Talk:Canaanite religion

El is just a general word for any god. Not for the Jewish God.

El is being conflated with Yaweh. This is like saying Thor is Yaweh because he's called a god and so is Yaweh. The El page simply doesn't support this reading. El is just a general term for any god. The idea that Yaweh was split from a Cainenite pantheon seems fringe. Especially in light of Jewish distaste for pantheism. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 14:00, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

For us WP:FRINGE is generally speaking defined by WP:CHOPSY. In other words, Yahweh cannibalizing his father El is not fringe, your POV is fringe. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:12, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

None of this is the subject of the article, and I've removed this stuff from the lead, where it was undue. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:28, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Proposed section: Evolution into Israelite Religion

Given that the Canaanite religious system was subject to a cultural evolution that ultimately resulted in the earliest forms of the Israelite religious system, think there should be a section on this page that covers the elements of this socio-religious transformation in the region. Mistamystery (talk) 21:56, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

If you have any sources that sounds like a great idea, especially since it's so heavily referenced in the bible QueerCB97 (talk) 19:58, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. I don't know how to add it to the page, but a good source is The Early History of God : Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel by Mark Smith. 76.113.21.168 (talk) 19:41, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely agree! 45.244.45.47 (talk) 20:45, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

source n°27 is broken

The link doesn't work anymore 2A01:CB00:8BDE:6400:9046:F2E9:872E:5097 (talk) 15:57, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

YHWH removed

Does anyone knows why YHWH from the list of dieties was removed? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Canaanite_religion&diff=prev&oldid=1220830800 Viceversa r (talk) 20:49, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Probably the typical touchiness. Yahweh worshippers are called different from Canaanites in the canon. I re-added.

Temerarius (talk) 01:34, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Added it again 😂 2001:700:5C00:12B:7992:4EF3:EB2F:B013 (talk) 13:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you and thanks for saying so! Accuracy needs vigilance, traditionalist ignorism requires less.

Temerarius (talk) 21:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Until there is proper consensus YHWH should remain. It seems there are other deities of non-Canaanite origin and possibly not even worshiped in Canaan proper that are on the list (e.g. Azizos, although i could be wrong, the evidence is not readily apparent)

Until all of those are removed I see no reason for YHWH to not be on the list considering it had a big impact on the religion of the Canaanites who later called themselves Israelites and Judahites Teflawn (talk) 22:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think anyone at all says that Yahweh wasn't a Canaanite deity, even if there's debate on a possible ultimate source outside Canaan. (A wide open question, I think.) It's just some would feel more comfortable if his (His, perhaps) name were omitted from lists like this. Unlike some related issues it's not even belief, debate, conviction, it's discomfort, dissonance, implication.

Temerarius (talk) 23:17, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

YHWH was last removed was by Sinclairian stating: "Not a god worshipped in the Canaanite pantheon, even if the related religion included Canaanite deities" So there is clearly some contingent of editors who hold this belief, just trying to stave off an edit war so a proper discussion can be hashed out here instead

Anyway, it's an unreasonable basis to form an argument IMO because of the reason I stated above. It's a non-uniform application of that rule that is clearly targeting Israelite specific topics. As such, that edit or a replication of it would be in my opinion considered ideological in nature, and not academic. Teflawn (talk) 23:36, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, that's just Sinclairian. I brought him (?) to the Administrators' noticeboard recently because his edits are destructive to scholarship in a way that's invisible to anyone not sophisticated to a specialist degree. I've called him a dogged obscurantist, I've called his faith bad, and I'll ping him here so I'm not talking behind his back, which I think might be against the rules. @Sinclairian, is "him" correct? You're hurting Wikipedia and the whole world's knowledge. Anyway, the admins didn't care and didn't want to understand. I don't think he was given any blocks, but there may have been warnings; I stopped replying to my own complaint when I realized... how the sausage is ignored.

As for the list, a few quick thoughts on it. It's kind of anything-goes, it might be more appropriate at a page called list of Canaanite gods. There's a "these are not like these" quality.

"Have I heard of these? Are these even gods?"

Arsay, Arsu, Azizos, Manuzi, Marqod, Shadrafa, Tallai

"Titles, right?"

Ba'alah, Belili, Ba'alat (except Ba'alat Gebel)

"More of a personified concept than a god, right?"

Mot

"Debunked, right?"

Moloch... Milcom?

"Look at all these Lords"

Ba'als Hammon, Hermon, Shamim, Zebub, Zephon, just Bel... no issue, except it makes me wonder why Inanna-Ishtar are a single page. I just checked and Ishtar redirects to Inanna, I think it used to be the other way around, and I suspect neither is quite right.

I haven't tried to remove any also-rans because I tried to remove a nobody from a related infobox and someone didn't let it stand, so I thought it wasn't worth the effort.

Temerarius (talk) 00:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Jean Bottéro ref of Eblaite Ya

I'd like to read this one, can we add a cite to help? Temerarius (talk) 01:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Eretz & Shamayim

It appears that these two putative Canaanite deities, Eretz (Primordial Goddess of Land) & Shamayim (Primordial God of Sky/Heavens) were removed from the list due to lack of sources. This is fine as there really doesn't seem to be much information on these two concepts as divine entities.

However, given the existence of a correlation between ancient Greek religion and Canaanite/Punic, it does present the case for a Gaia & Uranus analog in Canaanite Mythology to have existed.

I came across a website that has this to say regarding 'Shamayim': "Shamayim and Eretz were attested in the 8th century BCE Sefire steles, as well as the Septuagint and Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible"

Does anyone have more information on the Sefire Steles, the wiki page is lacking regarding its contents. Teflawn (talk) 03:18, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

The word shamayim is pretty common in Semitic inscriptions, but usually not in a way that looks like the proper name of a god.

Temerarius (talk) 21:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

yep, i looked more into this and so far i see no evidence of the personification of heavens and earth as primordial gods in the Canaanite religion. Teflawn (talk) 22:13, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I disagree with your sentence when you put it that way. The roles of primordial sky and earth deities are fundamental of any cosmogony I can think of. It's just their names are a matter of take your pick. Variable and mutable, importable and reinterpretable. Their roles and duties less so.

Temerarius (talk) 23:27, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm referring to specifically e.g. Shamayim as a personification of the Heavens. I'm not saying the Canaanites didn't have concepts of the Heavens as an important and mystical concept just that it wasn't a "person-like figure" with a mythology that had done deeds etc. Teflawn (talk) 23:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Why do you say that?

Temerarius (talk) 03:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)