Talk:Berbers and Islam

New article

The original article on this page was replaced with a translation of the article on the German Wikipedia.] The original content is at the bottom of this talk page. Jacqke (talk) 10:06, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: 200DollarTextbook, Veroonikka99.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:57, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 January 2019 and 10 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jlmohn. Peer reviewers: Aurgallagher.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:36, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

POV Problem

This article is terribly written with a clear POV problem. For example, the opening assertion about Berbers being forciably converted to Islam is at best not supported by standard scholarship on the penetration of Islam in North Africa (as opposed to the issue of military conquest as such by Arab armies for much of, but certainly not all, of the Maghreb. Desperately needs clean up. collounsbury 16:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I share the same concerns and agree w/ the tag. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 20:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Good, glad I am not alone. Very queer POV, really, needs a good once over. collounsbury 20:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

It is a bit more complicated. putting "citation needed" won't solve it. Because, it is a question of some seconds to find ten ones. I advice, to avoid the conclusions. Because they are not always trustable. Best regards! Read3r 17:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Mate, I have not the slightest clue as to what the bloody hell the above is supposed to mean. There is no question that the opening asserting, and indeed the entire article is full of claims that are utterly unsupported by neutral scholarship on the subject. Period. collounsbury 17:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

It is just a question of knowledge. However, the article seems to me be inneutral. (Like using "unfortunately", which is not allowed in objective articles). Best regards! Read3r 17:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll be bold and start enhancing the article by dealing w/ those neutrality bugs. I'll go slowly so we can work it out together. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 10:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your initiative. I only wanted to state that i'm a bit busy, and therefore, i cannot review the article with you. I hope collounsbury does. Best regards! Read3r 13:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

A big problem with this article is that it states that Berbers practiced paganism before 1965. I have never met a Berber (and I am one!) that practiced paganism. What happened in 1965? This article seems to be based on a lot of nonsense and either nationalistic drivel or simple made up beliefs. Not only does this article need "Clean up" it needs deletion. Whoever wrote it seems to know very little about the subject. Khaled.

Please use {{POV-section}} or {{POV-statement}} for sentences, then detail issues here. - RoyBoy 04:32, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there were pagan practices from the twelve centery after Christus. What can be said is that the pagan practices remained being mixed or interepretted with islamic spirituality. Read3r 12:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

"Pagan" is a dicey term at best, and should not be used in an encyclopaedia without some serious qualifications. The term has an Abrahamic or Christian bias. Try "animist", "shamanist", "polytheist", "pantheist", etc etc. Kentfx.

To avoid the many problems within the article, try to introduce some type of chronology in the events rather than state opinionated facts that deface the article. Elaborate more on the pre-Islamic history of the Berbers if you mention it and try not to mention political, social, and cultural history in one section labeled "background." Introducing some type of chronology will help lay your ideas out so you can focus on each topic easily. Amir Manu (talk) 22:55, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Berbers and Islam/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

There's a fair amount of information but few links, some poor spelling/typing, and maybe some bias

Last edited at 13:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:28, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Berbers which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Moving content

This content has been the article since 2016, in need of sources. I am replacing it with a translation of the German-language article, which is better sourced. If someone wants to find sources, this could go back into the article.

Content to be replaced
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The Berbers (autonym: Imazighen) are an indigenous ethnic group of the Maghreb region of North Africa. Following the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb, most Berber tribes eventually became Muslims. Presently, about one-sixth of the population of Maghreb speaks one of the Berber languages (mostly in Algeria and Morocco), but most of them also speak some form of Arabic. Berbers are the first non-Arab people to have established an Islamic state. Background The region of North Africa practiced many religions including various forms of pagan rituals, Judaism, and Christianity. The first Islamic forces encountered fierce opposition by the various city-states resulting from the departure of the Byzantines. The weakest of them in the southern and southwestern parts of the Berber territory were the first to fall to the Islamic troops under the Egyptian Caliph in a locally initiated attempt of expansion westward. This first attempt in late 7th century (660 A.D.) resulted in a decisive defeat of the Islamic troops. The Berber queen Dihya (or Kahina) led the indigenous resistance to the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb. For five years she ruled a free Berber state from the Aurès Mountains to the oasis of Gadames (695–700 CE) but finally was killed in combat near a well that still bears her name, Bir al Kahina in Aures. In 750 the caliphs centralized their command in Damascus and a coalition of Islamic forces from Medina, Damascus, Baghdad and Egypt returned in a second attempt following successive defeats in Greece. The Islamic forces in a coalition resumed their conquest of the Mediterranean Sea from the south, through North Africa. A more diplomatic second attempt resulted in a successful alliance with the mainly desert-based Mauretanian tribes (Morocco and west of modern Algeria) then Numidia. The new Muslim northwest African tribes in turn became ambassadors of the Muslim Caliphs, and brokers on their behalf in an attempt to assemble a coalition of forces to engage their common enemy Rome. The new approach was better received by the Numidian tribes of the highlands and were successfully recruited for a joint military venture into Europe and ultimately to Rome and around the Mediterranean Sea. A Moorish chief, Tariq ibn Ziyad, headed these stronger forces under the green flag of Islam and embarked for Europe, taking over most of the Iberian Peninsula. It is then that North Africa west of Egypt was referred to as "al-Maghreb" or the "West" by the peoples of the Middle East. In 670, the Islamic coalition under the command of Uqba ibn Nafi established its camp on the Tunis peninsula and founded the city of Kairouan, about 160 kilometers south of present-day Tunis. The Muslims used the city as a base for further operations against Numidians in the West and along the highlands of modern Algeria. Successive and repeated attacks on the villages of the lower Numidian agricultural valleys by Abu al-Muhajir Dinar, Uqba's successor, forced the uncoordinated Numidian tribes to eventually work out a modus vivendi through Kusaila, a converted Numidian chief on behalf of an extensive confederation of Christian Berbers. Kusaila, who had been based in Tlemcen, converted to Islam and relocated his headquarters to Takirwan, near Kairouan. The tolerance of Islamic preachers among the Berbers did not guarantee their support for the Umayyad Dynasty—which held control over most of the Islamic Caliphate. Their ruling proxies alienated the Berbers by taxing them heavily; treating converts as second-class citizens; and enslaving the southern and weaker nomadic tribes. As a result, widespread opposition took the form of open revolt in 739-40 under the banner of Kharijite Islam. The Kharijites had been fighting Umayyad rule in the East, and many Berbers were attracted by the sect's egalitarian precepts. The issue at hand is the same Numidians had fought against with the Romans (State Religion) whereby the control of the faith as an inherited right of those in control of the state. The new sect known as Kharijism was born on the premise that any suitable Muslim could be elected caliph without regard to race, station, or descent from the Islamic prophet Muhammad. After the revolt, Kharijites established a number of tribal kingdoms in the North African highlands. Their safety was purchased with taxation without representation. A set of Islamic representatives and tax collectors were established as attaches, and known as the Marabouts from the Arabic word "mourabitoun" or attaches whose role was restricted to that of a relay between local tribal council of elders of the tribes (Aarch) and the central authority in Tunis. They had neither mosques nor authority. Their houses served as their quarters and were commonly constructed with a dome above whose Arabic term is qoba and Berber one ta qobe-tt (little dome). Other regions and tribes, however, like Sijilmasa and Tilimsan—which straddled the principal trade routes—proved more viable and prospered. In 750, the Abbasids, who succeeded the Umayyads as the rulers of the Caliphate, moved the caliphate capital to Baghdad and reestablished Islamic authority in Ifriqiya, appointing Ibrahim ibn al-Aghlab as governor of Kairouan. Although nominally serving at the caliph's pleasure, al-Aghlab and his successors, the Aghlabids, ruled independently until 909, presiding over a court that became a center for learning and culture. To the west of Aghlabid lands, Abd ar-Rahman ibn-Rustam ruled most of the central-west Maghreb from Tahert, southwest of Algiers. The rulers of the Rustamid imamate, which lasted from 761 to 909, each an Ibadi Kharijite imam, were elected by leading citizens. The imams gained a reputation for honesty, piety, and justice. The court at Tahert was noted for its support of scholarship in mathematics, astronomy, and astrology, as well as theology and law. The Rustamid imams, however, failed, by choice or by neglect, to organize a reliable standing army. This major factor, accompanied by the dynasty's eventual collapse into decadence, opened the way for Tahert's demise under the assault of the Fatimids. Jacqke (talk) 01:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC) References

@Jacqke: I don't know if you noticed, but the German article that you're translating seems to be more about the Tuaregs than the primary topic. M.Bitton (talk) 12:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton:. I had noticed that. I also noticed that there isn't now a transition from the Arabs to The Berbers (who became THE active force in 711.) This article goes from Arabs invasion to Algeria. And the Berber tribes fought amongst one another and many took up Islam. That's what I was trying to convey in one paragraph. Jacqke (talk) 21:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you trying to summarize the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb? M.Bitton (talk) 21:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

No, but the handover is part of how the Berbers were Islamicized. Not just conquest by outsiders, but also by actions of their own, to include conquest, trading, and enslaving. East to west along the coast and the Sahel, north and south across the desert. Jacqke (talk) 22:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean by "the handover"? M.Bitton (talk) 16:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)