Talk:Charites

Web page info

According to the web page at http://courses.educ.ksu.edu/EDETC886/GraphicDesign/modules/mod6/reading_7.html, the Three Graces are known as Castitas (Chastity), Pulchritudo (Beauty), and Voluptas (Lust). Are these the Latin equivalents to the Greek?

The Goddesses

Aphrodite, Hera and Athena Böri (talk) 11:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Charites/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I came to this article to find out what the graces stood for. I wanted to know what qualities were considered to belong to the "graces." While a few traits were listed the article seemed more interested in relative minutiae like how many graces there were, what their names were and whether or not their figures in art were draped. 24.41.41.153 (talk) 11:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 11:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 11:17, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Muses and Charites?

Is there any difference between muses and charites? According to their description, there is no difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.114.201.255 (talk) 23:07, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Move

Obviously, the WP:COMMON WP:ENGLISH name of these figures is the Graces. No idea where the half-Latin "Charites" came from but it needs to go back in the box and be listed (if anything) as an uncommon alternative name. Even if this was supposed to be a natural dab, this name is so uncommon it isn't worth using for that. (Ngram if anyone was confused on the point. Alternatively, read the list of names for the laundry list of artwork in the article itself.) — LlywelynII 14:25, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Charites (Χάριτες) is the Greek name for these figures. See Brill's New Pauly, s.v. Charites (Graces), OCD, s.v. Charites, or Grimal, s.v. Charites. – Michael Aurel (talk) 19:22, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted this move, since I believe that, in the context of Greek mythology/Religion, "Charites" is the common name, notwithstanding that the name "Graces" is more common in the Western art tradition. Paul August ☎ 20:53, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

In addition to the sources provided by Michael Aurel above, as further evidence that, in this context "Charites" is the more common name, see also:

• Bell, Robert E., Women of Classical Mythology: A Biographical Dictionary. ABC-Clio. 1991. ISBN 9780874365818, 0874365813.
• Burkert, Walter, Greek Religion, Harvard University Press, 1985. ISBN 0-674-36281-0.
• Fowler, R. L. (2013), Early Greek Mythography: Volume 2: Commentary, Oxford University Press, 2013. ISBN 978-0198147411.
• Gantz, Timothy, Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources, Johns Hopkins University Press, 1996, Two volumes: ISBN 978-0-8018-5360-9 (Vol. 1), ISBN 978-0-8018-5362-3 (Vol. 2).
• Hansen, William, Handbook of Classical Mythology, ABC-CLIO, 2004. ISBN 978-1576072264.
• Hard, Robin (2004), The Routledge Handbook of Greek Mythology: Based on H.J. Rose's "Handbook of Greek Mythology", Psychology Press, 2004, ISBN 9780415186360. Google Books.
• Kerényi, Karl (1951), The Gods of the Greeks, Thames and Hudson, London, 1951. Internet Archive.
• Parada, Carlos, Genealogical Guide to Greek Mythology, Jonsered, Paul Åströms Förlag, 1993. ISBN 978-91-7081-062-6.

These are just a few of the sources (all among those of which I have at hand) of the many which could be given. Paul August ☎ 21:13, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

• I don't much doubt that "in the context of Greek mythology/Religion, "Charites" is the common name", but more generally Three Graces is far more common, & I'd support a proper RM. It's similar to the recent RM at Talk:Labours_of_Hercules#Requested_move_10_July_2023 I think. Johnbod (talk) 18:48, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

  It's somewhat similar, though I think there's a far better case for the Roman name here. The argument in that case was that the greater popularity of the Roman name in popular culture, art, etc. was sufficient to "override" the essentially unanimous use of the Greek name in modern scholarly sources (and ancient ones), whereas here the Roman name is used by modern scholarly sources in addition to the Greek one (just quite a bit less frequently it seems). There's also the problem that almost all the ancient sources for these figures are Greek (and so refer to them as the "Charites"), and that their cults were Greek. That said, the "Graces" is probably the name most widely known, and the most commonly used across all contexts. Feel free to start an RM if you want. – Michael Aurel (talk) 01:22, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Clothing

The article goes to great length to repeatedly claim

During the Archaic and Classical periods of Greece, the Graces were typically depicted as fully clothed, although they are usually depicted entirely or nearly naked in post-classical painting and sculpture.

There are cites provided. Obviously, those are somewhat undercut by the ancient entirely nude art immediately to the right. Are the sources just extremely wrong? or does "post-classical" now mean "ancient Roman"? or is the art cherry picked and there are other clothed examples we should be using in addition or instead? — LlywelynII 14:50, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The "... Archaic and Classical periods of Greece" stop at c. 332 BC on the usual dating. I've added a clothed Archaic relief, but the vast majority of surviving ancient art from these parts is Hellenistic or Roman. So the sources are extremely right. I've changed "post-classical painting and sculpture" to "Roman and later art", as the nude (the term we use in art history) Graces were very well-established by the Roman period (Pausanias, quoted in the article "Certainly to-day sculptors and painters represent Graces naked") and to avoid the ambiguity between Classical and classical. Johnbod (talk) 18:56, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

And another. What puzzles me is that Commons has no images from vase painting. Johnbod (talk) 00:24, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

WP:ENGVAR

This edit established the usage of the page as American English. Kindly maintain it consistently pending a new consensus to the contrary. — LlywelynII 15:30, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

WP:ERA

Ditto this edit and BCE/CE. — LlywelynII 15:38, 12 February 2024 (UTC)