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Archive 1

Untitled

Edit of new article - redundant stuff in World Church of the Creator entry taken out, personal stuff on Ben Klassen from that entry put here. David Gerard 17:21, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

denial

I do not see anything in this article that indicates the category 'Holocaust denial' or 'Holocaust denier' is appropriate. Can someone help here? Hmains 00:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

general

I don't know the details of Klassen's life, but a search of Google Books ("Klassen Church of the Creator" w/o the quotes) brings up plenty. I'm not sure how to best add citations to this page, but a short list of the hits returned by that search (some that I consider trustworthy on the subject) include:

Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity - Page 346 by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke

Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism - Page 132 by Mattias Gardell

Right-wing Populism in America: Too Close for Comfort - Page 447 by Chip Berlet, Matthew N. Lyons —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clocke (talk • contribs) 22:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Can anyone answer this?

Resolved

Was Klassen a fruitarian at any point? Talk:Fruitarianism#Ben_Klassen.3F

Mdbrownmsw 20:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Klassen did believe in Salubrious Living. He ate raw fruits, vegies, nuts and grains only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.155.117.196 (talk) 05:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

No, not correct

If you actually read his books, where he tells about everyday life as the leader of this COTC organisation, you will quickly find that he talks about eating non-vegetarian meals. For an example on page 164 in the book "Trials, Tribulations and Triumphs"; "I had a good rib-eye steak at the Thunderbird..." The fact is that Ben Klassen viewed the fruitarian diet as an ideal - but not a must. He himself did NOT practice it. --Nillan2009 (talk) 08:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

February 7 1918

google "ben klassen february 7 1918" and you will get results saying this is his birthdate, not the 20th. i am new to wikipedia and don't understand how to make references so i just edited it. it's really not a big deal, i'm no fan of ben klassen, but i saw something on T.V. recently about him where it said he was born on the 7th so i figured i'd change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gummy Dummy (talk • contribs) 07:31, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

A few errors...

Klassen invented the Electric can opener, which isn't mentioned!

Klassen is also claimed to have been a "White Nationalist", when in fact he was a White Racial Loyalist, the proper term. He was very much against any form of White Nationalism! Most White racialists are anti nationalist, because race comes above all else!! Only in america are there a large number of people who CLAIM to be racist Whites while claiming also to believe in nationalism.

There is also no mention of his family, nor of his early work in politics... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.155.117.161 (talk) 17:47, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Just a note for interested parties: can opener mentions three different men responsible; none of them are Klassen. Eaglizard (talk) 20:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Ben Klassen invented and patented his electric can opener. It was patented on 25th of November 1958. It can be viewed here http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2861336.html . There is also an PDF file with copy of original patent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.63.218 (talk) 22:03, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

How come nowhere on this page is this man described as racist, which he CLEARLY is? Why would wikipedia also allow the comments of ignorant white supremacists who want to "correct" the information? Yet another shining example of not only the ridiculous racism in America and the world, but the inherently, structurally racist media that supports these ideas. How did Klassen arrive to his amazing stupidity? Racist media. Thanks Wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.225.227.197 (talk) 01:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Klassen didn't invent the first electric can opener. He invented an improved electric can opener, the Canolectric, that required less effort from the user. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.65.13.252 (talk) 18:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Bibliography

I removed the table and reorganized it using the same links, dates, and comments into a bibliographical list of Klassen's works. --scochran4 (talk) 00:09, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

COTC as opposed to WCOTC

Klassen never founded the "World" Church of the Creator, he founded the Church of the Creator in 1973, whereas the WCOTC was founded by Matthew F. Hale in the mid-1990's so that is misleading. The WCOTC and the COTC are not the same organization, and this is further evidenced by the fact that prior use was not involved in regard's to the trademark suit with the WCOTC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.250.42.90 (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Good catch. I've changed the lead to reflect that. Glaucus (talk) 18:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, as the Creativity religion article is more accurate than both the TCM and the CA articles combined. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.250.42.90 (talk) 18:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Authoritarianism isn't a proper definition

I don't believe that authoritarianism is the correct structure of the World Church of the Creator as power isn't concentrated within the hands of one leader, and each primary group elects it's own minister to carry out the main functions of the group. Furthermore, Klassen states that every member of his church should be ordained a minister or reverend.

I believe that if anything, the correct definition would actually be totalitarianism, however the church structure itself is more hierarchical as expressed in the book Nature's Eternal Religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.250.42.90 (talk) 18:19, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Klassen clearly describes the church as authoritarian in the source. What you are arguing above is OR. Glaucus (talk) 18:30, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

The definition of authoritarian doesn't fit the definition of the structure as laid out in the "holy books" of Creativity. It lays out a hierarchical structure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.250.42.90 (talk) 18:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

That is a textbook example of Original Research. That is not acceptable in wikipedia. Glaucus (talk) 18:41, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Ben Klassen ethnically White?

First let's examine the definition of "ethnicity" Wikipedia defines ethnicity as "a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy" I believe Klassen fit into the white ethnic group. And if not white, what then? What ethnicity was he? Obviously not Black, Indian, Oriental, Jewish, etc. By process of elimination we find that he's white. Does that belong on the article page? --SCochran4 (talk) 04:39, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

No one is disputing that he was white. But "white" is not an ethnicity. Neither is "Black" or "Asian" (rugs are "Oriental"). "Indian" and "Jewish" would be ethnicities. Glaucus (talk) 05:37, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Interestingly, the "Asian" vs. "Oriental" issue seems to be one of British vs American vernacular. Glaucus (talk) 05:41, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
White is a racial not an ethnic grouping. The main difference between ethnicity and race is that race is made up of categories into which persons are put by others on the basis of their physical characteristics - ethnicity is group into which one puts oneself because one identifies with its characteristics which are usually cultural rather than physical. In some countries there may be a white ethnic group if that group also shares cultural background, language and history. That is neither the case in the ukraine or in the US where white is a racial group encompassing people who look white according to the prevailing idea of whiteness (at one point for example people who looked italian weren't considered white) regardless of their ethnic background.·Maunus·ƛ· 07:33, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Removal

I removed the text for several reasons. One because it is not common for an epitaph to be written into an article, especially one of low importance. Two, because it adds nothing of merit to the article. Three, because the text is already present in the picture anyway. I'll be removing it agian now. Beach drifter (talk) 18:58, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

That makes sense. In the interest of conciseness I agree with your edit. --SCochran4 (talk) 19:02, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
That seems like a good edit. For future note, this article seems to be part of a medium-intensity edit-war between Creativity factions, so it's a good idea to be clear about why you're doing what you do. I'm having enough trouble trying to keep straight which editor is part of which faction, and which ones have been blocked! Glaucus (talk) 19:27, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Blank of "Early Life" by User:HACovington

I'm going to assume good faith concerning this edit, although I have reverted it until consensus is reached. Is there any reason the information in that section should be deleted (perhaps it's unsourced, unverifiable, etc.)? --SCochran4 (talk) 21:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I've not looked at the pdf supposedly by Klassen which may source some of it, but in any case we should have a third party source. This all seems pretty trivial without a third party source discussing its relevance, and I don't see it as the sort of thing for an encyclopedia. Dougweller (talk) 22:01, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
The pdf is a digital version of Klassen's autobiography. I contributed significantly to that section and that book is where I got most of the information. Perhaps it would be better to cite the book itself rather than the pdf format of the book, but I don't have a print copy so I can't find page numbers, etc. --SCochran4 (talk) 22:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia can't assert anything from an autobiography as fact, it has to be attributed to the author/subject. And as I said, why is it all included anyway? Dougweller (talk) 08:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

White supremacy v. White separatist

I've noticed the use of the term white supremacist as opposed to the term white separatist. The church says it's not supremacist because it doesn't want to rule other races- rather it wishes to separate from other races. However, popular media says the church is white supremacist, in order to define it with groups of the same type. Should this article reflect what the church and it's books state, or what the media describes it as? --SCochran4 (talk) 23:39, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles should verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view, including all significant POVs with weight according to their prominence. So we should include both the church's view of itself and the views of outsiders.
From what I can tell, white supremacy and white separatism are terms that apply to the same people and groups. "Separatism" is the term preferred by the subjects themselves and "supremacy" is the term preferred by outsiders. While subjects insist there is a difference between the terms, in actual usage there is little apparent difference. This article is currently categorized under "Category:White separatism". There's a preference for categorizing people using self-identified terms, so that's fine as it is.   Will Beback  talk  00:16, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
White supremacy doesn't solely refer to the belief that "White's" should rule other "races", but simply to the belief that "White's" are superior or dominant. This is clearly WP:OR, but listening to some of Klassen's interviews make it clear that he (and presumably his church) believe the latter. The description of the symbols also state a similar belief. Glaucus (talk) 03:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe the correct statement to make would be that the church is White Separatist but believe in White Superiority as well. There is an ideological difference between those and mere "White Supremacists." 98.250.42.90 (talk) 18:14, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

While this may be true, we need to cite sources for verifiability and I left the edit because I think it's a good faith edit. Please see WP:INDENT to read about keeping the threads on talk pages organized by indenting your comments. Thanks. --SCochran4 (talk) 21:24, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Why all the prattle?

Why does the first part of this article read like a holiday diary? It's piss poor and useless information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.94.48 (talk) 08:58, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

How to include info from all infoboxes

Edward321, I'm assuming you reverted the article because the now current infobox contained more information. How can we include all of the information from both infoboxes while preferably using the "religious leader" infobox (because that's what Klassen is most notable as being)? Thanks for your contributions. :) --Scochran4 (talk) 04:22, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Co-Authorship

Salubrious Living is listed as having a co-author, but the link doesn't show one. Any reason for this? Ethan Mitchell (talk) 19:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Mennonite ancestry

The article mentions that the family meets with "other Mennonites" without stating first that the family was Mennonite. A citation is needed. --Scochran4 (talk) 05:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Ben Klassen, a Florida Legistlator

Was Ben Klassen a Florida politician?Carmelmount (talk) 09:54, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Under the references, number 7 doesn't work. I'm not sure about editing, but it seems as though it links through an archive.org website which uses an outdated link. Clicking on the reference itself won't work, and I'm not sure how to adjust where it provides the url for the hyperlink. The appropriate url that should be displayed is http://creativityalliance.com/eBook-BenKlassen-TrialsTribulations&Triumphs.pdf Within the article, this 7 should be the reference in the Death subsection, rather than the listed 8. I also feel that the quoted selection of text is excessive and unnecessary. Something to the effect of "Klassen felt life was no longer worth living" with a reference to the 7 text should be fine.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.74.86.22 (talk) 00:32, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Ben Klassen's books should be uploaded to archive.org before they are linked to from the Ben Klassen article, so that wikipedia remains pure and not contaminated. The other issue is that 99% of White nationalist websites eventually get shut down, so linking from these sites, just causes dead links on wikipedia, which requires more work for editors. Carmelmount (talk) 00:21, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Legislative Career

I've seen it claimed several times that Klassen was a "one-time" Florida State Legislator, but never any details such as district or years. Does anybody know an actual source for this?

On a related note, I don't think he qualifies as "Statesman" under occupation. I don't see any reliable sources describing him as such, and his actual political career seems to be so non-notable that it's not worth detailing in the available sources. Glaucus (talk) 05:32, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I've removed that and changed the description of him at the dab page Klassen where 'white supremacist' was changed to 'politicians'. I also looked at the travelogue in the article, added here [1], which is copyvio from [2]. In any case it's inappropriate, removing it. Dougweller (talk) 06:21, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Hm, I take that back about copyvio. Looking again it's a publisher publishing our article. Still inappropriate though and not sourced. Dougweller (talk) 06:46, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I REALLY don't think the article needs to tell us where Klassen tried his first pineapple! I deleted a whole mass of this text. Anyone who wants to know about the pineapples can read this repugnant guy's books! RJM319 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjm319 (talk • contribs) 05:27, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Can anyone give me more information or sources to go to?

I have in my possession the original papers for "Shares of the Capital Stock of KLASSEN ENTERPRISES,INC." issued by the Bank of America National Trust and Savings Association (San Francisco) July 9, 1957. authorized agent J.Blumbell. It is signed at the bottom by Hennie Etta Klassen secretary and B. Klassen president. There are two original certificates # 1128 & #1129 for 100 shares each. I would love to know what this investment was for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjpita (talk • contribs) 20:33, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Library of Hate Books by Ben Klassen and Associates

I have provided links to these books, so that people can actually research and study this subject. I think that one could argue this article tends to partially POV romanticize Ben Klassen and the contextualization is lacking depth. GingerBreadHarlot (talk) 01:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

POV pushing Klassen as being Ukrainian

None of the sources used for his place of birth refer to him as being Ukrainian by ethnicity. Where on earth did the 'Ukrainian' come from. Please provide reliable sources. In fact, at the time of his birth, if there is documentation of his birth, it would have been written in Russian, not Ukrainian... so where does the 'in Ukrainian' for his name even come from. There appears to be a lot of WP:POINTy WP:OR going on here. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:47, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

The sources for his birth show that Klassen was of German descent - this is this ethnicity. They also show he was born in the Ukraine - his nationality. Edward321 (talk) 00:53, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Nope. His nationality technically was none, as he was born in an anarchist territory. Between that and emigration he was SOVIET.--Lute88 (talk) 01:53, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Ditto, Lute88. The likelihood of his being issued a Ukrainian birth certificate = zero to none. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

the RPG

seeing as racial holy war directs to Ben_Klassen#Racial_holy_war it might be good to bring up here, discussed primarily at Talk:RaHoWa regarding the RPG adaptation, is it notable enough for an article or a mention here? Ranze (talk) 10:47, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I rather doubt it.--Galassi (talk) 21:42, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Self-Described White Supremacist

Can someone please provide a source where Ben Klassen calls himself a White Supremacist?Pussypimples (talk) 02:13, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

He never identified as one.107.77.244.45 (talk) 03:50, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Maybe not in so many words specifically about himself, but it can be inferred that he would have by even a cursory reading of the White Man's Bible. Lars Frierson (talk) 17:06, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Suicide because of the decline of his religion

Can someone please provide a source that Ben Klassen committed suicide because his religion was in decline?Pussypimples (talk) 02:13, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

The two "sources" both state that the church declined after his death, not that he committed suicide because of an alleged decline prior and also, an alleged depression was speculated and not listed as fact. There are talks of undergraduate papers not being valid sources, but so too should hostile opinion "news" articles. But that's a different topic.107.77.244.45 (talk) 17:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Wikiproject:atheism category

The World Church of the Creator believes that the white race is God. So they do believe in God and therefore they cannot be tied with atheism. I believe the it should be removed.--Sardinefig (talk) 23:03, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Just found out they do indeed deny God, disregard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sardinefig (talk • contribs) 23:28, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Bibliography removal

I have removed the bibliography, as I do not believe this is consistent with Wikipedia's approach to such material. None of these books are independently noteworthy, nor are they reliable as sources for any factual claims. Being a prolific self-publisher is not encyclopedically significant, and that's all this section proves. His letters and articles are especially trivial, unless they can be supported by a reliable, independent source, in which case they could potentially be used as supplementary sources for specific points raised in the article. Mentioning their existence provides very little information beyond puffery. Additionally, these books are all self-published, and of those with ISBN numbers, none are listed by Worldcat, demonstrating just how supremely obscure they are. Grayfell (talk) 22:19, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Pontifex Maximus

An editor keeps removing the title Pontifex Maximus from the infobox.

The infobox template is specifically for a clergy position.

In fact, Richard McCarty is specified as Klassen's successor, but if this individual who keeps removing Klassen's title has his way, readers won't know what he succeeded to.

I am not a Creator, and have a negative view of Klassen, but U.S. courts have acknowledged Creativity as a religion and he should be given his religious title here.2600:1012:B1C2:C7F8:0:3B:AC88:C101 (talk) 08:57, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

He self-appointed himself "Pontifex Maximus" which we already cite on the article, this position is not a recognized title outside of the Roman Republic. See Publius Mucius Scaevola (pontifex maximus) for an example of the period when that title was used. Klassen self-appointed himself Pontifex Maximus as a joke. It is not something that was taken seriously with Klassen so we have no reason to take it seriously on Wikipedia and put it in his infobox. Historically the title had validity during the Roman era but not with this white supremacist organization in the 20th-century. You can see that the splcenter do not take the title "Pontifex Maximus" seriously in regard to the Creativity Movement [3], nor do the Anti-Defamation League [4]. Psychologist Guy (talk) 11:24, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Alright folks, are you here to build an encyclopedia or here to engage in endless edit wars? The article includes a clergy infobox. The article acknowledges that he founded a religion and courts have ruled that it is a religion. The title of his ecclesiastical office was Pontifex Maximus. If their can't be a consensus on that, what title do you suggest? 47.137.179.4 (talk) 14:59, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
A very rude editor left a message on my talk page stating that Pontifex Maximus is not used anywhere (presumably via an RS).

I suppose that you pikers who won't even collaborate with me to come up with a consensus title think that the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals is unreliable, right?

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/707/491/230178/

Come on people, work with me. 47.137.179.4 (talk) 15:19, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

It is not a recognized title outside of the Roman Republic, it has valid historical usage but not with white supremacist kook Ben Klassen. I already explained how Ben Klassen was using the title as a joke, it was not to be taken seriously and nobody takes it seriously. There is no reason to put it in the clergy infobox. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:49, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn't he also be described as a neo-Nazi?

The original Nazis believed in racial "socialism" as well, albeit the socialist part being a reference to ensuring a common wealth. That idea is analogous to the German Volksgemeinschaft idea as well. Phil of rel (talk) 22:51, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

It isn't analogous. There may however have been some in the NSDAP whose thought went already into that direction. The irony is that Klaassen's views are in many ways analogous to Judaism, which always has promoted a racial socialism. 41.48.117.147 (talk) 07:57, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
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