Talk:Australian English/Archive 5

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Programme vs Program

I dispute the phrase in this article that 'program' is more common than 'programme'. While it is officially endorsed by the gov to use 'program', this is almost universally ignored when referring to a programme of events, or an agenda. 'Program' is always used to refer to a computer program however.

Simply do a Google search for the word 'programme' on Australian sites and you'll see what I mean. I'm Australian and I was taught to use 'programme' over 'program', except when referring to a computer program.

Examples from the Australian government and Universities:

http://www.environment.gov.au/heritage/programs/rnhp/index.html
http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/WWW/ncphome.nsf/Page/National_Community_Crime_Prevention_Programme
http://www.somerset.qld.edu.au/conflib/programme/
http://www.nla.gov.au/initiatives/internat/iflapac.html
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-pubs-annlrpt-gonoanrep.htm
http://www.catl.uwa.edu.au/tlf06/programme
—Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyGod (talk • contribs) 03:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the statement that Australian English prefers 'program' over 'programme'. I initially decided to simply a sideline that said: "(although programme is also used)". But as I was adding the citations to support this, I realised that there were so many examples of 'programme' being used over 'program' that the main thrust of the statement didn't hold up. HappyGod (talk) 02:03, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Of course both forms remain, at least for the moment, technically "correct" Australian English - but "program" clearly continues to displace "programme" in several departments. Many years, I trow, since anyone would write about a "computer programme" - it just looks silly - but a radio or television program is usually just that nowadays - "programme" in this context is becoming increasingly quaint. The only situation where "programme" actually still feels more natural is, perhaps, a theatrical programme (especially an operatic one?) although even in this context most Australians (and I am elderly and in many ways a bit old-fashioned myself) would be at least quite accepting of the shorter form. On the whole I think the original text should stand, although a mild qualification may be in order. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:47, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Soundofmusicals on this matter. In my experience "program" is now the standard Australian spelling and is much more frequently used than "programme". In any case the article is referring to what the Macquarrie Dictionary says on this. Afterwriting (talk) 02:59, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Was going to chime in here about the reference in the original text to "our" standard dictionary myself. While I wouldn't always endorse everything Macquarie says the fact is that the article itself simply mentions that the dictionary prefers "program". Which is technically exactly 100% true, even if you think (legitimately) that Macquarie is incorrect on this point. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:12, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Until John Howard became Prime Minister, the preferred recent spelling in the APS was 'program', he was clear in his preference for the frenchified version, and where he was able forced its use. Tony Abbott followed suit. It is discussed here Macquarie Dictionary (3 October 2013), From the Editor: Programme or program?, looking at the Australian Government website finds both. The Australian Government Style Manual 5th edition only uses 'program'. Recent discussion in The Canberra Times on this at Malcolm Turnbull sticks with the 'programme' ... or does he?, (2 February 2016), THE PUBLIC SECTOR INFORMANT). Paul foord (talk) 03:36, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm happy to change it just to include the original text with a qualification, but there are a *lot* of examples of programme being used out there! They almost always government websites, and they're often quite schizophrenic, the 'Graduate Programs' government website also includes a section on 'ICT entry-level Programmes'. It seems to me that government program(mes) are usually be spelt with the the double m. Happy to go with the consensus. Just going over my past wiki contribs, and following through on my edit promises :-) HappyGod (talk) 05:22, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Paul's comment that a reversion to the use of programme on (current) government websites might be political seems plausible enough. That mob wants us to go back to God Save the Queen, the Union Jack, and Pounds Shillings and Pence. As for that filthy French republican system of weights and measures! I think they have fundamental objections to Magna Carta for that matter. I exaggerate but little, alas. In any case, to repeat - the statement in the article is that the Macquarie dictionary prefers "program" - not that it has absolutely replaced "programme". So there is no need or justification in changing it really. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:55, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I think programme has become increasingly rare. I am from a younger generation but I have almost never seen program used with the possible exception of a classical music or theatre program. I am sure I have looked at Australian English corpus data as well which showed program being by far the dominant spelling. Anyway just as the courts, universities and statutes federally and in all states use the macquarie dictionary as their reference on preferred spellings, so do we in this article. The only headword that exists for this word is 'program' from memory in the Macquarie with a note after the definition saying that programme is an alternative spelling

• I correct the Abbott–British "programme" to normal Australian usage every time I see it. Tony (talk) 11:59, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

"History"

I made a few changes to the History section. It placed too much importance on convict origins, vaguely suggesting that almost the entire Australian immigrant population was convicts, and making no reference to the other settlers who came along with the convicts.

I also think there is too much emphasis placed on "Cockney" origins. In terms of vocabulary there is very little in the way of genuine Cockneyisms in Australian English, in terms of pronunciation AuE uses intervocalic /d/ where Cockney uses a glottal stop, AuE does not drop initial /h/, no changing of /θ/ to /f/ (maths = mafs), or [ð] for /v/ (bother = bovver), the list goes on.

Finally, I also removed the sentence "Since that time, Australian English, has borrowed increasingly from external sources." The word "borrowed" seems to be referring only to vocabulary, rather than general influences that the previous paragraphs were attempting to cover. (Also, it ignores the fact that in terms of vocabulary AuE not only borrows from other Englishes (mostly North American), but also creates its own neologisms.) If this sentence was changed to "Since that time, Australian English, has been increasingly influenced from external sources" - well, that wouldn't be right either. Like all other Englishes, external influences are only of minor significance once the variety has a life of its own within its own culture.WikiLambo 20:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)James Lambert

I suspect that 19th century Broad AE speakers were a lot more like Cockney. Possibly the best example of this is C. J. Dennis's The Sentimental Bloke (1915), in which Dennis features phonetic representations of working class Melbourne dialogue, e.g.

This ev'nin' I was sittin' wiv Doreen,

Peaceful an' 'appy wiv the day's work done,

Watchin', be'ind the orchard's bonzer green,

The flamin' wonder of the settin' sun.

Even the /h/ in "behind" is dropped. Dennis was born and bred in Auburn, South Australia.

Grant | Talk 07:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It might be appropriate to include a reference to the increasing influence which Australian English has had on UK usage in recent years. For example, I'm hearing "no worries" more often, usually substituting for "don't mention it" or "no problem". It would be interesting to speculate about the drivers for this - Australian media influences in the UK are strong, from Rupert Murdoch through Neighbours to Kath & Kim; and Australianisms may be seen as less culturally threatening than Americanisms. I suspect there may be some academic evidence worth considering before making an edit, however. Artq55 21:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

On that note, there has been a fierce debate at Talk:Football (word) about whether or not Australian usage has influenced UK rugby league fans, in referring to the game as "football". My feeling is that at least some English RL gans have always called it "football", but it's hard to prove one way or the other. 124.169.215.177 (talk) 07:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

https://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/Survey-of-English-dialects/021M-C0908X0020XX-0300V1#_

Survey of English Dialects recording; farmworker from Little Baddow, Essex (near Chelmsford) born in 1884. To my ears (UK speaker born 1979) he sounds almost pure Australian. I wonder how he sounds to native Australian English speakers? Walshie79 (talk) 03:41, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

An interesting find. I can see why you think it sounds Australian. To me, an Aussie of mature years, it sounds like an accent used by Australian country folk much older than me when I was a kid. Some bits don't really sound Australian. Near the start, "size" to me sounds like "soyz". HiLo48 (talk) 04:06, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

*considerably* different

An editor reverted a change I made here. While Australian English has unique characteristics, it is not considerably different from New Zealand English, the lede needs qualification, hence the addition of "most". See New_Zealand_English#cite_note-8, New Zealand Lexicography. New Zealand English "is a southern hemisphere variety of English, and the variety to which it is most similar is Australian English...speakers from the Northern Hemisphere have great difficulty telling the two varieties apart." (New Zealand English By Jennifer Hay 2008, p.14) The point is not that Austrlian and New Zealand English are different, they are, but they are not *considerably* different. --Goldsztajn (talk) 09:11, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

How come Australian english doesn't use Oxford spelling?

Australia shies away from Oxford English. 124.106.140.87 (talk) 22:18, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "Oxford", but Australian English uses UK English spelling. Bizarrely the USA seems to think we don't, everyone i know sets their spellchecking software to UK English because the "Australian English" setting tends to include USA spellings that we consider errors. In cases where we don't strictly follow UK English spelling it tends to be an acceptable option. e.g. "centre" and "center" are both ok, but "colour" is the only option and "color" is never ok. I can't think of any UK English spellings that we'd consider errors, though we'd probably consider "programme" a bit pretentious. Irtapil (talk) 15:41, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Any reason for the lack of mention of "cunt"?

Considering that most of the English speaking world considers the word one of the most offensives slurs in the whole language, while in only Australia it is allegedly used on television quite commonly, this would seem to deserve a mention. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 10:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

To my knowledge as an Australian (admittedly one who doesn't watch much television), cunt is still considered to be too rude for TV (whereas fuck for example, is acceptable on evening TV). Mitch Ames (talk) 14:04, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

That seems about right. Tony (talk) 11:57, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Plus it just varies by dialect more widely (e.g., in NAm, it's an insult almost exclusively against a woman, an intensified alternative to bitch; in the UK, it's mostly applied to men, and with an implication that varies by region and context: of being a mark or a pushover, a fool, a scumbag or evildoer, etc. It can even be used in an endearing way: "You lucky cunt!"). Better covered at the article on the word.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:12, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Although it's not common I've certainly heard, on more than one occasion, one mature aged Australian male say to another "How are ya ya silly old cunt?" It's not offensive to the parties involved. HiLo48 (talk) 09:33, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

It depends on the person, it's highly variable. My mum and her brother (my uncle) both consider "cunt" extremely offensive, both were born in Australia in the late 1950s and have never lived anywhere other than Australia. My uncle called it the worst word in the world (but i consider that statement offensive, particularly given it was in a conversation about racial slurs). My friends and i are not very offended by it (born in the 1980s, most have degrees and a lot have doctorates) but we know others find it offensive, most of my friends would get angry at me if i said it in front of children in public or in front of their extended families, but only mildly annoyed, not horrified like my uncle. And yeah, it tends to be applied to men, or to refer to part of a woman, i think everyone i know would be either offended or just baffled if you used the term to refer to a whole woman. It can be offensive or friendly, but even when it's friendly it tends to be in that "friendly mockery" way. Kind of "i know you well enough that i can call you an obscenity without you being offended", or something like that. Irtapil (talk) 15:56, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Just some observations

"Australia adopted decimal currency in 1966 and the metric system in the 1970s. Australians have measured temperatures in degrees Celsius since 1972, road signs were metricated in 1974, and goods of all kinds have been measured in litres and kilograms ever since that time. While the older measures are usually used and understood by those born before 1960, younger Australians rarely use pounds, ounces, stones, degrees Fahrenheit, yards or miles[citation needed]. Some imperial measurements persist in popular usage, such as feet and inches for people's height, along with pounds and ounces for newborn babies and pints for beer[citation needed]."

Ok, first of all, I've change kilograms to grams, since that is the base measurement. I What also changed that to very rarely use pounds etc. as rarely doesn't seem to emphasize how rarely it is used.

No, Kg is the base SI unit, not grams. Irtapil (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

If someone could change the last sentence that would be great. At the moment it sounds like those measurements are used by the majority of Australians, but I know that especially with Generation Y they are disappearing quickly. I'm 18 and no one I know of my approximate age tells people their height in feet and inches.

Last thing, maybe a line should be added telling of the gradual loss of knowledge of the imperial system in younger generations? I'm forever looking up how many kg's a pound is, or converting someone's height to centimetres. Just saying, I don't think it's really common knowledge anymore. And don't get me started on the conversion between units in the metric system! How the hell is anyone supposed to remember how many yards in a mile?

Definitely think this should be reworded to remove assumptions that the general public in Australia is familiar with the imperial measurements system.

EDIT: Darn, forgot to sign. ozkidzez91 (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I have deleted the paragraph about obsolete measurements. This is not relevant to an article about Australian English. It is the actual, official, measurements that changed, not simply the words used to describe them. If Australia used particular measurements but had unique names for them, maybe that could be listed here, but that is not the case. An inch is only ever called an inch, a milimeter is only ever called a milimeter. (American talk of 35mm: but that does not mean it is added to the American English article.) Format (talk) 20:39, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

... or a "millimetre" ... no, it doesn't belong. P.S. the kilogram is the base unit in the SI. JIMp _talk·cont 22:41, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Poor Examples

"Some words, such as freeway and truck, have even been naturalised so completely that few Australians recognise their origin."

Bah! I've never heard anyone refer to any sort of road as a freeway, or a motorway for that matter. I've only ever heard them referred to as a highway. Some people may use freeway, but I think a better example should be put in that sentence, or at least remove that one.

As for truck, it hasn't completely transferred, as few Australians will call their ute a truck. Perhaps this should also be changed? Not as important as that blantant lie about freeway being used! ozkidzez91 (talk) 16:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

i thought "truck" seemed Australian, till i realised you meant ute, a ute is a ute. Truck would only refer to a garbage truck, furniture delivery truck, concrete mixer truck etc. Irtapil (talk) 16:02, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

In Melbourne "Freeway" has been commonly and routinely used in official naming, and amongst the general public, for decades. A freeway is a particular type of roadway, and it is not the same as a highway. See Eastern Freeway, Tullamarine Freeway. Format (talk) 20:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

And in Perth, Mitchell Freeway, Kwinana Freeway, Graham Farmer Freeway. I notice that our article Freeways in Australia includes some "Highways", even though we have a separate article for Highways in Australia. From personal experience, I know that people sometimes refer to Roe Highway and Tonkin Highway as "freeways", even though they are not (they both have traffic lights). Mitch Ames (talk) 03:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Pints of beer

Article says:

Some imperial measurements persist in popular usage, such as feet and inches for people's height, along with pounds and ounces for newborn babies and pints for beer

A pint of beer is not a unit of fluid measure, its a size of glass. Is the schooner, the midi or the pot a unit of measure? No, then neither is the pint or half-pint in this case. Australians don't use pints as a unit of measure, just as a glass size. --SJK (talk) 01:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

It's true that we don't refer to pints of beer in Australia, even though some of the glasses might be very close to the old pint in volume. The only exception might be at English or Irish themed pubs. Michael Glass (talk) 02:05, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

That's not quite true... in Victoria pint and pot are the usual glass sizes. But even in those English/Irish pubs which sell beer by pint and half-pint, the point remains, using a unit of measure as a glass size is not the same thing as actually using it as a unit of measure. --SJK (talk) 00:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

What a load of rubbish. Beer in WA is universally sold by the pint in almost all pubs. Making a distinction between a pint being the glass size vs a unit of measure makes absolutely no sense. It is one pint of beer, it is both the unit of measure and the glass size.

When I arrange to meet my mates at a pub, we'll often "go for a few pints". It is very well established.HappyGod (talk) 01:45, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

but we don't use pints to measure anything other than beer, and we only use it to measure beer in some parts of the country. It's a beer glass size, but not a unit of measure. Irtapil (talk) 16:08, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

It's regionally variable. Pints of beer are a standard size in Brisbane, Queensland, but not in some other places. I think Melbourne might be dull and just call it "small, medium, large"? There's a table elsewhere on wiki with Australian beer sizes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Australia#Beer_glasses Irtapil (talk) 16:06, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

though that alleges pint is "common" everywhere, i've found it's ubiquitous in Brisbane Qld. and rare in Melbourne, and i've only ever had coffee in Sydney... Irtapil (talk) 16:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Swag = items of value in Australian English?

As Swag (disambiguation) makes clear the above meaning is not "Australian" English. Format (talk) 05:30, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

However, is "swagman" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.191.160.118 (talk) 15:24, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Swag is used only rarely in modern Australian English. Most people would only know it from that song. Sometimes it's used when quoting phrases from the USA, but we'd not regard this as Australian English. When used in Australian English it doesn't tend to denote stuff being particularly valuable, if anything it's more akin to junk or bits and pieces. I think i might have heard people refer to getting swag at an event meaning an assortment of branded promo junk like hats and pens. I think i might have also heard it used to mean personal possessions. Irtapil (talk) 16:18, 23 February 2020 (UTC)