Talk:Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict/Archive 6

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Archive 6

Removing blah blah

The media has been used manipulatively to create support for different sides. Children have been the victims of indoctrination, school closures, medical problems and post-traumatic stress as a result of the conflict. At the same time, various educational projects have been established to counter indoctrination and negative stereotypes.

None of this accurately reflects the body of the article as a summary, and treats the quite distinct responses to terrorist threats as identical, when the responses of, and impacts on, children in Israel and WB/Gaza are profoundly different, and require careful distinctions. Are Israeli children the 'victims of indoctrination'; are Israeli school frequently over the past decades closed for long periods because of a potential terrorism threat? Is post-traumatic stress in Haifa the same as in Gaza City (not according to the medical literature: the latter has a sophisticated number of studies citing long-term trauma persistence for a large percentage of the population, etc.etc. Rather than a generalistic blather of mirrored victimhood, it is best to leave the issue to the body of the article (which is still quite unsatisfactory in its negligence of much relevant material. Nishidani (talk) 21:48, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Invited comment on B'Tselem material

I was asked to comment on this removal of the quotes of the Israeli embassy's reply to the B'Tselem report. I have no expertise in the subject matter here, I have no personal connection to this subject, and I frankly have no idea why I was contacted. But I have an hour to spare, so here goes:

The B'Tselem report itself is imo notable and worth the one-or-two-sentence summary it has (not contested). I assert that it is currently incorrectly summarized however: the report very explicitly asserts that minors' rights are violated (not "potentially") (p. 25), and the cited laws are almost all from the Convention on the Rights of the Child and Israeli military and civil law. The Geneva Conventions are mentioned only once, and not with respect to children or a specific crime, so are not worth mentioning.

To the removed material: first, the B'Tselem report is an advocacy/think-tank type of organization, which means its research is self-published. It may be of excellent quality, and academics will cite it, but it's not like peer-reviewed academic research. WP:RS has not decided to make an explicit policy on these types of organizations, so they have to be individually assessed by editors, but in general I think it is appropriate if, with these types of reports, an official rebuttal is presented. (If it were peer-reviewed academic research on the other hand, politicians shouldn't get their rebuttal printed imo). Of course the report itself should also be notable, either politically/popularly or in the academic/policy sphere.

In this case the rebuttal is given by the embassy in London. Now, I do take issue with the specific phrasing and quotation used from the source, but instead of presenting that, I will suggest the editors instead quote from the official rebuttals on B'Tselem's page: one from the IDF and one from Justice. These are much more useful for the reader as well, since clicking the source gives them access to the full argument, while in the Guardian piece it seems the argument had been recycled through several political channels. To not give undue weight to a rebuttal is important, and summarizing complex arguments in one or two sentences without looking like WP:OR is difficult. It seems both sides agree in principle that some minors are violent criminals and Israel law in theory should protect these rights. So perhaps the summary of the rebuttals should look like, The Israeli government responded officially to the report, arguing that minors' rights are protected in the justice system and that it responds appropriately to minors' offenses [cite IDF rebuttal], and criticizing the report's methodology [cite Justice rebuttal]. Could be better I suppose, but that's all I got. SamuelRiv (talk) 21:37, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Israel's military operations

Operation :OFERET YEZUKA: 2008-2009 Operation :ZUK EITAN : 2014 Operation :SHOMER HOMOT: 2021 2.55.25.92 (talk) 05:52, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Photo

I removed this photo:

Palestinian child cancer patients on a ski trip organized by Israeli soldiers

Really cool that that happened. But in an encyclopedic article about a war its probably a bad idea to highlight the good things one side does, and highlight the bad things the other side does. This photo is incredibly WP:UNDUE. Polygnotus (talk) 18:22, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is a weird mess. Wikipedia shouldn't choose sides; especially not in a conflict where both sides did horrible things. The article seems to focus on children who are engaged in military action instead of those who are the victims of it. It would probably be wise to delete the entire thing as a POV-fork of the main article about the war. Note that other wars also don't have "children in... x" articles.

The choice of topic dooms this article to be a POV fork, because a country that is very rich can afford to not send its children to war (e.g. by using drones) or when they do they can afford advanced weaponry and armor. Both sides rely on indoctrination (religious or not) to keep the conflict going for yet another generation, but only for one side this is mentioned in the article. Polygnotus (talk) 15:05, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Child Casualties

This aricle is obscenely out-of-date. Why no mention of the children killed in Gaza and Israel thus far and continuing without any end in sight? Where's the credibility? What's the point? 217.180.216.106 (talk) 03:40, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Addressing issues with copyediting

This article is full of bad writing. Because of WP:ECP, I can't make edits, so I'm going to go through and submit a whole bunch of edit requests to try and improve it. Just want to leave a heads up that I'm not intending to spam the talk page, and that I'm very much open to feedback on my proposed changes. Jokojis (talk) 00:45, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 February 2024

Please change The Israeli–Palestinian conflict has historically involved and affected children on both sides, in the leading paragraph to Children and Children's rights have long been a focal point of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Jokojis (talk) 00:40, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: No explanation for this proposed change. Elli (talk | contribs) 21:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 February 2024 (2)

Please change In the 1929 Hebron massacre,[3] 67 Jews were killed, young children among them; Arab youths initiated the violence by hurling rocks at Jewish students as they walked by.[4] to The 1929 Hebron massacre claimed the lives of 24 yeshiva students, as well as children under 5.. New source included. The former phraseology quantifies the impact of the event overall, rather than the impact towards children. Jokojis (talk) 03:22, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done

Jokojis (talk) 23:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

References

provided pictures too one-sided

The pcitures on the page dont fully cover both sides. for example: right after the pciture of the childs bedroom covered in blood, the 3 next pictures are children depictad in a pro-hamas enviorment or narrative. or: "Child's shoe found after Gazan rocket fire hit a mall, injuring a child and others" but no comparable picture of Israeli Attacks with child cassualitie, especially from the past months. Kabi13 (talk) 19:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutrality compromised

it is totally one sided and talks according to Israeli propaganda. It doesn't include that how many children of Palestine and Gaza are killed by IDF. A thousand of Palestinian children are killed by Israeli forces till now. So kindly remove this article from Wikipedia to ensure the neutrality of this website 154.198.89.144 (talk) 18:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Incitement to genocide, including children and mothers who breed them

This is an example of a common statement, recently reported in Haaretz but going back via WB rabbinical exhortations to Golda Meir at least Chen Maanit Israeli Police Recommend Closing Case Against Yeshiva Head Who Said All Gazans Should Be Killed Haaretz 18 June 2024 Nishidani (talk) 08:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2024

Please delete the following

"During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, Hamas mutilated, tortured, killed and burned Israeli children as part of their surprise attack on Israel, drawing international condemnation. Hamas kidnapped more than 30 children, holding them hostage in Gaza."

or at least change it into.

"According to some Israeli emergency responders, Hamas mutilated..."

This shouldn't be mentioned at all since most of these stories turned to be fabricated and the sources used are obsolete let alone be mentioned in wikivoice — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 03:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

do you have an RS saying that these stories are fabricated Rainsage (talk) 06:13, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell there were two controversies of misinformation or strangely-still-unverified stuff about mutilation of children by Hamas that went beyond the social media crap (that is, promoted by officials and/or given significant coverage). This should not be taken to discredit the basic fact that all the other stuff that went through mainstream scrutiny has been pretty much verified. The two are the still-unverified 40 beheaded babies and the essentially false (dubious from he start) baby-in-an-oven claim. "Burned Israeli children" probably therefore needs to be checked that it's referencing something else that's actually credible.

The rest happened. Setting aside all the day-of photographic, medical, and testimonial evidence, Hamas officials did not deny the basic nature of the atrocities when asked in interviews after Oct 7. SamuelRiv (talk) 06:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Business Insider is not an RS apparently... The TOI article doesn't say anything about mutilation or burning of Israeli children, just quotes Netanyahu referring vaguely to "atrocities". Need better sources for these claims. Rainsage (talk) 08:08, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on you to show that it's a fact, the sources used are Times of Israel (biased) citing a i24news (apparently owned by the Israeli prime minister) journalist and Business Insider quoting Blinken (SecState of Israel's N°1 ally). These sources are in no way enough to make this due let alone stated in wikivoice.

Read Misinformation in the Israel–Hamas war#Allegations of beheading and ZAKA#2023 Hamas attack on Israel — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 06:51, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

It's truly bizarre to call the 40 beheaded babies story "still unverified". Is it possible that such a thing would not by now have been verified by those working for almost a year to meticulously document all the victims? "Thoroughly established as false" is the only accurate description. The problem with the current sources is that they are too close to the event and appeared while wild stories were still in mass circulation. Find more recent sources or remove the text. Zero^talk 07:08, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

erm, I guess you want to answer the other guy (⁠´⁠ ⁠.⁠ ⁠.̫⁠ ⁠.⁠ ⁠`⁠)... — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 07:58, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, sorry. Zero^talk 10:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

it seems like Haaretz debunked the 40 beheaded babies in this article: https://archive.ph/gO9f8 Rainsage (talk) 08:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

It's still unverified because it's not verified. I don't know if it's debunked -- credibly disproven. But if it's unverified and RS seem to say there's not been credible evidence, then it should not be mentioned at all.

In reply to Rainsage: If the cited RS doesn't say "burned" then we shouldn't say it. Also, you don't cite BI, you cite the sources that BI cites. SamuelRiv (talk) 15:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

BI cites Yossi Landau from ZAKA. Many of his and ZAKA's claims have been discredited by TOI, Haaretz, AJ, etc. [1][2][3][4] Would also prefer to use sources written later than October.

what do you think about my proposed edit below? Rainsage (talk) 16:19, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I think we should include both the Israeli claims and the counterclaims.... agree the cited sources are not great. I will have to look around for some better ones. Rainsage (talk) 08:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

This isn't Israeli claims versus other claims, and no we should not report debunked nonsense. We have "misinformation" articles for that. Zero^talk 10:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

do you have RS saying that the claims have been debunked?

Hamas did kidnap children, so that should be included. Rainsage (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

thoughts?

During the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, about 40-42 Israeli children were taken hostage by Hamas, and 38 children were killed.^{1 2} About 40 children were released in the November 2023 prisoner exchange.¹ Most of the children were killed near their homes with at least 1 parent.⁵ Two Israeli children, Liel and Yanai Hetzroni, died in Kibbutz Be'eri during a battle between Hamas fighters and IDF soldiers during which an Israeli tank fired on the house where they were held hostage.^{3 4} Israeli reports that children were tied together, baked in an oven, or beheaded were later debunked.⁵

1: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/38-children-were-killed-20-orphaned-on-oct-7-the-state-did-not-pass-the-test-of-protecting-them/

2: https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-children-believed-held-hostage-in-gaza-many-of-whom-could-be-freed-in-hamas-deal/

3: https://archive.ph/Zm6bn

4: https://archive.ph/HLmjh

5: https://archive.ph/gO9f8

Rainsage (talk) 04:19, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

IDK if I have perms to comment any further, but please allow me to suggest the following as improvement.

"During the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, 38 children were killed, and about 40-42 Israeli children were taken hostage by Hamas, 40 of whom were released in the November 2023 prisoner exchange."

The rest looks fine to me, although I don't think that mentioning their names is due, and IDK if "Most of the children were killed near their homes with at least 1 parent" is due.

This will be the last time I comment on this, I'll let the pros decide ^^. — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 05:28, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I've made the change, including numbers killed and hostages taken. We will only have secure verified information sometime in the future and for the moment just the known facts are to be registered.Nishidani (talk) 16:41, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Also in Simple English...

Hello, I know the topic is contentious. I just wanted to point out that an aricle has been created in the Simple English Wikipedia (here). I have just summarized the intro of this article, but it might be too litlte to be useful.It also lacks sources. If anynoe wants to contribute, they are welcome. I am aware that the whole of this conflict has been going on for close to a century; there are no easy solutions. Still, Wikipedia isn't censored, but controversial statements need backup from reliable sources. Eptalon (talk) 12:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Removal of the material on child indoctrination

I have shifted this whole section to Textbooks in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. From memory much of this kind of material was introduced in order to assert, as was often done in the late 1990s and early 2000s that Palestinian children were indoctrinated at school, via racially prejudiced textbooks, to hate Israelis. As the academic literature surveyed textbooks in both Israeli and Palestinian schools, it found generally that much of this polemical claim was ill-founded, and that if problems existed, they were comparable to problems in Israeli textbooks. Nonetheless, the accusation, esp. with regards to Palestinians, persisted as a frequently voiced claim.

Indeed this article covered in the removed section a lot of that scholarship, which has almost nothing to do with the issue of children in the conflict (propaganda via media is something that is ingrained in both cultural areas, affecting everyone from childhood to old age, and therefore are not limited to children. Nishidani (talk) 12:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)