Talk:Benazir Bhutto/Archive 2

HEY GUY THERE IS A MISTAKE IN YOUR ARTICLE

Firstly, let me ask you that who said you that Pakistan failed in 1965 war, the war was a decisive victory of Pakistani armed forces and Ayub Khan and I strongly believe that you are an Indian please stop writing wrong content that only satisfies your own mind and please respect the policies of Wikipedia an honourable website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaharyar.121 (talk • contribs) 15:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ Shaharyar.121 indeed Pakistan lost the 1965 War, Infact Pakistan lost all the war from India , see Indo-Pak Wars MCIWS (talk) 12:19, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GA fail

Hello. I'm sorry to inform to everyone working on this article, that I am failing the article due to the many issues I found while reviewing the article. Please address the following concerns before renomination:

Numbers under 100 should be spelled out, with the exception of centuries, percents, and money amounts.
From 1969 to 1973 she attended Radcliffe College at Harvard University, where she obtained a Bachelor of Arts degree with cum laude honors comparative government. This sentence seems to be missing a word. Perhaps... in comparative government?
This quote, Bhutto would later call her time at Harvard "four of the happiest years of my life" and said it formed "the very basis of [her] belief in democracy". needs a citation.
The first and third paragraphs of the Family section need some citations.
Is Image:Bhuttongabol.jpg a candid image? If not, it needs the website where it came from and a fair-use rationale.
The first and second paragraphs under Prime Minister need to be referenced.
There are two "citation needed" tags under Policies for women.
More recently, she took an anti-Taliban stance, and condemned terrorist acts allegedly committed by the Taliban and their supporters. needs a ref.
Bhutto denied holding substantive overseas assets. needs a ref
The PPP has responded by flatly denying the charges, suggesting that Swiss authorities have been misled by false evidence provided by the Government of Pakistan. needs a ref
The first paragraph under Western Asia needs some refs.
Under Early 2000s in exile, there is a "citation needed" tag and the last paragraph is unreferenced.
Musharraf's allies in parliament, especially the PMLQ, are unlikely to reverse the changes to allow Prime Ministers to seek third terms, nor to make particular exceptions for either Bhutto or Sharif. seems like speculation unless some important journalist or something stated it, in which case it needs a citation
Under Preparation for 2008 elections, three of the four paragraphs begin with On (date)...mix it up for more interesting reading.
Similarly, under International reaction, most of the sentences are in the same format. (Person) said/commented... Mix it up a bit.
Scotland Yard investigation needs refs.
The references section needs major cleanup and formatting. Use Template:cite web to help with that.

Also, there are some grammar and punctuation problems. The article needs a thorough copy-edit. If you need help with this, Wikipedia:WikiProject League of Copyeditors should be able to help out. Good luck with improving the article! Nikki311 21:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sunni/Shia NPOV

I have added NPOV tag to the article after an editor started edit war by removing sourced info that Benazir Bhutto was Sunni. To be neutral I listed both Sunni and Shia factions, but the editor wasn't satisfied with that. --SMS ^Talk 15:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Editors can just look at your contributions page and at the history pages of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto and see for themselves who started the edit was by repeatedly removing sources that indicated that the Bhutto family was Shi'a Muslim, even though every one who knows anything about Pakistan knows well that their religious affiliation is not subject to debate.

The Times, the Sunday Herald, the Huffington Post, the New York Post, the Washington Post and Vali Nasr (in his book The Shia Revival), among others, state that Bhutto was a Shi'a Muslim. The Washington Post interview you provided is not a reliable source, and any reason for a PPP official to state that Benazir was a Sunni is to avoid adding fuel to the sectarian tension. Anyway, this is becoming very ridiculous. Asking someone to prove that the Bhuttos are Shi'a Muslims is like asking to prove that Lenin was a communist. LahoreKid (talk) 16:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sunni Islam.In Benazir Bhutto, Z. A.'s daughter's book, Daughter of the East, Ms. Bhutto clearly states that her father was a Sunni Muslim.[ pp. 38-44 ISBN 0-4939-6960-2 Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: checksum</ref>

Here is the complete quote from Nasr's book.

"Two later prime ministers, the ill-fated Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and his Radcliffe-educated, currently exiled daughter, Benazir Bhutto, were also Shia. Feeling the wind shift in the 1990s, Benazir styled herself a Sunni, but her Iranian mother, her husband from a big Shia landowning family, and her father's name, the name of Ali's twin-bladed sword, make her Shia roots quite visible. In a way, Benazir's self-reinvention as a Sunni tells the tale of how secular nationalism's once solid-seeming promise has given way like a rotten plank beneath the feet of contemporary Pakistan's beleaguered Shia minority."

This makes it very clear that Benazir styled herself as a Sunni in later life. To claim that she was only ever a Shi'ite is simply not true. WWGB (talk) 02:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently you didn't understand what was written. What Nasr meant is that she claimed to be a Sunni, and behaved as such obviously for political reasons. He says Benazir's self-reinvention as a Sunni tells the tale of how secular nationalism's once solid-seeming promise has given way like a rotten plank beneath the feet of contemporary Pakistan's beleaguered Shia minority which means that she could not possibly assume the role of one of Pakistan's leaders while being part of a minority persecuted by a fanatic majority. Also, every other source I provided says she was a Shi'a so this is the only thing that should be mentioned in the infobox. LahoreKid (talk) 18:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand perfectly well what was written, and please stop being so condescending. Whatever her motives, Benazir adopted the Sunni denomination in later life, so portraying her as solely Shi'ite is playing selectively with the truth. You provided the reference, but now only want to accept part of it. That's not how it works. Your comment about "a minority persecuted by a fanatic majority" demonstrate that you are more concerned with pushing your personal POV than presenting a true and neutral position. Now that the complete position is known, any further reversions will be vindictive and disruptive. WWGB (talk) 23:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the above remarks by WWGB here, however curiously outside of the infobox the article makes no mention of this (unless my eyes are deceiving me) - should the article note this or not? Pahari Sahib 23:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Every single source I provided, The Times, the New York Post, the Huffington Post, the Sunday Herald, the Washington Post, call Bhutto a Shiite. If Bhutto, later in her life, portrayed herself as a Sunni if was certainly done for political reasons and it wasn't as explicit as you want to believe. Nasr implies that she distanced herself from her Shi'a upbringing and background. I have provided sources from 6 very respected sources that state she was a Shi'a. Unless you provide reliable sources that explicitly say that she converted to Sunni Islam, the infobox will stay as it is. Also, you removing references to Shi'ism in every article under the pretext that only the religion should be mentioned, then adding Sunni Islam show that what you are doing is nothing less than POV-pushing and I really hope you wouldn't infect these articles with your deeply-rooted hate. LahoreKid (talk) 08:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

3rd Opinion

Very good, secondary sources are provided for the statement that bhutto was a shi'a. 1 good, primary, source is provided that she was a sunni. Secondary sources always carry more weight than primary sources, and are to be prefered per WP:RS. And, at the end of the day, the one individual's statement in the interview linked to above would be undue weight to mention in the infobox in the face of a preponderance of evidence in the other direction. Pastordavid (talk) 20:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok! fine I withdraw. --SMS ^Talk 20:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Shia/Sunni stuff should not be added because there is no way of verifying which sect of religion this woman practiced. Pakistan is a 75% (majority) Sunni state and if she was Shia the nation would make a big deal about all this. Similarly, if a Sunni is a Prime Minister or President of Iran then it would be much talked about. It's very easy to know if someone is Shia or Sunni, especially politicians, the Shias attend the Day of Ashura every year and they only go to their Shia mosques.

My other part of the argument is on the reliablity of the sources that are provided for the Shia/Sunni claims. We should not rely on sources that are POVs of writers because they make errors. For example, BBC News mistakenly stated that Suhaila Seddiqi is an ethnic Tajik but the fact is that she is not a Tajik and instead she is an ethnic Pashtun [1], [2], [3] which is a different ethnic background.--Seminoletree (talk) 16:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well i guess your argument is wrong, haven't you seen the video when she landed in Karachi after a long time in exile, before her assassination, she was wearing a Green Band on her right arm on which it was easily visible that "YA ALI" is written on it, no Sunni would wear it, not if he/she was forced to! That Green Band is called "Imam Zamim", one wears it to ask for Allah's help, so that he/she could have a safe journey! If you haven't seen it till now, go and youtube the scene of Benazir's arrival at Karachi, soon after she came out of the plane crying along with Naheed Khan, the Imam Zamim can be clearly seen with YA ALI written on it in Arabic!! And tell me why there is an "AALAM" at Bilawal house?! Only Shia muslim use it as their Islamic Flag, with the sign of an Hand "Panjatan" above it and also an "AALAM" at her tomb in Ghari Khuda Baksh?! Ever been to Bilawal house?! And many more, btw brother correct your facts, SHIA MUSLIMS IN PAKISTAN ARE MORE THEN 30%, declared by the Interior ministry census commission and the Supreme court Bar council which means more then 68 million Shia Muslims in Pakistan!! Don't believe on the 2 decades old data provided by CIA, of Shia being 20% in Pakistan!! Secondly about her family, tell me what was then name of her Brothers and Father?! Definitely Murtaza, Shahnawaz and Zulfiqar!! Do you know what these names stand for?! No i guess you don't..i'll tell you, well Murtaza is another name given to Hazrat Ali (A.S) just Mustafa is a name given to Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)! Secondly Zulfiqar!! Well the actual name was Zulfiqar-e-Ali Bhutto, which was termed Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto by everyone! Zulfiqar-e-Ali mean (Sword of Ali), Zulfiqar was the name of Hazrat Ali (A.S)'s sword (A Twin Blade Sword) gifted by ALLAH in the Battle of Badr! Now tell me would any Sunni have such a name, well a Sunni can have a name Zulfiqar but not Murtaza!! Because 99% of Shia Muslims use this name Murtaza as it is mostly used in the Shia Sect....could be very rare and unique if a Sunni has it! Paki90 (talk) 21:05, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It Doesn't matter if she was Sunni or Shia, she was Muslim. Pakistan is a majority Muslim country not a majority Sunni country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.83.217.107 (talk) 23:01, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is ridiculous. Vali Nasr et al refer to Bhutto as Shia but provide no evidence. Neither is there any evidence that she was Sunni. At the end of the the argument, there is no evidence either way unless we are going to conclude that the more people repeat something, the truer it becomes. If that's the case, Wikipedia just lost all credibility. More to the point, though, it does a disservice to this article to keep such a contest bit of information in the article. What purpose does it possibly serve? Until there is some actual documentation of her affiliation with one sect or another, it should not be included. Period. Bill Thrace (talk) 19:22, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What sort of sick minds work on Wikipedia? User:Bill Thrace i would like to remind you please stop confusing people by removing facts that are public and based on just claims. Benazir was Shia every one knows that, by the way no one cares even if he is a Shia neither do i, the thing is Wikipedia is all about mentioning facts and that is what i am trying to do here. Vali Nasr is highly specialized academic scholar for Middle East, Islam and politics his book should be considered reliable these biases made by you are also not making any sense. Answer me are you even a Pakistani? If you are not, you are certainly not act wisely. And if you are, you are unaware of these facts or your trying to be an ignorant. If any body here lives in Karachi i would recommend them to pay a visit to Clifton block 2 where "Bilawal House" the residence of former Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazir and current private residence of President Zardari is located, there you'll be able to spot a large Black Flag called "Alam" flying over the Bilawal House. Its a Symbol of Shia Islam, and that evidence is as public as it could be. By the way some gentleman above acted as a racist oxymoron and mentioned Shia to be just a tiny part of Pakistani population, i may remind him Shia Muslims make up 35% of the total Muslim Population of Pakistan. And perhaps this link will further prove this case:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkxhasP3pCU&feature=related , Benazir and Zardari pay visit to the one of the holiest sites for Shia Islam in Karbala and Najaf after the Holy Kabbah and Grand Mosque of Nawabi.Paki90 (talk) 02:26, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with Paki90, it is all about mentioning true facts. And he is quite right on Benazir and Zardari being Shias. Before even i use to suspect that but now after alot of research and by the passage of time i have finally realized it, even Jinnah was a Shia. Anyways, this is becoming very ridiculous. Asking someone to prove that the Bhuttos are Shi'a Muslims is like asking to prove that Lenin was a communist, grow up guys! I would also like to mention that when she arrived at Karachi Airport as it is shown in this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBTZ13--UoY&feature=related, you can clearly notice few bands on her right arm specially that Green one, all these bands all called "Imam Zamins". Imam Zamin is in essence a type of nithr by the Shia Muslims. A nithr is a promise to Allah that a person will perform some type of religious act if certain hajaat, or needs they have, are met. In the case of Imam Zamin, Muslims make a promise to Allah that if they arrive to their destination safely with the blessing of the holy Imam, they would then give away the coin they carried on their journey and give as charity. This is the link further simplifying this claim to be legitimate and true;http://www.anthro.uci.edu/html/Programs/Anthro_Money/ImamZamin.htm. I hope this debate is over, she was a Shia.

Mohsin Ahmed (talk) 04:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Z.A.Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto were Sunni muslims. And Ms. Nusrat Bhutto was Shia muslim. - Said Dr. Ghulam Hussain former Secretary-General Pakistan People's Party and Federal Minister of Mr. Z.A Bhutto's Cabinet. 1977. As far as he knows they are Sunni muslims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.139.142 (talk) 17:38, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Archiving

I think this page is getting too much lengthy and it should be archived. Any objections? --SMS ^Talk 15:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Pastordavid (talk) 20:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Allegations of Giving Nuclear Secrets to North Korea

Shyam Bhatia, an Indian journalist of notable credibility, has reported that Bhutto gave DPRK information on developing nuclear weapons for exchange of ballistic missile development to counter the imbalance Pakistan had with India. Several credible sources have picked up on this. Bhatia alleges that she asked that it not be known until after her death that she made the deal due to the controversy over it. ^[1]

I suggest we tread lightly with this. Please be extra careful to use only sourced info. Arnabdas (talk) 20:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pakistan is a Sunni state

I think the Shia/Sunni stuff should not be added because there is no way of verifying which sect of religion this woman practiced. Pakistan is a 75% (majority) Sunni state and if she was Shia the nation would make a big deal about all this. Similarly, if a Sunni is a Prime Minister or President of Iran (Shia state) then it would be much talked about. It's very easy to know if someone is Shia or Sunni, especially politicians, the Shias attend the Day of Ashura every year and they only go to their Shia mosques. My other part of the argument is on the reliability of the sources that are provided for the Shia/Sunni claims. We should not rely on sources that are POVs of writers because they make errors. For example, BBC News mistakenly stated that Suhaila Seddiqi is an ethnic Tajik but the fact is that she is not a Tajik and instead she is an ethnic Pashtun [4], [5], [6] which is a different ethnic background.--Seminoletree (talk) 16:32, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bhutto is a Shi'a Muslim according to Vali Nasr, The Times and The Huffington Post. She is Sunni according to absolutely no one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.216.123.141 (talk) 16:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These weak sources, without a doubt, qualify as unreliable sources for Wikipedia. They are heavily biased, controversial, Shia POVs and etc... Vali Nasr is a Shia nationalist...and he's clearly showing it. The other sources are also Shia nationalist writers, one source mentions that he/she saw or talked with an Iraqi Sunni who converted to Christianity. That shows how he/she feels about Sunnis. Also, books don't mean anything unless they can verify to readers their claims and that is to show us references to where that info was gathered from. Why is there no reliable source like BBC, Times, CNN, FOX, CBS, PBS, etc. saying her being Shia? It's ridiculous that you are here trying to push your Shia POVs based on such weak links that you provided (like an Iranian Shia book writer). There is nothing special about being a book writer in this age of time, anyone of us can do it.--Seminoletree (talk) 19:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Huffington Post article is written by Pervez Sharma! How is that a Shia source?! I'm sick and tired of Pakistani articles on Wikipedia being bullied by Sunni POVs. Some of whom write about Shias as if Shias were aliens! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.57.220.124 (talk) 20:19, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Parvez Sharma is a blogger, and his article is on a blog site How do you trust such weak information? --119.30.79.189 (talk) 23:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alternate Life Style

There has been news and a book about secret sex life of Benazir Bhutto. The book is titled, "Indecent Correspondence: Secret Sex Life of Benazir Bhutto". Benazir is described as having a libertine sex life.<www.jagopunjabjagoindia.com</ref> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.65.122.44 (talk) 10:18, 14 December 2014 (UTC) I would be adding a new section about Benazir Bhutto's alternate life style. Sources would include her closest and most private friends, Daphne Barak and Shiri Zinn. I am posting the related sources below. http://www.fem.com/private/private-artikel/artikel/shiri-zinn-knows-good-sex/ http://daphnebarak.webs.com/index.htm In case anyone has any objection to my addition please let me know. I shall only post afterwards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yakub Chohan (talk • contribs) 21:31, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think that that is relevant to the article. But, you could include those links in the external links section. And also Wikipedia prefers sources in English. --Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 23:50, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would respectfully disagree. Yes, sources in english are preferable but still other reliable sources can't be discounted. If the author of the source provides an english translation, then I beleive that could be used in the article.

A UN awarded website by ICFJ Journalists has interesting new information about Benazir Bhutto. (Blacklisted link removed) Perhaps this could be included in the main article. Any suggestions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.51.51.149 (talk) 11:11, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have already added some information from the same sources above. Charlie wilson (talk) 20:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Benazir Bhutto's video in last moments

I have found videos of Mohterma Shaheed Benazir Bhutto which are just before her death and just after her death but no one is allowing me here to post her video. can any one tell me what is the fault —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.163.15 (talk) 12:04, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Need to balance the article.

After reading through the article, I observed that the article has been slanted. The allegations of corruption against Ms Bhutto were given with intricate details where as her opposition to the martial law of General Zia was summed up in a four line paragraph. Thus I have shifted the detailed section regrading corruption charges against her to a separate article and a brief summary along with a link to the main article has been retained.

I have also added a section about her most important years in political life after the execution of her father, when she struggled for democracy in Pakistan and won over the hearts of Pakistani masses. However, the section is inadequate and needs further expansion.

I also noticed that the section about her tenure as a Prime minister needs expansion as there is virtually no detail about her government functioning.

Also I deleted the section about Alternative Life styles about Ms Bhutto. Alternative lifestyle is something that is practiced by an individual or section of society, that is not a norm or mainstream. An affair of past, whether true or false, unless certified by either party would be yellow journalism and this is an encyclopedia not a tabloid. What dildo or condom or television or perfume one uses is a personal preference not worth mentioning. Indeed her opinions about pre-marital sex are worthy, however, there is no incident where she has advocated for the cause. A college debate is not a confession of personal belief or opinion. An example of a relevant opinion would be her advocacy at many forum for abolishment of capital punishment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalamkaar (talk • contribs) 19:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Madonna

Should there be mention that Benazir was one of the people shown in Madonna's Sticky & Sweet Tour segue backdrop music video "Get Stupid" she was shown towards the end of the Video along with Obama and Al Gore and along with others. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV8lnVqWKqg I think this is kinda major so should this be mentioned? Or maybe other popular culture refrences as well? Thanks! xx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chriskardashian (talk • contribs) 06:48, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bhutto was the first woman elected to lead a Muslim state

This is a problematic statement, given that - per terminology used among the English-speaking political scientists - the prime minister's function is not as head of (or leader of) the state, but rather as head of (or leader of) the government. The president in a parliamentary-modelled republic, and the monarch in a constitutional monarchy leads a state proper.24.201.75.4 (talk) 18:22, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, you are right. but there are (unfortunately) plenty of misinformed journalists who dont know the intricacies of political science and therefore there are sourced statements saying this.Lihaas (talk) 07:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

what about tansu ciller? ex-prime minister of turkey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.101.152.187 (talk) 08:01, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assassination sections

This is way too long considering it has its own spinoff page. a brief 1-2 paragraph synopsis of the assassination and the group who reacted, as well as the initiation of an enquiry saying the reprot was released today should do it.Lihaas (talk) 07:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Benazir Monument under Legacy

The Pakistan government has approved the Benazir Monument Complex plan that will be constructed through taxpayers’ money at a vast piece of land near Shakarparian. Monument will be at a reported cost of USD $11 million. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aperson7777777 (talk • contribs) 09:53, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The man who murdered Osama Bin Laden"

This is prominently mentioned in the beginning of the article but obviously a mistake as she wanted to say 'Daniel Pearl' as this is who Omar Saeed Sheikh is believed to have murdered. She was clarifying who Omar Saeed Sheikh was. It wouldn't make sense to say something this shocking in such a sentence and she never again said or clarified that OBM was dead. Quite the contrary. And Frost didn't even seem to have heard what she literally said. So why does this article act like she believed OBL was killed? --95.96.30.170 (talk) 22:57, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Text had been added here. Reliable commentary suggests she mis-spoke, and the location in the article made it appear related to another event, which cannot be sourced to youtube. Gimmetoo (talk) 23:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

--so Now people are changing history and suggesting that what the person clearly said without any hesitation at all, no sign of mistake in what she said, we're supposed to believe she meant to say someone else. This is not credible. A link to an un-edited version would certainly show the truth or falseness of whether she answered the question clearly or was making a mistake. ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:80DD:D400:1825:48AC:E6E8:5796 (talk) 17:05, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Benazir Bhutto and the hijabskirt project"

I will be adding information from a UN awarded project (Blacklisted link removed) about Benazir Bhutto once I get due permission from the authors. Charlie wilson (talk) 22:52, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will be removing information from this that is not verifiable. Those photos are clearly not of Benazir Bhutto and are well known to be fakes circulated online years ago. Photoshopping a corny "used with permission" and fake bar code do not constitute authentication. If you can provide the name of the individual who took the photos, we'll talk. Bill Thrace (talk) 20:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

User:Charlie wilson blocked, disruptive vandal. NawlinWiki (talk) 20:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Benazir Bhutto-crop.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Paper for Bhutto

Has anyone written a paper on Benazir Bhutto if so can you please post thank you need help! 11-14-2011

Incorrect Book Link

The link for the book "Daughter of the East" points to Daughter of the East, an unrelated movie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.143.204.206 (talk) 15:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure --Katarighe (talk) 23:51, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The IP is right. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Religion removed entirely from infobox

Therequiembellishere removed her religion entirely from the infobox. Notwithstanding the argument above over whether she was Shia or Sunni, it should be clear (and there is a source) that she was Muslim, so I've reverted. Superm401 - Talk 05:54, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

removed this statement as source does not state this .....

"In 2012, Indian media reports claimed that Benazir Bhutto took tough rhetoric on India over the Kashmir problem, and threatened India with an atomic attack; her foreign minister Lieutenant-General Yaqub Ali Khan convened the message to higher authorities of India."^[2]

^ http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2008_6_2.html#C3F9574A
^ Shishir Gupta (New Delhi, August 22, 2012). "Revealed: Pak, US blackmailed India with nukes". Hindustan Times. Retrieved 26 August 2012. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

- ok, the HEADLINE makes that statement, but the content of the news story does not back this up. Stating that a country will DEFEND itself and saying it is going to attack are two very different things, and putting a spin on this is POV. Also, the USA sent nuclear-powered carrier battle groups in these waters all the time to monitor U.S. interests in the area vis-a-vis the Soviet Union and in an interest for general stability. Whatever one thinks of such a policy, putting a spin that this in some way threatened India with nuclear-weapons pressure is a stretch. This news article seems somewhat op-ed'ish - is there another source which is (better written, for one thing) that can stand scrutiny on this matter?HammerFilmFan (talk) 23:20, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Novice User of Wiki "edit" - minor edit: correction of date

I don't know how to use the edit features in Wiki. My apologies if this is the wrong place to point out this very minor mistake. See last sentence under heading "Assassination". Note that April 26, 2013 was a Friday and NOT a Thursday as stated in the article. PB — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.244.98 (talk) 23:37, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, my mistake I just corrected. BTW, to edit the article is even easier than writing these few notes here.Just click on [edit] on top right of each paragraph, change what you need to change and save. LNCSRG (talk) 10:19, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links

I have removed all the media and article links from the external links section in an attempt to clean it up. There is plenty of information with references about the subjects they covered in the article already and there is also a fairly large further reading section. If the links removed contain any important information not already in the article then it should be included in the main text and the link used as a reference. Sarahj2107 (talk) 09:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bin Laden Murdered by Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh?

Are we still doing conspiracy theories? The Preparation for 2008 elections section seems to still say that Bhutto made the claim that bin Laden was murdered by Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, though I think it's quite clear that she just misspoke. Is there a need for this paragraph at all, or is there a way we can indicate that it was just a slip of the tongue? AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 02:53, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

tags deleted

My "POV" and "expert needed" tags were deleted, with the summary "No discussion of the problems". After spot reading some of the article (which is huge) I'm not going to contest the deletion but do think that in parts there needs to be correction of grammar, which in some places is bad enough to make the content unclear. Example:
"Criticism against Benazir Bhutto came from the powerful political spectrum of the Punjab Province and the Kashmir Province who opposed Benazir Bhutto, particularly the nationalisation issue that led the lost of Punjab's privatised industries under the hands of her government." --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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mujadehin as Frankenstein

This article had a direct quote of Bhutto, and had her telling George Bush this in 2000 ie before 9/11. I was not able to find a source for the words in the direct quote, although she did in fact visit the US at that time, as well as several times after wards. She also has made this comparison several times in several ways. I found similar statements in the prepared text for a speech she gave and in one of her books, but not using the exact wording that was in quotes in the article. Therefore I removed the quotes from the statement, making it an indirect quote. Since I could not verify when she used that wording, I removed the reference to a visit in the 1996 as extraneous to the main point, that she had this opinion and stated it. It may be possible to get this going by further digging. Just an FYI in case someone wants to look into this. Elinruby (talk) 11:14, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

copy/pasting

Some sections of the article appear to be straight out of the biography page at Bhutto Legacy Foundation. I am particularly noticing this in the paragraphs about her education but I am deep in the middle of something right now. Note to self/whoever to check, rewrite, delete as necessary Elinruby (talk) 22:15, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Balance of the article

I think the article is getting imbalanced. Some editor are throwing their POV and some editor are also using Bhatia's book as an unvarnished truth. They are simply not being neutreal. Like a or few editor had mentioned Benazir marriage Zardari thrice time in the article and another new editor has made Ms Bhutto divorced from her husband at infobox information!!! (both has been corrected by me). I want to be editors must be clear at some point and that are:-

We all need be very neutreal during editing an article.
We have to focus on verified source like :- International and national newspaper rather than gossip column.
Syaam Bhatia's book about Benazir Bhutto was very much controversial about some point. What has not accepted by historian, analysist and politian. So we can not take it as unvarnished truth.

And finaly I urged expert of this article to keep an eye on this article in order to make it a balanced article.Ominictionary (talk)

Bhatia is one of Bhutto's foremost biographers. He knew her personally over a long period of time. That is not to say that everything that he says is automatically correct, but it is to say that his biography should be regarded as a WP:Reliable Source. I do not think it appropriate of you to remove information on Bhutto's personality and personal life if it appropriately sourced to Bhatia unless you can produce another Reliable Source which specifically disputes the accuracy of Bhatia's claims on these issues. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view means that we have to relay, in a neutral manner, what the Reliable Sources say; it does not mean that we must avoid the Reliable Sources if certain individuals dislike what their authors' have to say (I can imagine that some of Bhutto's supporters may not like some of the information that Bhatia reveals). If you take a look at FA-rated political biography articles like Nelson Mandela and Vladimir Lenin, you will see that they include some basic information on their subject's personalities; Bhutto should not be treated any differently. Describing Bhutto's personal traits and habits does not degenerate the article to the level of "gossip column"; it ensures that a well-rounded portrait of her is presented to the reader.

With regard to Bhutto's marriage to Zardari, I would agree with you that most of this information should go in the "Personal life" section. However, I also think that a brief mention of it is warranted in the "Release and self-imposed exile" section, because chronologically that is when the marriage took place and when she then had her first child. I initially included a brief mention of the marriage in the "University studies" section but I fully agree with you that that was not an appropriate place, so am perfectly content with your removal of the information from that section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:54, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Bhutto is not the first woman to rule/govern a Muslim majority country

Arwa al-Sulayhi is an example of a female ruler of a muslim majority country. And she lived 1000 years ago. You can refer to the wiki page of Arwa al-Sulayhi for verification. There are also other figures older than Bhutto. CaliphoShah (talk) 15:30, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@ Hello, CaliphoShah. I told you in your talk page that ruling and governing is 2 different thing. The word ruling has been used for monarchy and govern has used for goverment. The person you are talking about she used to rule not govern. I know that there was many muslim female leader before Ms Bhutto. But they used to rule not govern. You should check this refernce.

Ominictionary (talk) 20:54, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

When dealing with periods in more distant centuries, particularly absolute monarchies, the boundary between ruling and governing probably gets a little fuzzy. Most of the sources I have seen refer to Bhutto as the first female Prime Minister of a Muslim majority country, so perhaps that is the wording that she should go with? Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:21, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes your proposal is reasonable. I will remove the claim that Bhutto was the first female to govern a nation but keep the claim she is the first female prime minister of a Muslim majority country. CaliphoShah (talk) 23:04, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Every country does not hold PM as Head of State. Your argument is inconvencing Caliphoshah. Why don't you mention our name during discussion, plz mention someone who is related to the discussion like me or Midnightblueowl. How do we find out that you are replying us in talk page of you don't mention us. Plz don't change the information without an agreement in talk page. Unless it will create an edit conflict. Ominictionary (talk) 10:05, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The claim isn't about every country having a PM has head of state. But plenty of countries do. Perhaps the mention that she is the first democratically elected leader should be added instead. Your position is very uncompromising and you're making this weird distinction between the words ruling and governing. Citation Quora isn't helping your case.CaliphoShah (talk) 17:55, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How many time I need to ask you to mention name, when replying CaliphoShah. However your this arguement sounds convincing. But let me be clear that there is difference between the use of this two word. You can notice in world news that when they refer North Korea, they don't say goverment, they say regime or ruling. When they talk about America, they mention it as Goverment and governing. Your arguement is literally OK but not figuratively. Ominictionary (talk) 06:24, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My reply is right below the comments to whom I reply to. There is no need to mention name. Whether there is a difference in those word used in news article is not relevant because this is a historical article now. Bhutto died over 20 years ago so her career is considered history. And in history, "rule" and "govern" are interchangeable. It is good that some sort of consensus has been achieved.CaliphoShah (talk) 18:43, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ten years ago, not twenty! But I do agree that the distinction between "rule" and "govern" is not necessarily a useful one in most contexts (the possible exception being in constitutional monarchies). Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:11, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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“Secularist?”

The article described her policies as secularist yet daughter of destiny, her autobiography, repeatedly mentions Islam(albeit a liberal or progressive interpretation thereof) as one of her influences, was the mention of Islam in the current Pakistani constitution added later?I watched a video with Benzar Bhutto and she says Osama Bin Laden was killed 10 years ago by his own people and everyone knows about it in their countrys.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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University marriage proposals

I have some doubts whether marriage proposals that were "rebuffed" have a place in the article in the first place, but I'm more concerned that our article appears to disagree with what Dawn has to say, quoting the author of the book we cite. According to Dawn, there were "interested paramour[s]" whom Bhutto rejected; our article claims Bhutto proposed marriage and was rebuffed. Can someone check the book by Bhatia? Huon (talk) 23:36, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Second term as Prime Minister (1993–96)

Why are there two foreign policy and domestic policy sections for 1993–96? Braganza (talk)

Requesting edit examination and opinion

Greetings,

Please do visit Talk:Cynthia D. Ritchie#Slander of Benazir Bhutto to examine discussed edits, if you find topic interested requesting your opinion, there.

For neutrality purpose opinion request is being made to users who significantly edited different sides of Pakistani political spectrum articles.

Thanks and regards

Bookku (talk) 12:15, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RfC for Lead

Should it be mentioned in the lead the Bhutto was not the first female leader of Pakistan as it is assumed? The first female leader of Pakistan was Queen Elizabeth II who was the head of state of Pakistan from 1952 to 1956. See preview here. Peter Ormond 💬 15:10, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bhutto was the first head of government of Pakistan. Where's Elizabeth II was the first head of state of Pakistan. GoodDay (talk) 16:29, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're correct. And this I think should be mentioned in the lead. See List of the first women heads of government and state in Muslim-majority countries. Peter Ormond 💬 16:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not, the comparison is somewhat tortured, between a powerful, elected head of government, and a largely symbolic, hereditary, transitional, head of state inherited from pre-independence. Is the comparison a frequently noted one? I think not and therefore it's a form of SYNTH to draw a conclusion by merging elements from two true statements. I would certainly think it not lead-worthy, though it could go in the article body. Pincrete (talk) 12:51, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No. As GoodDay and Pincrete have already pointed out, talking of "leader" in quite a vague way conflates the head of government with the head of state, which I don't think helps the reader. That Elizabeth II was Pakistan's head of state for a few years is largely trivia; as Pincrete noted, it is not a fact widely reported in discussions of Bhutto, as for instance one can see at the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry or this BBC obituary. If properly sourced then it could go in the article main body, but I don't see it as being lead worthy. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:30, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not really - its an academic distinction. She is widely considered the country's first female leader, and I can't see a single reliable source that hedges its bets in a way that suggests Wikipedia should be doing the same. St★lwart¹¹¹ 03:41, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No - The confusion can easily be avoided by making the writing more specific, such as "first head of government", rather than using the generic term "leader". The mention of Queen Elisabeth II is unnecessary. PraiseVivec (talk) 16:24, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's trivia, since Elizabeth II's role was a formality; Bhutto's significance is widely-recognized in the sources and few of them mention Elizabeth II in relation to her. We should be careful with our wording to avoid saying something incorrect, of course, but I don't see the point of mentioning Elizabeth II in the lead or highlighting the distinction you're making here - it's not really something important to Bhutto's biography. --Aquillion (talk) 03:58, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No as pointed out by user Pincrete. BristolTreeHouse (talk) 07:07, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No: it's a good trivia trick question but we should just write something specific and factual, that she was the first head of government or similar. You need lots of RSes mentioning the fact for it to be due weight, which no-one seems to have found. — Bilorv (talk) 15:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Flagging up unsubstantiated allegations

The page on Benazir Bhutto include several statements which may well be true, but aren't backed up by citations or references. For example, the important allegation is made that "Intelligence services rigged that year's election to ensure a victory for the conservative Islamic Democratic Alliance (IJI), at which Bhutto became Leader of the Opposition." I think this rigging is widely accepted, but it surely needs substantiation by references. Can anyone help? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Corsaire5555 (talk • contribs) 11:50, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:LEADCITE. Statements in the lead do not need to carry citations if the information itself is properly cited in the main body of the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:38, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2008_6_2.html#C3F9574A

[Hindustan_Times-2] Shishir Gupta (New Delhi, August 22, 2012). "Revealed: Pak, US blackmailed India with nukes". Hindustan Times. Retrieved 26 August 2012. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

[1]

[2]