Talk:BM-12

N.B There are a couple decent-ish references e.g. [1] for Soviet origin of the 107mm rocket systems on Google. So, in western military literature at least, BM-12 exists.

Big question though: did the Soviets make it or just import/deploy/trade it? They may have been using only Chinese-manufactured examples in Afghanistan. There is no Russian article and nothing besides old NATO-centric/western references. I suspect a hallucination in these sources.

In particular..(!)[2] Jane's somewhat though not entirely contradicts the Achmed/Grau/Kelly etc. provenance for the BM-12, saying Type 63 was developed by the Chinese... possible from a 102mm system used in the Korean war. 102mm is 4 inch. There is another googled reference that correlates with Janes,[3] unfortunately again a bit weak, says the 102mm rocket was very similar to the 107mm.

Existence or not of the BM-12 or its provenance needs to be cleared up. I can't find much about the 102mm rocket anywhere either would like to see it.

Notes:

from Janes: "The Type 63 was developed by the No 803 and No 847 factories and type-classified in 1963"
the M-1965 Soviet 140mm MRS - this used short finless rockets similar to the BM-12/Type 63 and is probably the same as the -
140mm BM-14/RPU-14 MRS - guess this was eventually evolved into eg. the M-63 Plamen system. RPU-14 first produced in 1964 and adopted in 1967. I think this superseded the BM-12 in USSR service.
type 50-5 is a 102mm RG,
type 488 etc is the original Chinese 102mm MRS, supposedly what the 107mm was developed from. This was first encountered in the Korean War (1950) - it speaks for Chinese provenance, (Nationalist Chinese factory?) although overall date evidence still supports case for Soviet source of 107mm I think.
B-11 107mm Recoilless gun
T-107 Turkish 107mm clone
BM-11 North Korean - this is a 30 tube truck mounted MRS. Appears to use 122mm BM-21 type rockets. Confusing.

Corella (talk) 08:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up: the Russian wiki still doesn't mention the thing - looks it doesn't exist. If they were all Chinese manufacture (and mis-labeled in the west) what was the scale and timing of Chinese/Soviet arms exchanges? The Sino-Soviet split occured in 1960. Also:

BM-1 single tube version. Corella (talk) 06:28, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edited again to underline the negative on this article, added source request to main article, IMHO article is now a candidate for deletion, added appropriate headline source and delete notifier Corella (talk) 10:41, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't these rabbit hunts fun? FWIW -- Jane's Armour and Artillery 1981-82 mentions ... Type 63 MRS was developed in the late 1950s as the replacement for the 102-mm (6-round) Type 50-5 MRS which has now been withdrawn from service. . I wondered about the "BM-12" designation, but for a 102-mm weapon, it sort of fits. Page 265 of "Defense Intelligence Agency Projectile Fragment Identification Guide (foreign) edition 31 December 1973" describes a Chinese 102-mm HE rocket (or perhaps, recoilless) projectile called in the West the "102A3" with a 37 pound weight, of which 2.76 pounds was TNT. My guess: the 102-mm projectile belonged to an early-Cold War weapons system. Early Cold War weapons and military organizations are not particularly well documented, at least on the internet. Books from the 1950's and 1960's might discuss this system. W. B. Wilson (talk) 17:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, search here using "102-mm" as the search text and two hits for Chinese 102-mm rockets will be provided with some data. If what I have mentioned here is already known to you -- regrets. W. B. Wilson (talk) 17:52, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those pictures absolutely support the chinese origin/manufacture theory. I'll wait a couple weeks before merging into a note in the Type 63 article explaining the situation, including the references.Corella (talk) 06:11, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]