Talk:Bourgogne-Franche-Comté

pronunciation

why on the Burgundy article it says it's pronounced [buʁɡɔɲɛ] but here it is [buʁɡɔɲ]...? LICA98 (talk) 05:34, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Article title: Bourgogne–Franche-Comté or Burgundy–Franche-Comté?

The two French regions of Bourgogne and Franche-Comté merged into a new one called "Bourgogne–Franche-Comté" in 2016. This presents some difficulty in English usage. Before their merger in 2016, the two regions were known in English as "Burgundy" (the English exonym) and "Franche-Comté" (with no change to the original French since there's no distinct English exonym for this area). Now that the two regions have merged, would it make sense to continue that usage in English by calling this page "Burgundy–Franche-Comté"? Or should the new region be known exclusively by its French appellation, as the article is currently titled?

I see pros and cons to both cases. Most English-speaking people know Burgundy as Burgundy, rather than Bourgogne. On the other hand, as the merged region is brand new, it may take some time before the terminology in English settles down. What do people think?Mole2 (talk) 01:47, 22 November 2016 (UTC)Mole2 (talk) 02:26, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The general trend over the years has been to de-Anglesise foreign place names by reverting usage in English to the name used in the country where the place is located. A natural path should emerge in time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.21.192 (talk) 20:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Official name in english is "Burgundy-Franche-Comté" https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy/tourism/france-destination-inspiration/destinations-and-tourist-attractions/article/burgundy-franche-comte

I would approve a name change. --Monsieur le Baron de Toponymie (talk) 14:43, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would guess the name choice used on the diplomatie.gouv site is more of a public relations decision than any "official" designation. The navigation path displayed there reads "France: Destination Inspiration", which sounds more like giddy travel writing style than serious official website prose. In any case, I would say subjectively that "Burgundy-Franche-Comté" sounds contrived and awkward, and objectively that we would do better to err on the side of expressing a placename in its local language rather than taking part in a multi-language mash-up term. Eric ^talk 01:35, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, but until English becomes the official language of France, there will never be an official name in this language. The fact that even french official institutional bodies use this "Burgundy-Franche-Comté" exonym is quite significant and I know it's not a rule, but it was sufficient in other wiki pages to make a name change. Have a nice day. --Monsieur le Baron de Toponymie (talk) 10:21, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus that the proposed titles better reflect MOS:DASH, and thus no consensus to move the pages at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 03:29, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

– These French regions are compound nouns and per MOS:DASH where the compound is formed an endash should be used rather than a hyphen. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 06:49, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support, per WP:CONSISTENCY with Seattle–Tacoma International Airport, Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex, and a zillion other such cases, though "compound nouns" isn't the right way to express this ("egg-beater" is a compound noun but does not use a dash). The issue is that it's juxtaposition of equal things, as in Dunning–Kruger effect or Poland–Russia relations. Bourgogne–Franche-Comté is correct because the new region name is composed of the formerly neighboring ones Burgundy (Bourgogne) and Franche-Comté, not three different ones (there is/was no "Franche" by itself; Franche-Comté means '[the] Free County'); that case is like "Austro-Hungarian–French relations", where one of the two names contains its own hyphen.
PS: Austria-Hungary should be next. This should use a hyphen in the adjectival Austro-Hungarian Empire because Austro- is a prefix (same as in post-Soviet Russia). I see a bunch more than need to move: Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, Emilia-Romagna, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Baden-Württemberg, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Bà Rịa-Vũng Tàu Province, Thừa Thiên-Huế Province, Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship, Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship, Boulogne-Billancourt, Arrondissement of Boulogne-Billancourt, Bielsko-Biała, Knokke-Heist, Kalinga-Apayao, Ruanda-Urundi, Ubangi-Shari, Mongmong-Toto-Maite, Guam, Province of Barletta-Andria-Trani, Province of Verbano-Cusio-Ossola, Adana-Mersin Metropolitan Area, Alsace-Lorraine, Dover-Foxcroft, Maine, Leo-Cedarville, Indiana, Little River-Academy, Texas, Melcher-Dallas, Iowa, Miami-Dade County, Florida, Milton-Freewater, Oregon, Matanuska-Susitna Borough, Alaska, Sedro-Woolley, Washington, Soddy-Daisy, Tennessee, Winston-Salem, North Carolina, Brandýs nad Labem-Stará Boleslav, Manawatu-Wanganui, Schleswig-Holstein. Most of these came from List of double placenames, which will need editing after the moves. And please clean up the articles after the moves. In compiling this short list, I checked a bunch of those that correctly had the en dash in the title and found that they did not in the body. I fixed that with a bunch of them (in inbox, lead, body text, captions, and titles of cited works (even that should be done, per MOS:TITLECONFORM); one has to be careful, though, because of image names, URLs, and off-wiki pages like at WikiTravel. Also, remove any -, or –, from the DEFAULTSORT, which should be letters only.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:16, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SMcCandlish: We're digressing here, but I must note you're contradicting yourself from Talk:Friuli-Venezia Giulia#Hyphen, again: Removing the hyphen here (and it clearly should be a hyphen not an en dash per MOS:DASH: "use a hyphen in compounded proper names of single entities: Guinea-Bissau ..., Wilkes-Barre") results in a name that has less historical/etymological meaning (i.e., that this is a merger of two previously separate jurisdictions), but that's a decision that was made in the real world, and it's not WP's job to force the real world to make more sense according to us. :-) (Emoticon yours ;) ). No such user (talk) 11:59, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was actually wrong in the Talk:Friuli-Venezia Giulia#Hyphen, again discussion; Friuli–Venezia Giulia was a merger of Friuli with Venezia Giulia. However, the placename is no longer spelled with horizontal line in it officially, so it could possibly move to Friuli Venezia Giulia; the two RMs there proposed this, but maybe too soon after the change. Today, a dash or hyphen is still pretty common but no longer seems to dominate. However, it's much clearer (in English, anyway) as Friuli–Venezia Giulia.
The distinction is between a placename being "a fusion of place A and its neighboring place B", which takes an en dash, versus "name composed of dissimilar things, like country and capital" (as in Guinea-Bissau – and this habit seems mostly to be French, as it's not something we'd natively do in English), which takes a hyphen, or "name composed of things that aren't to do with geography at all" (as in Wilkes-Barre), which takes a hyphen, or "name with a prefix or suffix" (as in Austro-Hungarian Empire), which also takes a hyphen. It's the juxtaposition of comparable entities that calls for the en dash.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:34, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But it still seems to be at odds with MOS:DASH: Wrong: Austria–Hungary; the hyphenated Austria-Hungary was a single jurisdiction during its 1867–1918 existence. I would say that it does not matter whether the components were distinct entities once, but whether they constitute a single entity now, in which case a hyphen is called for; an en-dash should be used only if the compound is made ad hoc but the components are still separate entities. No such user (talk) 13:20, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Makes sense. --Jayron 32 14:32, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. MOS:DASH says Generally, use a hyphen in compounded proper names of single entities giving the hyphenated Austria-Hungary was a single jurisdiction during its 1867–1918 existence as an example. All of the listed regions are single entities. As a matter of fact, I can't find a single English book (a type of publication where one would expect higher typographic standards) that uses ndash for Rhône-Alpes, arguably the most famous of those, and not a single Latin-script Wikipedia uses one at d:Q463. Ditto for BBC or Guardian. No such user (talk) 15:25, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

:The problem with using hyphens is the ambiguity it creates with a term like "Bourgogne-Franche-Comté" That punctuation glosses as a merger of three territories: Bourgogne and Franche and Comté. Which is wrong. It's the merger of two territories: Bourgogne and Franche-Comté. How do you remove the ambiguity? --Jayron 32 15:06, 2 August 2018 (UTC) scratch that. Better idea below. --Jayron 32 15:08, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. This is a really tricky issue, but ultimately I oppose the blanket approach used here. I don't have a problem with using the endash for Bourgogne–Franche-Comté or Centre–Val de Loire, as each of these are mergers of two former regions into a new, larger region. But French usage has hyphenated, rather than endashed, Rhône-Alpes, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur and Poitou-Charentes for many years. Shouldn't we follow French usage? Mole2 (talk) 14:08, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The reliablest source uses hyphens for both in Bourgogne-Franche-Comté. That's good enough for me. --Jayron 32 15:08, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 8 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 16:06, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bourgogne-Franche-Comté → Burgundy-Franche-Comté – WP:UE; Per the discussion from 2018, and the November 2020 affirmation in that discussion, the name in English uses "Burgundy" via the traditional translation of Bourgogne, as the French government renders it: [1] -- 67.70.26.89 (talk) 05:00, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – Awkward mélange of English and French; see discussion above. Note that the source cited by the nom, while under the umbrella of the gouv.fr domain, is a promotional website, and states at the bottom of the page that the content is adapted from Atout France, which is a government-sanctioned tourism agency marketing to Americans, and I would say not likely to be reflecting any official naming conventions. Eric ^talk 11:56, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Awkward mélange of English and French; see discussion above. Website not RS. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:02, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above arguments.--Ortizesp (talk) 15:14, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose see above --Devokewater (talk) 16:42, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Capital city of Bourgogne-Franche-Comté region

The capital city of the region is Dijon according to Decree 2016-1268 dated 28 September 2016 issued by the French Government (https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/JORFTEXT000033161477). The Decree uses the French term "chef-lieu" which is translated as capital according to any classical French-English dictionary. In fact the region is the merger of 2 former regions of France : Bourgogne on one end and Franche-Comté on the other end. The former capital city of Bourgogne was Dijon and the former capital city of Franche-Comté was Besançon. When both regions merged, there was a debate on which city would be the capital of the new region. The decision was made in the decree mentioned above. Even if the seat of the Regional Council is in Besançon, the capital or chef-lieu is Dijon. The other region of France where there is a similar situation is Normandy where the capital city is Rouen but the seat of the Regional Council is Caen. Christophe47 (talk) 08:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is more complicated than that in reality. I returned to the version of November 24, 2023 which was changed by an IP unjustifiedly. It differentiates the prefecture from the headquarters of the regional council, as on the page in French. Please do not modify. Maconan (talk) 18:08, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for what you did to the page. I agree with it even if the reality is that the word "chef-lieu" in French corresponds to the capital city in English. It would also be beneficial to all if you could elaborate on what you claim as "more complicated than that in reality". I just referred to the decision reached by the French Governement in 2016 after having taken into consideration all the necessary steps given in the French Constitution. It would also be benefical for all if you could include references to your claims. Christophe47 (talk) 19:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]