Talk:Black Betty

ZZ Top

Please Google ZZ Top and Black Betty, and see on their official website.......the article incorrectly said that ZZ Top never recorded this song. THEY RECORDED THE MOST POPULAR VERSION of this song, by FAR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.202.11.239 (talk) 23:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I Googled, I searched, I went to ZZ Tops's website and checked their discography. You are entirely incorrect, so I have reinstated the article. Please provide a link to a reputable source to back your claim.--Design (talk) 10:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

meaning

Okay so we have a well researched page with lots of history...Thought there is no mention at all of what the song is about? Came here yesterday to get a bit more background about the song, spiderbait can be a bit hard to understand, and there was nothing. Any one who knows what it's about care to update the page? Eps 0136 13, July 2006 (GMT)

As can be seen in their video, they have kept some of the original lyric but otherwise have added some and transferred Betty as the woman, or the wagon, to a chopped black hot rod deuce coupe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.72.157.172 (talk) 15:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Check out Albion's Seed - Four British Folkways in America, p 673 "As morning approached a bottle of Black Betty [whisky] was sent to revive the bride and groom and the merriment continued, sometimes for several days. Poem by Cumberland bard Robert Anderson circa 1700s: ..."The breyde Johnny Dalton's h'sh dowter, And Betty was weel to be seen." —Preceding unsigned comment added by MicheleFloyd (talk • contribs) 18:24, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how [Lead Belly's lyrics] are about anything but a literal woman, her baby and the singer disowning the baby:

(exact repetitions removed)

Oh Black Betty, bam-ba-lam

Black Betty had a baby, bam-ba-lam

Damn thing gone crazy, bam-ba-lam

Baby wasn't none of mine, bam-ba-lam

Damn thing gone blind, bam-ba-lam

Yeah Black Betty, bam-ba-lam

Whoa Black Betty, bam-ba-lam

Looky here, Black Betty, bam-ba-lam

Jump steady, Black Betty, bam-ba-lam

Drugs

Does black betty have any drug connotations? Heroin, Hash, etc, something blackish?

This was the first thing that came to my mind when thinking about the meaning of the song and I've also heard several other people talk about the song assuming that it was referring to black tar heroine. I came here to check it out and thought it was strange there was no reference to drugs at all in the wiki article. Cutchins (talk) 23:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It pre-dates black tar heroin by 30 or 40 years, at least . When the song was collected at Sugarland, heroin was white, and a brand name for di-acetyl morphine. Pustelnik (talk) 03:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Bennies is drug slang for Benzedrine, and Black Beauties is drug slang for amphetamines, so part of the confusion may lie there. --User:Nil_Failstorm 3:58, 31 March 2010

Lynyrd Skynyrd

Wasn't 'black betty' also covered by Lynard Skynard?

Yeah I'm pretty sure it was covered by Lynard Skynard! Insaneassassin247 23:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Nope take that back...the version that is often labeled as Lynard Skynard is actually Ram Jam. Insaneassassin247 23:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Anon user added Lynyrd Skynyrd again to list. I'll remove it until a citation can be supplied. I did a quick web search and could not find it on a Skynyrd discography. --Design 11:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

10,000 Maniacs

I seem to remember them doing it as well, with strobe lights. Does anyone have a referrence? Pustelnik 20:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Nazareth?

isn't it black betty by nazareth in the dukes of hazzard?

• No, definitely not. Spiderbait is credited on the soundtrack. Justin Bacon 15:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• • No Spiderbait is not correct either. The Dukes Of Hazzard Soundtrack uses the Ram Jam version. See[[1]]

I've removed Nazareth from the discography. I can't find any discography of theirs that lists the song. --Design 13:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Ricky81682 removed the following section:

Misattributions

Sometimes this song (particularly the Ram Jam version) is misattributed to other '70s rock acts: Golden Earring, ZZ Top, Nazareth, Bad Company or Lynyrd Skynyrd

On his 1964 album Ballads, Blues and Boasters, Harry Belafonte recorded a song called "Black Betty (You're A Mean Old Gal)", but this is a completely different song.

- please note that while I agree that this section needs proper references, it would be good to reinstate it. This article suffers from editors putting in the above missattributiions as unreferenced fact, such as the recent edit by User:Hygatea. Thank you.--Design (talk) 10:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

References

Who wrote this song?

Is there an authoritative reference for Leadbelly writing this? The AMG reference says "Leadbelly/Traditional" which is not reflected in the article. The article says it is a work song which suggests it was trad. The fact that the earliest recording was not by Leadbelly also casts a little doubt on his writing it. I can't help feeling that its a trad song that Leadbelly perhaps modified. Nurg 06:53, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Did Leadbelly write the song? LOL! Are you accusing a three time felon of lying? Actually, there's an easier explanation, Leadbelly describes his songwriting, as sampling of songs sung in the fields (He had two radio shows, and even interviews, still around today), and lots of free time in prison. Leadbelly spent lots of years in prison. (He murdered a man, and stabbed two more, three incidents). He earned early release twice, the final time, he only served 8 months. He earned early release for his song writing, and singing. Lomax, bought his songs, and others recorded them. Lomax paid the prison, not Leadbelly, while he was incarcerated, and others sang his songs. Lomax (self described White Ballad Hunters), hired him from the prison and got him out on early release for "driving". His driving, involved singing in his prison garb. If Lomax defined "black betty", then that's the second hand definition of the song, by someone as reliable as someone profiting off of someone else's labor to get out of prison, and then trying to sell it. there are no angels here, only angles.

  Leadbelly wrote songs, and some of those songs earned him an early release from prison, twice.  His definition of song writing, included borrowing from songs he sung in the field as a child. Leadbelly had a early radio show, and also did interviews.  The interviews are on youtube.  But, Leadbelly's definition of song writing, is not the strict, no sampling copyright rules of today.  It's the work of a man with lots of free time, and people whom exploited his labor, and marketed it.  Leadbelly died with a net worth of $100,000 in 1949, the result of 13 or 14 years of hard work, the years he was out of prison.   Other artists made millions off of his songs, but they stayed out of prison.   The prison officials admit to selling his work, but even today, Louisiana prisoners work for pennies.   The prison guards appear to be bragging about their talent, at finding talent in prison. (There is even a film, about the "discovery", by Lomax, where Leadbelly stars, in his prison garb., you can find it on youtube.).   Like any good agent, Lomax took most of the money.         — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14F:8200:5320:EC72:A1A8:4E80:1C24 (talk) 22:19, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 

The song started as a "marching cadence" by the pre-revolutionary English foot-soldiers. The "Blam-alam" refers to the two explosions you hear when firing a flint-lock black powder rifle. First, the powder ignition of the flint, and then the actual firing of the chamber. A "Black Betty" was a long rifle that was used in the early 1700's eventually replaced by the "Brown Bess". Black or brown, the names refer to the color of the wooden stock. Here is a quote...

"The fully functional Short Land Service Musket (New Pattern) used by the 64th Regiment of Foot replicates the firearm issued by the British Army as a result of the 1768 Clothing Warrant. This musket came to be affectionately called the "Brown Bess". While the exact origin of this nickname has become obscured over the years, one explanation states that the name came from the colour of the walnut stock. Prior to the "Brown Bess", stocks were painted black."

"Black Betty had a child"... the Brown Bess {uncredited} {unsigned}

... If you have a reference for your anon. comments above please put both in the main article. -- Design 09:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I found the source of the "Brown Bess" quote at http://www.cvco.org/sigs/reg64/bess.html [[2]] , but no info. yet about "Black Betty" being a marching cadence--Design 11:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I added some information about the possible origins of the term "Black Betty" being used as a reference to the "Black Maria" -- the paddy wagon used for prison transfers. In his book "The Land Where the Blues Began", Lomax has some verses mentioning "Black Betty" and her driver "Uncle Bud" that were sung by convicts working at the state prison farm in Sugarland, Texas. I will add these shortly. Also in his book, Lomax discusses how the Africans and their decendents picked up some songs from Irish workers as well as British colonists. He states further, however, that in most cases the lyrics and rhythm of the original songs were altered to fit a more African idiom.--Johnnydc 00:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Could someone clean-up my references a bit. I'm a bit confused on how to do them properly. I tried to put all the relevant info in a "ref" tag, but I don't know if I did it correctly. Thanks. Johnnydc 01:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is the Brown bess reference still in the article? it doesn't explain it at all, and I had to come to the talk page to learn what is the connection to the song. Either remove it, or add in something that explains the reference. 71.127.245.38 (talk) 18:02, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

It does explain it. Kellymoat (talk) 18:13, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Uncited sentence moved from main article

The term "black betty" has evolved into a derogatory phrase that degrades and is offensive towards black females. Not the kind of thing you want in an article uncited. Λυδαcιτγ 04:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It's Lead Belly

Everybody: it's "Lead Belly", not "Leadbelly". See the discussion. -- Face 09:33, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

List problems, etc.

I added the tag to the "in the media" list for several reasons:

• Some items in the list could possibly be duplicated on the "Selected list of recorded versions" list, or vice versa.
• For the Movies and Television lists, I think each item needs more information to make it useful (like scene it appeared in, who was performing it, and so on).

What if someone came to this article hoping to identify some media production where the only thing they know is that "Black Betty was on it, I think..." So they come here trying to figure our what movie or music video or show or whatever they might have possibly heard this song on. It's a pretty common use of Wikipedia, I'd think.

Also, unrelated to the lists... is it normal for "recorded by" and "performed by" in the box at the top of a folk song article to have so many different artists? It's not even the complete list. Katyism (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC).

Youtube links?

It would seem that if someone wants to get 'into' the song, the hard rock versions are readily available on youtube.

The Ram Jam version shown in the outside yard is a clean, hi quality vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMLnDuzgkjo

Other bands take Ram Jam's, not whatever previous delta blues or folk version as the starter.

If anyone remembers Pat Travers, he has a clean straight-ahead classic rock version. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gstmUkpoDak

And there's a pretty clean version of the Spiderbait 'deuce coupe' video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWBi2jg7SiU

Spiderbait video, that Youtube link is dead to me. This links works and seems to be official https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU1VfYYKMDk and it includes footage from the film Without a Paddle. -- 109.77.220.254 (talk) 22:35, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Meatloaf covers this, too, but the comments say it's terrible. There can also be found Sheryl Crow, Tom Jones, and Soil versions that might be hit and miss. But if one wished to list these . . ?

There's an audio version from Ministry, with the poster preferring a 60s mustang to a 'deuce'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjo4pVpo-qg

There's a throwaway metal version from Johnny Gallagher. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G03KbK-a2e4

And there's a more original folk version, where Betty again is a woman, and mistress of the 'cap'n at the prison. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiCEVl_9-MM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.72.158.1 (talk) 20:51, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Gone In 60 Seconds

I removed the reference to the 2000 film Gone In 60 Seconds. The song in the opening titles of the film is "Flower" by Moby. The song does not even reference nor sample "Black Betty". Joshuah Hounshell (talk) 16:41, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Removed original research

I removed the following paragraph as it is "original research", but I'm including it here for future reference.----Design (talk) 09:40, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

From the perspective of a writer... If Black Betty is referring to a musket, the child in the song is very likely referring to the musket ball. "that child is wild" meaning the ball didn't always go where it should. "The child is blind" meaning it did not care who it hit friend or foe, "Black betty don't care" meaning the musket also doesn't care who is killed by its child, "that child ain't mine" meaning "it wasn't me who shot my buddy in the back of the head". This is supported by multiple descriptions of the use of the musket in the battlefield. During the Napoleonic/ Russian campaign 1/4 of all French casualties were caused by the rear ranks shooting their own front ranks. The line "she's from Birmingham" also fits as the place where muskets were manufactured.

Lead Belly album cover

Would someone please source a public domain image of one or both of the covers of the original Lead Belly album Negro Sinful Songs and add it to this article?Design (talk) 08:34, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

"Rock" version by Tom Jones?

A while ago, I made an edit to the main article correcting the suspected error that Tom Jones did a rock music version of the song. But my edit was reverted soon after. Tom Jones is not rock music, so I think it is safe to say that he didn't do a rock version of the song. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if I don't receive an adequate response within a few days or so, I will remove that word once again from the intro. Classicalfan626 (talk) 13:20, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

in the context of this article referring to "Black Betty"'s folk song/work song roots, perhaps you would be happy to replace "rock" with "rock/pop" or "rock and pop", since TomJones is predominantly a pop singer. I will say however that Jones has done many rock songs including Talking Heads' "Burning Down the House" and his version of "Black Betty" has a rock drum beat, so calling it a rock version is valid in my opinion.----Design (talk) 09:52, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh, OK. I get it. Classicalfan626 (talk) 12:38, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Caravan Palace

On December 31, 2016, Caravan Palace uploaded an Electro Swing cover of this song to YouTube. In the description, they said that they had played it at quite a few of their concerts that year. I'm not sure how properly to add that info to the article. Could someone look into that? 24.227.253.98 (talk) 05:04, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:SONGCOVER, the Caravan Palace version doesn't need to be mentioned, as it is not so important to the topic. Binksternet (talk) 05:47, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Is Caravan Palace's single really not important enough? With 25 million views on Youtube it's certainly not the least notable cover on the list — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smt42 (talk • contribs) 00:12, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

For a modern era artist that thrives on clicks of the social media, 25 million views in 3 years really is not notable.

If you want to talk about confusion with notability - I'd like to know why so many artists have articles that include the phrase "their debut album is scheduled to be released later this year". I mean, how does someone become "notable" before their first album is even released while Grammy winners who stay out of the limelight go unknown. 2601:983:8280:41B0:A527:9646:7009:55DA (talk) 04:57, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Caravan Palace has almost 2 million monthly listeners on Spotify, Koerner has 807. How are we listing Koerner's cover but leaving off the Caravan Palace because it "lacks notoriety?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack butler505 (talk • contribs) 19:36, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

The number of online views is not by itself a certain indicator of importance to the topic. Views can be bought or gamed. There is no guideline on Wikipedia equating views with notability. What happens instead is that we wait for WP:SECONDARY sources to comment on the cover version, perhaps mentioning how many views, or praising/criticizing the cover for some reason. With independent observers taking note of the cover version, it passes WP:SONGCOVER and can be listed. Also, a charting cover can be listed.

You are correct, Jack, about Koerner having less importance. The cited source does not call out the cover version as something praiseworthy or horribly fascinating; it only lists the cover in passing. That makes Koerner not significant to the topic.

After searching a lot for something to support Caravan Palace's version, I found only this regional source calling out the cover as "amazing" and "unique". It's not a lot go on. Binksternet (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

2024

Just added a note about the Caravan Palace version before noticing the above discussion. I'm not very familiar with standard practice for music articles though, so feel free to edit if unsuitable. I would have expected the link here anyhow. Perhaps references have improved since 2022? /Urbourbo (talk) 14:43, 4 December 2024 (UTC)