Talk:Bhutia language

Manual of the Sikkim Bhutia Language Or Dénjong Ké By Graham Sandberg

Manual of the Sikkim Bhutia Language Or Dénjong Ké By Graham Sandberg

http://books.google.com/books?id=v05AAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:%22Graham+Sandberg%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Jy8eU-CrOaKg0QGsu4HICw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Manual of the Sikkim-Bhutia language, or, Dé-jong Ké (1888)

https://archive.org/details/manualofsikkimbh00sanduoft

Rajmaan (talk) 22:09, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

sikkimese language

sikkimese language must be used to refer Bhutia, Lepcha, Nepali,Limbu(Sherpa), Newari, Gurung,Magar,Tamang,Sunwar languages as a whole and when referring Bhutia language it has to be referred as Bhutia language.

Puskard (talk) 17:28, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

True, this article is misleading. Here, bhutia language is portrayed to represent as a sikkimese language. There are many languages in sikkim like lepcha, nepali, mangar,etc which are all sikkimese language. Kkk1996 (talk) 15:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

True.. this needs to be corrected. This is utterly misleading. Vegetamajin87 (talk) 08:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

How is it misleading? Prior to 1975, so called 'bhutia language' was referred to as Sikkimese. Denjongke itself means language of sikkim. The other languages in sikkim have their own names but none refer to themselves as language of sikkim. 2409:40E1:10F0:DBBA:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 14:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Notation of phonology charts

The phonology charts on this page are rather misleading in that the IPA transcriptions are not enclosed in slashes while (from what I can gather) the Wylie tranliterations are. I think it would make more sense to enclose the IPA transcriptions in slashes (as per the norm) and either leave the transliterations blank (without slashes) or use angle bracket. Is there any reason for this or should I go ahead and change it?

ibarrere 22:58, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: The Study of Language

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 1 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Marlem J., Liannp, Jlia22, Iur444 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Softstarkid, SPLL, Zabdu2, Llill2, Umnawahal, Wsehwail, TramTrimTrom.

— Assignment last updated by UICLing (talk) 19:22, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I have done some edits. The stuff that got taken off, I tried my best to put all of that in simpler words and this is the end result. The changes happened in the Bilabial Plosives, Dento-Alveolar Plosives & Affricates, and the Postalveolar Plosives sections. Marlem J. (talk) 16:25, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Ed Students: Respond to Feedback

Students: Respond to your peer feedback by posting what changes you will make and what should be made to the article based on your peers' suggestions. Click "reply" below to respond. @Marlem J., @Jlia22, @Lur444 UICLing (talk) 16:25, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I can try rearranging the information into charts to make it neater if I can get to it on time because there's still more sections I need to add. I need to search for more examples as well as try to make some things shorter if I can. I will double check on the phonology chart to make sure that it's as up to date as it can possibly be. Marlem J. (talk) 16:48, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I will first focus on creating a vocabulary section with information about interesting/noteworthy vocab in the language. There is a lot of information in the grammar overall, however a lot of it is pretty technical (especially the grammatical sections) so that limits what I can process and add. After the vocab section, as suggested in our peer reviews, I would like to add information about the language's history and add language examples, as well as dialectal differences if possible. To do this, I will read the first chapter, which should have information on these topics. Jlia22 (talk) 03:34, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

SIKKIMESE LANGUAGE IS NOT BHUTIA LANGUAGE

Bhutia language doesn't represent sikkimese language Kkk1996 (talk) 15:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 10 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 22:52, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

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Sikkimese language → Bhutia language – I propose renaming the article "Sikkimese language" to "Bhutia language." The current title "Sikkimese language" can be misleading, as it may imply that it refers to all languages spoken in Sikkim. The term "Bhutia language" is more precise and accurately reflects the language spoken by the Bhutia community in Sikkim.

• • Reasons for the proposed change:**

1. **Clarity:** The term "Bhutia language" specifically identifies the language spoken by the Bhutia people, avoiding confusion with other languages spoken in Sikkim. 2. **Common Usage:** The term "Bhutia language" is commonly used in linguistic and cultural references, whereas "Sikkimese language" can be ambiguous.

I would appreciate the community's feedback on this proposed change.

Thank you for your input. Kkk1996 (talk) 17:27, 10 July 2024 (UTC) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

This should have been listed as a move request, not an RfC. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Support per ngrams they are equally common [1]. The Bhutia are a subset of Sikkimese people, so this title is misleading Kowal2701 (talk) 11:36, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

TITLE SIKKIMESE LANGUAGE IS MISLEADING

The title of the page SIKKIMESE LANGUAGE is misleading and should be changed to BHUTIA LANGUAGE Vegetamajin87 (talk) 09:08, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

yeah..it is totally misleading. It should be changed to bhutia language as soon as possible. Kkk1996 (talk) 17:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

How is it misleading? Denjongke itself means sikkimese language. The so called bhutia language is called sikkimese within the bhutia community itself. TseTen10 (talk) 15:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Discorroboration between phonology?

In the top section it says that “voiceless nasals actually don’t occur at all” whereas in the nasals section it describes voiceless nasals occuring word-initially? Garethphua (言) 05:44, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

REQUEST TO CHANGE TITLE BACK TO SIKKIMESE LANGUAGE OR DENJONGKE

As a member of the sikkimese Denjongpa or bhutia community I am extremely dissatisfied to see the title be renamed from Sikkimese to bhutia language. Denjongke or Sikkimese is a language indigenous to sikkim, Denjongke itself means language of sikkim. The language has been called sikkimese for a long time, more importantly, it is still called sikkimese within the community. When government websites still refer to our language as Sikkimese(bhutia), I don't see how any person would find the title to be misleading. TseTen10 (talk) 15:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 5 January 2025

Bhutia language → Sikkimese language – I am opening this RM on the behalf of User:TseTen10 and several persistent IPs, who have been changing the lede and infobox to list Sikkimese as the language's primary name since October of last year. I've asked to open a proper RM themselves, but I guess they WP:DONTGETIT,

From what I've been able to understand of their arguments, they believe in the face of no WP:COMMONNAME, at least judging by n-grams, one should default to the WP:OFFICIALNAME. Hopefully this RM can draw in more discussion than the last one and a more thorough consensus can be reached; I'd rather not spend the rest of 2025 engaging in admittedly a pretty WP:LAME edit war. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 11:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

First of all I would like to thank you for initiating a move request(I dont know how to do that). As for the request to change the title back to Sikkimese, I would like to point out the following:

1. The name of the language is Denjongke literally meaning Denjong- Sikkim, Ke- language. No other native language of Sikkim has this distinction, Rong ring( Lepcha language) of the Lepchas, Yakthung pan( Limbu language) of the Tsong/ Limbus.

2. The other names used for this language are: Lho ke meaning lho-South Ke-language( a more tibetocentric view) and Bhotia or Bhutia in Nepali meaning of or pertaining to Bhot- Tibet, the latter(Bhutia) being a British corruption of the Nepali word.

3. The language has been called Sikkimese in the Government circulars and Bhutia is only a recent terminology used.

4. It is mostly understood that Sikkimese refers to the Bhutia language, whereas languages spoken in Sikkim can expand to fit other languages.

5. The term Sikkimese is still in use today.

6. There are many other languages referred to as Bhotia or Bhutia.

To further my argument please go through the following work (https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6xs3r33s). It would be fine to change the title to either Sikkimese or Denjongke. TseTen10 (talk) 05:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Since there's no new comment or engagement, I'd also like to point something out to further my argument:

• The word Bhutia means different things in different contexts.

• In Sikkim's context itself, in Government's reservation systems Bhutia is an umbrella term used to include not only Denjongpas but also Sherpas, Yolmos, Dopthapas, Kagatey, etc. which in actuality are different ethnolinguistic groups with Tibet as a common mother culture.

• When talking about language, Bhutia may be confused for Bhotia, or Bhoti( because why not? They're all essentially the same word spelled differently in english).

• I would also like to point out that in Nepals context, the word Bhotey has been used as a derogatory slur for tibetic people.

All in all, the issue I'd like to point out is that, Bhotia/Bhutia is such a vague terminology that grossly undermines the individuality of all the Tibetic cultures that exist within India and Nepal; and with the majority populace being Nepali( in sikkim) or Hindu( entire india), the word bhotia is being shoved down our throats. For the sake of all us minorities, please regard us by our proper name.

In Sikkim, the Denjongke was called Sikkimese much before it was called Bhutia. The erstwhile Monarchial government also referred to it as Sikkimese even though it was not used as an official language( Tibetan, English and Nepali were used). TseTen10 (talk) 14:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Move to Sikimese Bhutia language per these sources:

• [2]: titled A Descriptive Grammar of Denjongke (Sikkimese Bhutia)
• [3]: titled The Life of a Semi-Urban Lhopo/Sikkimese Bhutia Family
• [4]: Afterwards, the Tibetan immigrants formed a new identity in Sikkim and started calling themselves Sikkimese Bhutia from then onwards.
• [5]: titled DECOLONISING SIKKIMESE BHUTIA LANGUAGE AND CULTURAL PRODUCTION: THE JOURNEY FROM COLONIAL REPRESENTATION TO REVIVAL AND RECLAMATION

There are more sources on Google Scholar. Imo this is the best of both worlds and avoids the confusion of just having Bhutia or Sikkimese (WP:PRECISION). Kowal2701 (talk) 00:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

@TseTen10 does this satisfy your concerns? Kowal2701 (talk) 00:42, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Sikkimese(Bhutia) would be acceptable, only because of the fact that Bhutia is a more popular term and would be recognized by more people. The reason why I object to our language being called bhutia is first because, as mentioned above, it is a word forced on us by others, and secondly because it alienates us from the very land we call home, we are called Denjongpa and our language Denjongke, literally meaning Sikkimese people and Sikkimese language, and yet due to political reasons, we are called Bhutia people and Bhutia language.

I would also like to add that the sources which you have provided:

• Graham Sandberg's manual is pretty old and comes from a time our people were called Bhooteahs, Denjongpas, Drenjongpas, Sikhimites, Sikhimese in other sources of the time.

• The rest three sources are post 1975 works, where the Government of the Nepali majority, has slowly but surely renamed the language from Sikkimese to bhutia language, our culture to Bhutia culture, our Chogyal to the Bhutia king, heck they're even trying to change the Government building architecture that were previously being built exclusively in Sikkim style for being too Bhotay.

Also thank you finally for some engagement. TseTen10 (talk) 07:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Great, support Sikkimese language (Bhutia) Kowal2701 (talk) 08:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd also like to request that the language be referred to a sikkimese by default in the body. TseTen10 (talk) 13:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

That's fine, but let's see what others think Kowal2701 (talk) 13:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

how long does this usually take? TseTen10 (talk) 10:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

A few weeks Kowal2701 (talk) 11:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Further discussion required. Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 11:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)