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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Criticism, etc

I accepted the latest revision by an IP, which removed claims sourced to a blog. I'm surprised this has been allowed to remain in the article, and I'm not going to reference RS, etc. Blogs are overwhelmingly not reliable. Please find some other source for all that. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 19:10, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Lack of sources

This page suffers from a serious lack of WP:RS sources. Much of it is either unsourced or sourced to blogs/other primary references. I know the individual is quite notable, so instead of removing content, I have generally just added improvement notifications such that the article can be worked on over time. If it was left as is though, I'd be tempted to AFD it, but think this is a softer step at this time.Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 02:32, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Leiter on Leiter

Some of this material -- notably that supported by current refs 19-22 -- is simply Brian Leiter reporting on Brian Leiter, supported by references to Brian Leiter's non-RS personal blog.

If this were covered by an RS that would be fine to include. But inasmuch as it is only his blog finding his blog to be of interest, it doesn't meet our criteria for inclusion. I plan to delete it, on that basis. But wanted first to note as much here. --Epeefleche (talk) 04:17, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

We usually allow SPS's as long as we can confirm they are by the subject themselves. Kevin Gorman (talk) 16:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. I believe the rule, in part, is that it should never be used as a third-party source about another living person. I think those refs all are his personal criticisms, on his personal blog, of other people. See for example this one, and charges of Campos's "obvious incompetence" and his being a "poster boy for contempt for the First Amendment rights" and that he "lies through his teeth." This is all fine to report on if an RS covers it. But here, it is just Leiter reporting in a personal blog on Leiter's view that the fellow is a liar, etc. Same with the others I flagged. Thoughts?--Epeefleche (talk) 17:30, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
Oh my bad. Sorry, I didn't look at the actual content. Yeah, that's not okay, at all. Kevin Gorman (talk) 17:53, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm not so bothered by that, to be honest. Wikipedia isn't saying X eats kittens, we're not even saying Professor Leiter says X eats kittens. We're simply saying Professor Leiter has been critical of X. Specifically, we're saying "[Leiter] has also written critiques of journalists and philosophers, including Carlin Romano, Thomas Nagel, Leon Wieseltier, and Paul Campos." Which is true. In the current version, we are not repeating what Leiter's critiques of Romano, Nagel, Wieseltier or Campos are, simply that those critiques exist.
That said, there are some third party citations for Leiter's blog critiques. In the case of Wieseltier, the New York Times included mention of Leiter's critique of Wieseltier (or rather of Wieseltier's review of Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel Dennett).
In the case of Carlin Romano, the blog post is mentioned in passing in this Boston Globe profile of Leiter by Mark Oppenheimer.
On Nagel, Leiter's criticisms of him are not solely on his personal blog but are also available in an article co-authored with Michael Weisburg published in The Nation.
The use of Above the Law has been questioned on WP:BLPN (and on this talk page), but they have a blog article on Leiter's critique of Paul Campos.
There may be some reasons to not include this stuff—one could make the argument that it's all a bit meta-blogging inside baseball rather than of lasting encyclopedic value, for instance—but I don't think the sourcing issue holds up given (a) we aren't repeating Leiter's critiques of the four figures mentioned, and (b) there are other, reliable sources that do discuss—or at least mention—Leiter's critiques of these four people. —Tom Morris (talk) 09:34, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
We should and can properly mention his critiques of others that are RS-covered. But Wikipedia is not a vehicle for bloggers to turn their blogs into Wikipedia text -- example by saying "I wrote about x and y in my blog -- here is the link to it, where RSs have not covered the blogging. Especially BLP attacks. Which is what is going on here. The rule, in part, is that self-published material should never be used as a third-party source about another living person. We should be bothered by that.
Again -- if the source is an RS, that's fine ... but the RS ref must be supplied. If no RS source is supplied, as is the case now, then the entries are inappropriate, for the reasons indicated above. Epeefleche (talk) 22:05, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Are all four of those critiques that Leiter wrote "BLP attacks"? The one on Campos might be a bit heated, but the critiques of Romano and Wieseltier seem like professional criticism: a philosophy professor who is criticising the quality of philosophical writing of others who have entered the philosophical realm (by, say, covering philosophy for the Chronicle of Higher Education or by writing reviews of books by prominent philosophers like Dennett). I'm not sure how "professional philosopher says X isn't very good at philosophy" counts as a "BLP attack". —Tom Morris (talk) 16:21, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Tom -- As I indicated above, self-published information should never be used as a third-party source about another living person. You agree, do you not?
The rule isn't limited to personal attacks. Though on top of the breach of the rule, we do have that here, which exacerbates the violation. Clearly, the existing use violates the rule. As it consists of Leiter's personal self-published blog being used as a third party source about living people. The use of it not only "about" other living people, but to attack other living people, simply is exacerbating background. And it is irrelevant to the point that the use violates the rule, since the rule is clearly already violated whether the material is an attack or not. But if for some reason you want to focus on the attacks -- yes, saying someone is not good at their job is no doubt a personal attack, as I use the phrase -- it need not be limited to corporeal matters such as: "you have an ugly face".
Surely, you do agree that these are personal blogs used as third-party sources about other living persons, and hence violate the rule against such use. That's all that relevant. Epeefleche (talk) 21:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Epeefleche: I agree broadly with the principle that self-published information shouldn't be used for facts about another living person. I disagree that the principle is directly applicable here.
What your comment fails to acknowledge is that there is a difference between using a source to reference a fact, and using a source to reference an opinion. The article is not using Leiter's blog as a source for some set of objective facts about the targets of Leiter's critiques. The only thing the sourcing is doing is saying that Leiter criticised those people. The BLP policy and the RS policy is not a shortcut to using your brain. And Wikipedians who use their brain are able to distinguish between a source for a fact and a source for an opinion. The use of Leiter's blog is to source the fact that Leiter has criticised some people (Wieseltier, Campos, Nagel, Romano). Read the critiques. There's nothing in them that is claiming some fact about any of those four people, simply engaging in what English law would call "fair comment". Leiter thinks Campos holds some morally indefensible opinions, that Wieseltier is a crappy critic of philosophical books, that Nagel's understanding of Darwinism is lacking and Romano is a rubbish journalist. Those are all facts about Leiter's opinions, not objective facts about any of those four figures.
Consider a similar article—PZ Myers. Myers is a biology professor and blogger. His blog posts are, by Wikipedia's policy non-reliable. And yet, bang in the middle of the article we have a few sentences describing Myers' dispute with Stuart Pivar. The article on Myers sources the fact that Myers strongly criticises Pivar's theory, sourcing it only to Myers' blog. This has been discussed at RSN and found to not be a problem.
I think you are reading the BLP policy and seeing too much in it. The point of the policy is to tilt Wikipedia's editorial policies in favour of privacy for borderline notable individuals, to try and prevent Wikipedia from being a platform for outing, dirt digging and shit-stirring, not as a way to prevent inclusion of a reference to one academic criticising another for his or her ideas or writing, which is what we see here with Leiter's critiques of Wieseltier, Romano and Nagel. There might be a bit of space for argument when it comes to the critique of Campos, but the other three seem to be critiques of the subject's authored works (Wieseltier's review of Dennett, Romano's journalism generally, Nagel's Mind and Cosmos).
Leiter's blog is a self published source, for Leiter's opinion. That's all we're talking about here. The dreadful BLP violation you seem to be alleging is "philosophy professor finds fellow writer's book/article to be not very good" rather than, say, revealing dubious criminal pasts, irrelevant personal issues and so on. —Tom Morris (talk) 10:49, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Tom -- The rule is simple. Self-published information should never be used as a third-party source about another living person. You of course agree with that.

If the self-published information contains an opinion as that fact "x" is the true as to a living person, we should not use the self-published information. Wikipedia is not -- and I'm sure you wouldn't condone it as such -- a place for bloggers to republish the fact that they have written on persons x, y, and z. Where no RS has covered it.

Where an RS has covered it, it's of course fine to reflect it ... with a proper, non-self-published, RS source. Otherwise, one can simply link generally to his blog in the EL section, and that's quite enough advertising for Mr. Leiter's blog. Nothing more is called for.

Frankly -- if no RS is covering it, it is not noteworthy enough to cover in the Wikipedia article. Wikipedians who, as you put it, "use their brain" -- as well as those who follow our guidelines, which were crafted by the consensus of Wikipedians using their brains, and should therefore not be easily dismissed as you seem keen to do -- can without effort see the wisdom of that. Why in the world you, of all people, seek to turn this Wikipedia article -- in this small part only, of course -- into an advertisement for Leiter's blog ... where no RS covers it ... escapes me. Surely you understand that we aren't here to promote as" notable enough to cover", material that no RS ever saw as sufficiently notable to even mention. (Conversely, if an RS covers it, it is appropriate to cover in turn).

This is very simple stuff. Epeefleche (talk) 07:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Merging controversy section with Philosophical Gourmet Report entry?

I am boldly hatting this conversation for the time being. Until the larger issues are dealt with, this is pretty much a side issue that will just generate additional drama
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

There appears to be no support for merging the Gourmet Report entry with the entry on the subject. I think the Gourmet Report deserves its own entry, given its prominent place in academic philosophy for 25 years, as evidenced by the many refs that Epeefleche and others have added. I suggest that the current controversy section be merged into the Gourmet Report entry, since it centers around the subject's role (or former role) in that Report. Opinions of other editors? Thank you.Philosophy Junkie (talk) 14:30, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

It may be that that will be the ultimate result. But on what basis do you assert that "there appears to be no support for merging"? And, in any event, the controversy that you continue to seek to whitewash -- you as an editor who emails the subject of this article, and whose initial substantive edits have been to his article -- the controversy of course of great moment both to him and to the report article. Epeefleche (talk) 03:30, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
To the extent that it makes a difference, I've changed my mind on merger. To be clear, I am against merger of the two articles generally, and also against merging the controversy section of this article with the PGR article. I think they probably do belong separately at this point as Leiter is being replaced as editor of PGR and the ranking seems to still have cache with academic philosophers. The controversy about Leiter should probably be mentioned in both entries, but I'd like to leave exactly how long and how phrased such mentions ought to be to discussions specific to each article/section. Sneekypat (talk) 16:49, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
@Sneeky -- I understand your view on merging the two articles, and can see the points on both sides on that issue. As Leiter's role has been reduced, and apparently is to be further reduced, the argument strengthens to keep them as two articles. I also agree with you that should the articles remain separate, it would not be appropriate to merge the controversy section of this article with the PGR article. The controversy is highly relevant to both him (it related to his behavior, and removed him from a highlighted position in his career), and to the report (it resulted in a change in leadership of the report, which formerly was called the Leiter Report, reflecting his imprint on it and connection with it). Epeefleche (talk) 22:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree that the case for merging is not very strong, so I think we should focus on revising the recent controversy, so it does not dominate the article.Philosophy Junkie (talk) 02:21, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
As an editor with an email correspondence with the subject of this article, and one whose edits have been highly of the "whitewash" variety, I fear your comments and edits are often not appropriate. You keep -- both in edits and comments -- on trying to whitewash the RS-supported information in this article that Leiter himself may prefer not be here. He may be your email buddy, but you have a conflict of interest here. Please stop trying to whitewash this article. Epeefleche (talk) 04:00, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of what's going on

  • Brian Leiter is a controversial but in fact quite influential philosopher. It is likely (by which I mean it was previously directly confirmed) that some of the pro-Leiter edits have come from academics affiliated with Leiter in one or another. It is also likely (by which I mean it was previously directly confirmed) that some of the anti-Leiter edits came from academics with negative views of Leiter. Neither liking nor hating Leiter invalidates your editing as long as long as you follow WP:NPOV etc.
  • It is fairly obvious (I've found at least one such post) that some editors recently drawn to this article were done so by calls-to-action from outside groups. It's worth noting these calls-to-action rarely have lasting effect regardlesss the subject. This has included sock and meatpuppeting in the past.
  • At least one serious instance of attempted WP:OUTING occurred here in the relatively distant past. If you even think you may be violating outing, email me asking about the material beforehand. If I find you to have maliciously attempted to violate WP:OUTING here I'm basically infinity banning you.
  • This page will be edited according to standard Wikipedia policies. Sourcing discussion will follow WP:RS. WP:RSN is that way if you need it. Neutrality discussions will likewise be grounded in policy - WP:NPOV/N is thataway if you need it. And, again, it doesn't inherently matter if a source is pro- or anti- Leiter, we don't weight sources by how well they like (or hate) their subjects.
  • Discussion on this page will remain relatively civil, you can disagree without resorting to personal attacks. Unless someone else brings it up somewhere, I will probably be the person enforcing it.
  • I probably missed some significant points. That doesn't mean that policy I didn't explicitly mention doesn't apply here.
  • I am an administrator. I have had some past involvement in this page, but not to a level that I feel violates WP:INVOLVED. This is going off memory, but I think I made a minor removal of what was basically vandalism at Leiter's request (I'm involved enough in academic philosophy and Wikipedia, that yes, he apparently had my email - though I may have emailed him previously since I use the Leiter Report as a limited source occasionally.) I've also semiprotected this page on at least one occasion after repeated vandalism. Despite these paste interactions, I don't think I fall as involved and intend to act as an uninvolved administrator and general neutral mediator on this page as I have the time. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:09, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Controversy

I have no idea why a more than year old discussion about meatpupppetry would be an appropriate place to add new comments. If you would like to discuss new points, please discuss them in new, relevant sections - they'll be at most not noticed here.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

There is current somewhat of an edit war occuring on Brian Leiter as a result of some referenced, but not academic, material being added that criticises the subject of the article. I have done a little Googling and there seems to be a fair body of people critical of Brian Leiter. Can someone more familiar with philosophy review the available material and if appropriate post a suitably referenced and WP:NPOV criticism section?

The following may help: (Redacted) Lineslarge (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

The edit war appears to be created mostly from Chicago IPs, including one registered to the University of Chicago, and a single-purpose account that bears an extraordinary similarity in name to one of Leiter's colleagues. This pattern (as I learned following an IPs recommendation to look into the archives) has been going on for a while. It is my suspicion, as well as the suspicion of past editors, that the article's subject himself, and his colleagues, are participating in the maintenance of the content to suit a specific POV, which would be a clear conflict of interest as well as intellectual dishonesty. I'll post at some relevant WikiProjects to see if extra eyes can't be brought over. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:43, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I saw that too and think it seems pretty plausible that edits are being reverted by someone with a WP:COI. Currently though the article says nothing negative about the subject. If there is something valid to say, I suggest we get consensus here before adding it, then we can collectively ensure the article stays WP:NPOV, Lineslarge (talk) 21:51, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
  • I've been involved in a lot of philosophy related stuff lately. Someone I've been working with flagged this issue for me to take a look at earlier today. I'm currently talking with several people off-wiki, and am hopeful that issues on all sides here will be resolved in large part in the near future. Sorry for not giving more details here, but they would be oversighted as WP:OUTING. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:05, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
  • At the present time I am not going to fully protect this page, but I would encourage all editors present to act with care, paying careful attention to our core content policies, and preferably reaching consensus on the inclusion or exclusion of content before editing the article itself. I would suggest that it may be a good idea for interested editors to work together on a new draft of the article (or portions of the article) in a sandbox if they feel it's necessary, although obviously that's up to you all. I would encourage you not to worry a significant amount about COI/sock/meat issues at the present time; I'm pursuing a chain of conversations that I believe will deal with a lot of the potential problems with that regard. I would also encourage editors to stick to using high quality reliable sources and to pay special care to WP:NPOV. Best, Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:49, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Hi Kevin Gorman I found this article while checking up on the list of Pending Changes in my capacity as a reviewer, so I don't have a perspective on this subject one way or another. What quickly became clear was that sourced information had been added, then removed by a Chicago IP with insufficient reason, then re-removed by another questionable IP, then a questionable SPA sprang up and removed the content, as did another infrequent (though autoconfirmed) eidtor. Then going back through the talk page history it appeared that this has been an ongoing practice by individuals close to the subject, and/or by the subject himself. I filed a Sockpuppet investigation as I would do in any similarly compelling case of suspected sock/meatpuppetry. I'm disclosing that to you in the interest of openness and to invite you to participate. The situation that you are describing is not one that I am aware of experiencing before in my general antivandal work. On the one hand, if there's clear evidence of sock/meatpuppetry (which I believe there is here per WP:DUCK), a record of that suspicion should exist so that if there are future violations, editors know what they're dealing with. I don't think that's unreasonable considering the previous accusations of socking in the top secret version of the talk page archives. On the other hand, since blocks aren't meant to be punitive, rather to dissuade improper use of Wikipedia, I have no inherent interest in blocking IPs or users if you feel that your personal influence can persuade them to contribute constructively to the project and perhaps to steer clear of COI issues. If you have the ears of the interested parties, you might mention that the preferred method for dealing with such changes is to disclose conflict of interest and to use the {{request edit}} template on the article's talk page. If I can be of any other help, please let me know. I don't want you to think that I'm your antagonist (and so far I don't get the impression that you do.) I also don't like to think that I might be an unwitting accomplice in an attempt to denigrate another person. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:26, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
I'll make some comments on the SPI in a moment. I certainly wouldn't suggest that there haven't been COI (and potentially sock) issues on this page in the past, but will state that I'm fairly confident that they won't be an issue in the future. Kevin Gorman (talk) 05:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Linkslarge: those links absolutely do not help, and if you post anything like that sort of link on Wikipedia then you are likely to end up blocked under our policy on biographies of living people. We cannot use pejorative blog posts as sources, and we don't need them on talk pages or anywhere else either. Guy (Help!) 20:32, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

- completely unfamiliar with the guy and contemporary philosophers at large. however, stumbled across this link to a Statement of Concern from some NYU/MIT profs on Facebook: https://files.nyu.edu/dv26/public/Statement_of_Concern.html. came to check wth is going on to find the article completely blanking controversy. this seems quite odd. it must be possible to in some way document the fact there is a controversy about the guy whilst retaining a neutral (non-libellous) POV. 77.103.178.162 (talk) 05:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Just be careful about recentism. It's often tempting with living persons to give disproportionate attention to disputes that they are currently involved in, or have recently been involved in, compared to what may be long and varied careers. Often, much of what is currently on the internet will relate to such topical disputes. But whatever Leiter is notable for, it's not the current controversy going on, with all sorts of accusations on both sides. If you do write about it, try to find neutral and reliable secondary sources, rather than trying to synthesise a story from primary sources. If the dispute ends up with cancellation of his Philosophical Gourmet or with him handing it over to someone else, that will be an important thing to record. But meanwhile, try not to get caught up in the rights and wrongs, or in the details, of a dispute that is still unfolding for a living person. Metamagician3000 (talk) 07:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

- I'm late to the party here, but I think that some of the language currently used in the controversy section should be toned down per WP:BLP and that the section as a whole should probably be shorter. If there is consensus, I will go ahead and prune. Sneekypat (talk) 13:42, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I support the toning down and pruning. I also support the merger, FWIW. Since the controversy appears to only concern the Gourmet Report, a section on the Gourmet Report could incorporate a more balanced version of the controversy. Philosophy_Junkie — Preceding undated comment added 14:12, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Sneekypat that "some of the language currently used in the controversy section should be toned down per WP:BLP and that the section as a whole should probably be shorter." It reads to me as if someone with some personal vendetta is editing into this page and it's lost its neutrality and objectivity. PhilosophyWiki (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2015 (UTC)PhilosophyWiki

I looked at it carefully, and it comports with our BLP section, and the tone matches that of the RSs. There isn't anything substantive that I can see deleting without deleting what the RSs report on and we properly in turn reflect. PhilisophyWiki is an SPA that has just been created, in an article plagued for a long time by sockpuppets (just read the talk page) and SPAs (just read Junkie's talk page), so its opinion should be discounted accordingly. Epeefleche (talk) 07:47, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Sneekypat, Philosophy Wiki, Philosophy Junkie, and Metamagician3000. The article as it currently stands gives disproportionate weight to recent controversies about tone rather than substance. A third of the article is basically devoted to saying that some people think Leiter is rude. Criticisms of tone are getting more space than any discussion about the substance of his scholarship. He's had a 30+ year career in academe. Academe is full of argumentative people who think they're the smartest folks on earth and everyone else is an idiot. Saying he's rude is like complaining that a rock concert is loud. At most his rudeness deserves a single sentence in a criticism section, and most of the criticism section should cite to academic sources that have critiqued the substance of his views. Academics love arguing with each other, so it should not be hard to find other philosophers who disagrees with Leiter on philosophical substance and fill most of the criticism section with substance, and with a minor mention of tone. The issues of tone do not belong in a paragraph in the headliner. Wikaeditor (talk) 01:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Request for Comment

It's pretty clear that this section will result in no improvement to the article. Taking the liberty to close to WP:NOTFORUM etc. Discuss content issues in other sections please.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

}

How much of the controversy section should be reflected in the lede and are there issues with Reliable Sources and Neutral Point of View throughout the article? Sneekypat (talk) 21:09, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

This entry, which has been the subject of problems before, has had an ongoing edit war as to how much should be included about a 2014 controversy regarding the subject and as to what sources are appropriate to use for other sections. Several editors have been involved, there have been accusations of COI and failure to assume good faith and, despite my best efforts, it appears that the current crop of editors is unable to reach consensus on any of these issues. Sneekypat (talk) 21:09, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Fine as is. The section as it stands now is fine. If anything is pared, it should be the block quote.
The controversy is a major event in the subject's career. It was covered by various RSs, as far away as Australia. Over 600 philosophers, including 30 members of his 54-member Advisory Board, signed a statement that demanded that Leiter relinquish control over the management of the Leiter Report. In response, Leiter will step down as editor of The Philosophical Gourmet Report. Obviously, all very significant as to his career -- even if it is buried at the bottom of the article.
This article has for years - and for years before I ever edited it, which is only recently - as the talk page and the article history reflects been a subject of whitewash efforts by SPAs. And by people with a COI with the subject of this article, including one who has carried on an email correspondence with Leiter, about (of all things) WP article content. And in addition, at times by newly minted editors. That effort continues to this day, as reflected above.
We would benefit from seasoned editors (e.g., with more than a couple of thousand edits) opining. And with input from editors whose initial and ongoing substantive focus has not been this article. And with input from editors who do not have an ongoing email correspondence with Leiter about WP articles. Epeefleche (talk) 00:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Thank you Sneekypat for opening this for comment from other editors. Here is what the entry looked like before user Epeefleche began a wholesale rewrite of it:
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brian_Leiter&oldid=662603591. Epeefleche only became interested in this article, when its subject was invoked as an authority on a law related entry, and Epeefleche became enraged and made clear he wanted to discredit the subject (all the documentation is above). Contrary to Epeefleche's continued false assertions I do not have an on-going e-mail correspondence with the subject about WP articles. This is clearly false and illustrates the unhappy state of the discussion, although I have repeatedly asked Epeefleche to assume good faith, rather than trying to bully me and other editors who disagree with him into silence. The subject, Leiter, runs the most widely read blog in philosophy. Thousands of philosophy faculty and students send him links to news stories of interest. I am one of those thousands. I sometimes get a short "thanks" from him, though not in a long time. I e-mailed him years ago about a promotional WP entry on Simon Critchley. Leiter never responded, finally writing about the entry three years later. The subject is, as best I can tell, a major figure in two fields, legal philosophy and Continental philosophy, as his appointment at the University of Chicago would suggest. No one has suggested removing the controversy section, I favor keeping it, but in proportion to the subject's career. Epeefleche asserts, without any RS or evidence, that this was a "major event" in the subject's career. How does he know? What is the evidence? It certainly deserves to be in the article, which is why I added RSs about the controversy. But it is not a major event compared to twenty or more years teaching and writing about philosophy and legal topics. The current lede misrepresents the RSs, as Epeefleche has been told repeatedly. I will be offline for as much as a week, but I hope other editors will carefully review the record of what has been going on here. I have edited philosophy entries for years, this one was locked because of repeated vandalism. Epeefleche ruined a perfectly fair version from mid-May for reasons that some other editors, above, think was retaliatory. The subject provokes strong reactions due to his rankings and his blogs, but we must preserve NPOV.Philosophy Junkie (talk) 00:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
  • This is not really an appropriately formatted RfC, and is unlikely to result in any result worth its salt. Sneek, I would suggest withdrawing the RfC and finding different ways of addressing each issue you brought up.

COI editor

Dealt with
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

As there has already in the past been concern about COI editing on this page, it is worth noting that a complete newbie editor seems to be editing in accord with the past suspected COI editor, and also even though completely new has somehow come to track this page and the page that is being asked to be merged into it. They were also created the same day as another editor with similarly focused edits. This bears watching. See that newbie editor's comments here, as well as his chest-beating as to the subject of this article being a respected person in his blog-like very long postings here. --Epeefleche (talk) 21:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

  • I found the user's posts, although not technical violations of outing since you've disclosed your identity here, vicious enough and evidence enough that he is not here to make productive contributions to wikipedia to indef him. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
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