city became Roman around 46 BC, while Polybius finished his "History" around 146 BC and died around 125 BC. I also think that he is the first ancient writer who mention the city (I may be wrong here).

Fourthly, I disagree with you regarding the sources. Because we have very few written sources survived for that period. Even finding one is miracle. For the later periods which you mention we have plenty and it is not the same. But this is my point of view while you don't agree, which is ok.

And last but not least, the "Dictionary of Greek and Roman geography, p.267" (Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, Cirta) and the "A Latin Dictionary, p.344" (A Latin Dictionary, A Latin Dictionary, Cirta) have the city name also in Greek. Both are famous books, and I believe that you will be ok with them.

Regarding the two books it would be easier to read them at the "perseus" because at the "archive" the pdf takes long to load, I have put both the sites at the above line. Gre regiment (talk) 22:00, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

You cherry picked an editor for your canvassing just like you're cherry picking words from 19 century unreliable sources (written way before much of the work about the history of the city was done by the French). You asked them about the WP guidelines with regard to using non-Latin words, here they are.

My question still stands: How many reliable secondary sources about Cirta mention how the Greeks used to call it, and of those, how many do so using the Greek alphabet? The answer to this question will establish if the content that you want to add Greeks called it Cirta (Κίρτα) is WP:OR or not. M.Bitton (talk) 22:04, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I decided to ask the only person who I knew was long enough at wikipedia and could show me what are the guidelines in order to solve this issue, since it doesn't have any value to keep arguing non-stop.

The guidelines that you showed me, write "Use the native spellings if they use the Latin alphabet (with or without diacritics)—otherwise anglicize their spelling it", later it states "is fine to include foreign terms as extra information, but avoid writing articles that can only be understood if the reader understands the foreign terms". In addition, it mention that when we use them they should not be italicized or bolded and we can also place them in parentheses. It is not clear at all, seems that we can both use these guidelines to support our view. lol

The secondary sources that I provide in my previous comments have the name in Greek alphabet (how do I cherry picked the words? Both the books use the Greek name in the first line of their entry regarding the city, you don't even need to search for it in the article body) and are two very famous and classic books regarding the ancient world.

Do you think that maybe an admin could help us (I don't know if they are responsible for this), or maybe a wiki members group are responsible of this?? After all it is just a minor change. It is plain stupid to argue for so long about something like this. Gre regiment (talk) 21:44, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

There is nothing remotely interesting about a 19th century dictionary, especially when it comes to North Africa whose history was virtually unknown to the Europeans before the French occupation and the scholarly work that was undertaken by them in the 20th century. Here's how modern reliable sources describe Cirta.

Concerning the WP guideline on using non-Latin scripts:

Wikipedia uses isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English. The name Cirta has everyday use in non-specialized English. The only reason we mention its Punic and Latin names is because they were official names.

Use the native spellings if they use the Latin alphabet (with or without diacritics)—otherwise anglicize their spelling. This is what's in the article.

If there is a reason to include a term in a non-Latin script, it can be placed in parentheses. This is the core of the problem. There is no reason whatsoever to include how the others used to call it.

After all it is just a minor change. It is plain stupid to argue for so long about something like this. A minor change it may be, but this isn't an isolated incident. You have been going around and inserting Greek words everywhere. How can you possibly justify inserting a Greek word in the lead of the Tunis article? M.Bitton (talk) 00:43, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

The history of the region was unknown to the Europeans who didn't study this ancient period, for the academics the city was known. Even now that we have the internet, wiki, etc, very few in the world know the city although it is fairly big, but this does not mean that researchers are unaware of it or it's history. In addition, modern sources cite ancient writers or other modern sources which in turn mention the ancients. Furthermore, the archaeological findings shows very big interaction and influence between the two civilizations.

"The Oxford Classical Dictionary" cited Polybius, Strabo and Ptolemy (if you read the Cirta entry, you will see that there is an asterisk in front of some words, example Masinissa, Syphax (both kings of Numidia who had Cirta as their capital) this means that you should search for their own entries in the book) p.909, 1586, etc

"The Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity", cite one more Greek historian the Zosimus, which is interesting because I didn't know that he mentioned the city at his work. I couldn't find the other sources in order to read them.

Regarding the "The Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites", although your link does not show the sources, I have the book and I can see them, all are in French and neither I have them nor I have read them, but I searched one of them ("Le sanctuaire punique d'El Hofra à Constantine") in the internet and I found it (https://www.persee.fr/doc/antiq_0770-2817_1956_num_25_1_3290_t1_0277_0000_2) at p.278, writes:

"Quelques steles sont rédigés en grec. Elles attestent la presence, dans i'antique Cirta, au sielce avant notre ere, d'une colonie greeque assez importance. Ces Grecs ont assimile Baal Hammon a Kronos."

I don't know French, but google translate it to something like this:

"Some steles are written in Greek. They attest the presence, in ancient Cirta, in century before our era, of a fairly important Greek colony. These Greeks assimilated Baal Hammon to Kronos."

If the google translate is correct, I have also mentioned this in my first comment.

"If there is a reason to include a term in a non-Latin script, it can be placed in parentheses. This is the core of the problem. There is no reason whatsoever to include how the others used to call it." * Yes, I know this is the problem because you believe that there is no reason to add it, while I believe that it has value to add it.

Regarding Tunis, the wiki's article write "Some scholars claim that it originated from Tynes, which was mentioned by Diodorus Siculus and Polybius in the course of descriptions of a location resembling present-day Al-Kasbah; Tunis's old Berber Bourgade.", in other articles I have seen that we add next to the name in parenthesis the name from which it originated, and I followed the same pattern.

We should not continue this anymore, we just keep repeating the same things. Who can we ask to decide what should be done? If he/she thinks that there are not enough info in order to justify the Greek name we will not add it, but if on the other hand believe that the provided data are enough then we will add it. Gre regiment (talk) 22:05, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

A wall of text, none of which answers very simple questions:

Do reliable sources associate Cirta with the Greek word? No.

Was Cirta founded by the Greeks? No.

Is Cirta a Greek name? No.

Is the root of the name Cirta Greek? No.

Was the official name of Cirta Greek at any point in its long history? No.

Were the indigenous people of Cirta Greek? No.

So, let me repeat what I already said: Reliable secondary source establish whether how the Greeks, the Persians, etc. used to call a particular place is relevant or not by stating so, otherwise there is no end to how much WP:OR we can insert in all articles. "Sources" could easily be found on how the Chinese call American cities, how the Persians and the Turks called Greek cities, and a more solid argument that the one above could indeed put forward to add how the Arabs called and still call Paris (باريس) to the Paris article, after all, we're talking about centuries of interaction (a hell of a lot simple tradesmen buying monkeys and court jesters), a detailed shared history, a huge community, prominent Arabic speakers from all walks -including government officials- living in it, etc.

Regarding what you did to the Tunis article: I have seen that we add next to the name in parenthesis the name from which it originated Even if we assume that you truly didn't know about MOS:FORLANG, why did you cherry pick Tynes from all the possible explanations about the origin of the name of the city and why did you use a Greek word? Was Tynes (described in the cited source as Libyan par excellence) a Greek city? No! Is the origin of the word Tynes (found in various forms all over North Africa) Greek? No!

We should not continue this any more. Sure thing, but let me stress that your insertion of Greek words (jargon to our readers) everywhere is problematic and so is your marking of virtually all your edits as minor (don't you dare tell me that you didn't know about WP:MINOR). M.Bitton (talk) 00:03, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I wrote all these because I was trying to show you that the sources (ancient and modern), state how close the city and the ancient Greeks were, which is also obvious from the archaeological findings (which are also mentioned at the sources). When you deleted my edit your comments were: "How others with no relation to it called it is irrelevant" and also "based on your analysis of ancient texts", so I am trying say that according to the sources and not my analysis, Greeks had relation, influence and very close interaction with it, so close that there are Greek letters on monuments, not in simple houses but on temples, and as the french source above is saying (and the Strabo) there was "a fairly important Greek colony" there.

We don't have so many sources from that period. Don't confuse that period with the later periods from which we have plenty of sources from many different languages and civilizations, especially during the AD period.

About Tynes, "Some scholars claim that it originated from Tynes, which was mentioned by Diodorus Siculus and Polybius...", I added the word that these writers used, I don't know how the Berbers were writing the word in their language.

I marked it as minor because I added only the name with the refs. AbstractIllusions was right, I did changes which I thought were minors at the beginning, but because I was keep changing them in order to improve them, at the end if someone see the history with all these changes he/she will get confused.

We must find someone to review all this talk and decide what should be done.

By the way, I like the "od|9", I didn't know that we could do this. Gre regiment (talk) 22:45, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Hello, M.Bitton. I found that there is the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard and I added our dispute there, Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Cirta, since we both agree that we don't have anything more to add.

No matter what the resolution would be, it was nice discussing with you. I learned a lot from our chatting. Best regards and have a great day! Gre regiment (talk) 21:07, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Hello again, the more appropriate place for the dispute is the Wikipedia:Requests for comment. I hope I will find some free time to read how we should do it during the next days. Nightenbelle thank you very much for point me the correct place.Gre regiment (talk)

References