Talk:Archibald Gardner/Archive 1

Archive 1

Article organization

I did some reorganizing, minor editing, and established some headings on this article. Even though I am aware of this Mormon pioneer, I found the article confusing and some material excessive. Is some of this material under copyright? As the primary editor is using a Gardner name, is this a family project? Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement has an active workforce, guidelines, and style suggestions which might be helpful here. Best Wishes. WBardwin 07:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Here is a summary of the current sources on this page:

Reference	Comment	Quote
Gardner's Saw Mill, Millcreek Canyon	Good ref but short	GARDNER'S SAW MILL Was erected by Robert Gardner and his sons Archibald, Robert and William, on warm springs stream, in Salt Lake City, Oct. 1847 where three boards were sawed. The mill was moved to this site in 1848 producing the first commercial lumber in Utah on the first formal grant of water for industrial use. Later, a flour mill was erected a few rods upstream, these plants giving the name, Millcreek, to the stream and canyon. Gardner's Fort, domicile of the Gardner families, was located a short distance northeast, the Gardners receiving the first permit to leave the pioneer fort.
Pic from byu.edu	Picture	n/a
rootsweb.com	Does not meet WP:RS	Primary source - letter about Gardner from wife of ancestor see WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper)
blogspot.com	Does not meet WP:RS	Geneology and references back to Wikipedia
Norway to Utah	Does not meet WP:RS	Blogs are not reliable sources unless published by a well known professional. Includes geneology list of wives and children
History of Richland County	Probably ok	Self published in 1880 by AA Graham The next year (1810), Archibald Gardner, Samuel Hill, David Hill and some others came. It is not certainly known whether they came in the fall of 1809, or the spring of 1810, more likely the latter. It is a question whether Samuel Hill or Archibald Gardner was the first settler in Mifflin on the Richland County side of the line, but the preponderance of evidence seems to be in favor of the former. Samuel Hill settled on the northeast quarter of Section 33, now occupied by Solomon Balliett. If he settled there when he first came-and there is no evidence he did not he was the first, or among the first settlers in Mifflin in Richland County. Where Archibald Gardner was during the year 1810 has not been ascertained, but in the following year, he traveled up the Black Fork, and built his cabin three-fourths of a mile north of the present village of Windsor, on the northwest quarter of Section 5. He was the first settler in this part of the township. It has been before stated that Gardner built his cabin on the site of the village, but Dr. William Bushnell, who is good authority on matters of that kind, places it as stated above. ... Joseph Page purchased the land on which Windsor is situated, of Archibald Gardner, who settled here, as before stated, in 1811. ...
Rootsweb.com	Does not meet WP:RS	Self published geneology including pedigree charts
List of names	Does not meet WP:RS	Self published list of peole in a photo
Sprague Geneology	could be ok	Mostly geneology but has this note: "Archibald Gardner had several mills. One is marked in Midvale, Utah and is now a wonderful old shopping mall but the most interesting is the one marking his mill in Afton, Wyoming, home of Rulon Gardner, gold medalist wrestler from our most recent Olympics. He is a descendent of Hezikiah Sprague if I have it right."
Geneology	Does not meet WP:RS	Looks self published, but has references though no author is identified.
West Jordan	Good - newspaper article	...After meeting, the carriages being ready, the President and company bade goodbye to Bishop Gardner and the Saints there, and returned to the city, by the road on the west side of the river; a mounted escort accompanying for several miles. An interesting story is attached to this little rock church. In 1859 Archibald Gardner was ordained bishop of West Jordan Ward, then numbering about 600 members, and it was he who planned the sturdy building. After many difficulties because of crude tools, the cornerstone was laid May 15th, 1861. Many men worked for nothing; others were paid with produce. Red sandstone for the walls was hauled by ox, horse and mule teams from a quarry near the Oquirrh Range, and the granite trim came from Little Cottonwood Canyon. When the three-foot-thick walls had been erected and the floor laid, no more funds were available, so work came to a standstill. ---Deseret News, August 14, 1867
Gardner Village	Does not meet WP:RS	Shopping Center promotion with a quick summary
millpictures.com	Does not meet WP:RS	Great Pictures for an External Link but not really a source. External links should provide extra detail, including pictures, for the reader to find additional information about the article subject WP:EL (paraphrased from memory)
Archibald Gardner Journal, 1814-1857	Does not meet WP:RS	Primary Source - and self published on a blog to boot
HistoryToGo from utah.gov	Good source	Should probably be referenced as "Bartholomew, Becky. History Blazer, November 1995... In the past two decades Salt Lake Valley's West Side has come into its own, with booming population and economic growth. Yet few people know moving "over Jordan" is a valley tradition that began with "Archie" Gardner and his gristmill. Canadians Archibald and Margaret Livingston Gardner were not the first couple to cross the Jordan River and settle along Bingham Creek. But their arrival changed the future of "West Jordan," which then comprised everything west of the Jordan River, ranging from Point of the Mountain to the Great Salt Lake. Archie had built his first flour mill at age 17 plus two other mills in Canada before joining the Mormons. Arriving in Utah in 1847, he quickly obtained rights to Warm Springs and attempted to install a mill there. The water volume proved insufficient, so he moved his machinery to Mill Creek and later claimed to have sawed the first lumber in the new Mormon community. But Mill Creek "dried up" (according to his brother Robert), so in 1849 the Gardner brothers dismantled the mill and carried it across the Jordan River to Bingham Creek, where four or five families had already "moved over" and were attempting to farm despite the Oquirrh Range's shortage of year-round water courses. The Gardners and their crew immediately set to digging a 2.5-mile millrace for their planned sawmill and gristmill. The channel would be enlarged time and again as an important irrigation canal. They had to construct a low dam at approximately 90th South to raise the river to a level that would feed the canal. The millrace alone cost $5,000, and they financed the entire enterprise themselves. The Gardners built well. Many years later a grandson helped to tear down one of these pioneer mills with grandfather Archie looking on. The young laborers quickly learned that early-type mills were built not with nails but with mortises and pins that tightened under use until there was "hardly a quiver when running." The demolition crew was stymied until Archie, smiling broadly, instructed them to "start at the key corner where the last brace...was located." Wrote the grandson, "When that was found, all was easy." Gardner Mill inspired a cluster of small industries, including blacksmith shops, logging and hauling operations, woolen and carding mills, a tannery, several stores, a shoe shop, and later a broom factory. Each employed more settlers, entrenching the Gardner Mill as hub of the west side's first industrial center. As for Archibald and Robert Gardner, their families grew along with their modest business empire. Archie would eventually boast 11 wives and 48 children and build a total of 35 mills in his lifetime. A descendant wrote that Archie's "real pleasure" was to construct the mills, turning them over to others to operate. On occasion he would almost give a mill away so as to raise capital for yet another. For a time Archie sought to make Spanish Fork his primary home, but this ambition ended when Brigham Young called him to be bishop of the West Jordan Ward. Archie served as Jordan's chief church and civic leader for more than three decades. Poor brother Robert, on the other hand, learned that "settling down to any kind of labor in a 'Mormon' life was very uncertain." He was just beginning to enjoy the fruits of the Jordan mill when he was called on a mission to Canada. He returned, rebuilt the Mill Creek mill, and was once again becoming a man of substance when he was asked to colonize Utah's Dixie. He never thought to reject a church calling. Apparently his frontier experience had taught him, with many other Utahns of his generation, to subordinate individual ambition to the community welfare.
Mormons in Canada	Good source	Should probably be referenced as "Ursenbach, Maureen and Jenson, Richard L. The Peoples of Utah... Moore does not identify what distinctive features marked their party, but the comment suggests that Mormon migrations in the Niagara Peninsula were not uncommon, a conclusion borne out by the naming of Archibald Gardner's road from his settlement in Alvinston to the highway, the "Nauvoo Road." ... Robert and Neal Gardner, sons of Scottish-born Archibald Gardner who built gristmills first in Ontario and then in Utah, appear as the only members of their family to show Canadian origins, having been born in Alvinston, the Ontario town their father founded.
Alvinston History	Does not meet WP:RS	Self published brief summary of the mill Gardner built in Alvinston (the first one in Alvinston).
Mining Claim Document	Does not meet WP:RS	Primary source
Wagon Train members	Does not meet WP:RS	Gardner listed as a "Captain of ten" and family members also listed, more like a primary source
Archibald Gardner mining activities	WP:RS?	Not sure if it is a reliable source or not, but the text is very thin: "In 1863 George B. Ogilvie, Archibald Gardner and some soldiers from Fort Douglas found minerals while retreiving lumber from the canyon. General Patrick Conner assayed it and found the ore rich in gold and silver. Mining began, but due to the steepness of the canyon, and difficulty in mining, these attempts were made uneconomical. Although One claim in 1868 yielded $2,000,000 in gold. By 1869 fewer than 100 miners lived in the canyon."
Notes about Archibald Gardner	Does not meet WP:RS	self published genealogy information - duplicates information from other links
Afton Monument	Does not meet WP:RS	primary source - provides text of the monument

Basically there are 5 sources which appear independent. All are summaries of his life and not the type of source one would normally want in developing a good biographical encyclopedic article.

The basic problem I have to start with is that when the article has more words in it about the subject than the combined number of words from all of the referenced sources; there is a problem. Encyclopedia articles should summarize secondary sources and thus should not be longer than those sources. I count about 1400 words combined from all the text about Gardner in all the OK, Probably OK, and RS? versus over 2000 in the article (not including the external links section). Thus, my assumption is that there must be some original research in the article. --Trödel 19:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's another possible source that could be useful on this topic: Delila Gardner Hughes, The life of Archibald Gardner: Utah Pioneer of 1847, 2d ed. rev. (Draper, Utah: Review and Preview, 1970) -- 159.182.1.4 22:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Original Research and Citation tags

I restored the tags because there still is some original research. Additionally, although some citations have been added more are still needed --Trödel 00:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Trodel's dogged point of view reminds me of today's NY Times issue, discussing the roads of 1600 AD Peru, created by Inca engineers. Attested history had usually not mentioned the many rope bridges that allowed the mountain road system to be a vital link in Incan life, though Incas had not developed the wheel, a modern need of users of roads (as noted by http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/science/08bridg.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ),

Yet, I contend that the exclusion of bridges was one of the 'original Inca research' errors that needed to be excised. That is, Utah historians have commonly excised infrastructure issues that did not fit their predetermined idealistic Zion (Deseret) story line. It appears that the life of Archibald contains several stark realities of pioneer life subjects. One stark reality was gristmills, and how dire/difficult everyday Utah life was without an adequate supply of money. Living in a 'cash strapped economy' pioneer Utah life needs to be put into its fully historical context. In addition, returning to the Inca rope bridge analogy, the issue of Pioneer Utah's infrastructure needs to be fully addressed. One of the major builders of Utah canals, and bridges was Archibald Gardner. Adding back the often ignored infrastructure leaders of pioneer Utah, and its attested infrastructure story is required (at some point). Adding back the often ignored projects that Archibald Gardner spent his leadership years, has often been the context of Trodel's over zealous editing (issues that can be discussed over months and years). The attested pioneer context needs to returned, over months and years, and not days (a position that I have never suggested). Thank you one and all for pointing this project in the proper direction. There is much to do. Best Regards, Milogardner

Look I really don't care about the "idealistic Zion (Deseret) story" and I am not even sure what that is, if it even exists. I understand the importance of Gristmills, but that can be stated in a concise way referencing a reliable source. However, if the article states or implies that Gardner is a visionary because he inherently understood the importance..., then we are not writing neutrally. We can say, "Jones states that 'Gardner's vision of gristmills showed a vision of a more propserous community." or whatever he said. If several refernces say the same thing then we can summarize as, "Historians ascribe the construction of gristmills by Gardner as proving a vital link for the economic expansion..." and then reference several historians that made that claim. However, the sources need to be reliable.

I understand that you are frustrated. However, continuing to insult me is not helpful. --Trödel 14:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Original research? Questionable source. The external link to the "Journal of Archibald Gardner" shows that this material was "Posted by milo gardner at 6:08 AM." So, Milo Gardner published the journal material online and then quoted it in this article? Has this material been quoted/published elsewhere? ISBN? 65.54.97.190 02:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment

Summary

Written by Trödel - please edit for neutrality if needed

Since it seems that only Trödel and Milogardner seem to be commenting about this article, therefor a wider group of contributors is needed to reach concensus. The positions are (Milogardner, please feel free to edit the text below identifying your position):

• Trödel: The biography is not neutrally presented, contains original research, and is too detailed.
• Milogardner: The biography is generally accurate. Additional details are needed to bring into focus the pioneer economic world that Archibald Gardner worked so hard to improve, by adding mediums of exchange when no hard money was available.

Trödel and Milogardner have traded several barbs(see Trödel talk and Milogardner talk), so a Request for Comment has been filed by Trödel.

Milogardner responds: Trodel strongly requests detailed footnotes (style issues), while Milogardner requests substance issues (putting the pioneer past into perspective).Gardner cites content and footnotes by combining the two aspects of the Wiki topics into a unified whole.

Issues

• From WBardwin
  • "My concerns about the article, including those personality details, are probably covered in Wikipedia:No original research which is a firm Wiki policy. Material without some published source, somewhere, is simply considered inapproriate for the Wiki. So, unless your family material has been formally published, you should trim those personal details." from User talk:Milogardner.
    • This issue of Archibald's personality has been excised from the article for the present (a topic that is not been protested), until two or more secondary sources detail his story telling and attest personality. Milogardner
  • "I found the article confusing and some material excessive." from #Article organization
• From Trödel
  • "...there must be some original research in the article" from #Trodel_issue_1
    • Trodel's blind belief that there must be original research in the article is odd, for several reasons. First, he does not name one issue, though he excises several topics, shotgunning away, thinking that one or two original topic must have been hit. How strange. Milogardner
  • The biography is not neutrally presented summary of other comments*

A Request for Comment has been posted to the Biography page to get additional viewpoints on this article. I also notified all editors and anons who made substantive edits to the article. 172.144.152.6, 68.21.251.30, 172.135.123.185, 63.224.137.164, Bronsongardner, 75.48.13.240, 12.106.111.10, Milogardner, and WBardwin

Trodel, for one, has not provided his qualifications to edit the life of Archibald Gardner, a Utah pioneer. Until Trodel. and other committee members, can show that the pioneer life of Utah is known to him (and them), their attempts at improving Archibald's life work building the infrastructure of Utah, from canals that operated gristmills, and the bridges that crossed canals and rivers will be seen as a modern view of minimally reporting a man's life. Milogardner

Trodel, state your position, by CV or some other method, and let's get off your modern views of a man that died 105 years ago, someone that you still know little of --- when quotes are given, you claim copyright issues; when quotes are not given you claim original research. You have a pat answer, since you are operating from an unstated agenda. Please state your agenda.Milogardner

Dear whomever said " looks like this material is in dispute -- please take material to the talk page for discussion." I am ready to discuss any aspect of Archibald's life. Please be specific when erasing any statement. This is, erasing a block of data, dropping off an unclear comment leaving fuzzy words "looks like this material is in dispute" is almost meaningless. From May 14 to May 17, 2007 I visited Utah and Wyoming locations, seeing all the cemeteries and all the monuments, and so forth, discussing with several family members, and others, the scope and purpose of the Archibald Gardner Wikipedia web page. It is greatly needed. Fragments of Archibald's live need to be pulled together, on Wikipedia since so many people have dropped the ball over the years. The blog attachments can be used by those interested in family history, however, the Wikipedia text is used for verified history of the man's life! Best Regards, Milogardner

Comments

I created this RFC and the summary above because I can't seem to work with Milogardner. I tried to be helpful at first, but that deteriorated. What needs to be addressed, however, are the substantive issues raised by WBardwin and myself. --Trödel 16:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Trodel continually offers value judgments* and no detailed explanations of his possible original research position. My position is that Trodel does not understand (and therefore does no independent review footnotes/blogs that describe the pioneer life and economy of 1831-1857) the period when Archibald built gristmills, and lumber mills, in Canada and Utah. When a validated historical topic is cited, fuzzily at first by myself in certain cases, Trodel reacts by often excising it or demanding an excessive number of footnotes - so somone else can does his review of a well defined topic. Best Regards, Milogardner

I have explained every edit in the edit summary - as well as try to explain generally how an encyclopedic article should be writting. It should be concise, provide some details to set things in context, but should not be a flowery tribute. Here are the Substantive comments I have made.

• edit ~ References – more removal see edit by Milogardner where they were added just because I mentioned them
• edit ~ References – removing references I found on google books - but which have not been read to determine relevance as they are not accessible
• edit ~ Life in the West – describe link better
• edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – although this is in rootsweb - that is not a reliable source
• edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – copyedit
• edit ~ This is way too much detail for an encyclopedia - summarizing and including references
• edit ~ Plural Marriage and Family – completely unsourced
• edit ~ In West Jordan, Utah – copyedit
• edit ~ Mormon pioneer – totally unsourced details
• edit ~ Mormon pioneer – summarizing
• edit ~ Mormon pioneer – add reference and summarize the text
• edit ~ Settlement in Utah – ore nsourced details
• edit ~ Early LDS Church membership – unreferenced quotes and claims
• edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – this claim of being used in Uncle Tom's Cabin must be referenced - it looks like something someone would make up and through into wikipedia to make wikipedia look foolish
• edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – removing another plagiarized sentence
• edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – remove more plagiarized text
• edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – no reason for this sentence
• edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – assuming that building without nails is unusual leaving this in and wording more succintly
• edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – remove general information about Gristmills that is in the gristmill article
• edit ~ remove unsourced $33 price - and rewording sentence so it doesn't plagiarize
• edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – unneeded
• edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – remove plagiarized sentence from http://www.xcelco.on.ca/~alvilib/history.htm
• edit ~ Business and Public Service – remove unsourced claims
• edit ~ Business and Public Service – remove expansion of text from source
• edit ~ Plural Marriage and Family – and more text attributed to blogs
• edit ~ Plural Marriage and Family – remove more text that is attributed to blogs
• edit ~ move this from summary - it isn't a summary but more a description of gristmills
• edit ~ Early life – removing text attributed to a blog post

I would be happy to discuss the details with you. However, I am not sure how we can move forward discussing the details when we seem to strongly disagree about how to write an encyclopedic article. In my mind until we can come to some concensus on the application of the policies in this article it will be difficult to move forward. --Trödel 14:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Trodel's position is that Milogardner has no professional experience writing encyclopedia articles. Is he published? I am, in the history of math community, once in an excyclopedia, and twice in journals. Keeping an article to its salient points is critical. It is also critical to prove every point that is made in objective terms, and when necessary in practical terms. So far Trodel only takes the low road concerning Archibald, detroying his life's topics, most often because he had not shown that he ad read one of the references cited, and so forth. That is, Ostrichs do no make good editors. Best Regards, Milogardner

That is not my position at all. Where have I said that? It is no wonder you feel the need to insult me if you read such hostile motives into my request that the article be neutral, free of original research, and properly referenced. --Trödel 11:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

ps, my bio and CV are available online, at the end of http://egyptianmath.blogspot.com. Can others cite their qualifications and thereby stop providing premature value judgments on a topic that may be new to them. Milogardner

Trodel,what is your position? Please do not be brief. You cite minimal reasons in the edit summary line. Better yet, beyond your personal qualifications (note that I have cited mine by link), it would be interesting to see your committee's position on Archibald Gardner. Why do you guys dislike his life so much. He built Utah's infrastructure, from canals, bridges and mills that operated in canals and rivers, and much more. Let's get back to discussing a man's life, so that this Wiki War can end, gracefully for both sides. Best Regards, Milogardner

I have long thought that this article has notability problems (see Category:Wikipedia articles with topics of unclear importance, Wikipedia:Ownership of articles and Wikipedia:Notability). As a counter example, one of my pioneer ancestors was a peer of Archibald. He was born in Massachusetts in 1810, and joined the new church there in 1832. He moved with the Saints to Kirtland, and followed them to the Rocky Mountains. During his lifetime, he built and operated many flour mills.

• Kirtland 1834.
• Far West in 1837. Some of the proceeds from this mill financed the British mission.
• near Nauvoo, Illinois circa 1842.
• Winter Quarters in 1846, at the request of the Twelve so that the pioneers could grind grain for the trek west.
• Weber Valley in 1848.
• Willard, Box Elder Valley in 1851.
• Southern Utah in 1864 as part of the "mission" settlement of the Muddy River.
• Ten Mile pass, Idaho in 1876, again as part of a called mission.

He served an ecclesiastical mission in Britain in 1856 and returned home during the Utah War. Later in life, in Utah, he served as a Bishop for many years and (somewhat reluctantly) became a polygamist and ultimately raised three families. Only modestly educated, he was a great reader and established several schools. He served as US postmaster in Willard and rode the mail route between Southern Utah to Nevada, often dealing with Indians, and was severely injured on one occasion. From all accounts, he was charming but "unhandsome", frugal, honest, had a wry sense of humor and was an overall good guy.

We have this information from family records and from a few incidental references in journals by more prominent Church members. He is also found in church and missionary records in the church headquarters. A book about him was produced during the family history push by the DUP in the 1940's and I own a copy. However, the book is not generally available to the public and would not be an acceptable source by Wikipedia standards. Despite the fact that his descendants are proud of him and remember him fondly, all this information does not make my ancestor notable by Wikipedia standards and I would not consider producing an article on him. If the Mormonwiki had a project on Mormon pioneers (not a bad idea?), I could place an article there.

So -- I believe that if Archibald Gardner is to have a Wikipedia article, it must focus on what makes the man notable, unique and/or outstanding. All information retained in the article should be based on sources that other people can review and reference. Alternatively, perhaps an article on Industrial Development in "Zion" could be written, with Archibald as a primary example of mill building and development. This would allow us to focus some attention on many other Mormon pioneers that were not in the Church heirarchy but provided expertise and skill to the development of the Mountain West. WBardwin 20:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Brother Baldwin. The tone and scope of your qualifications is considerable and well appreciated. It appears that you are saying that a background article om "Industrial Development in Zion" is required prior to the gristmill aspects of Archibald's life being properly introduced. Given that Archibald's infrastructure work, extending well beyond the development of the first businesses in several towns, namely the building of bridges, canals and other constructions were that reimbursed by the Territorial Legislature, may I disagree with your assessment. Archibald became an elected Legislator, for two terms, and provided other leadership functions that the Wiki format can and should properly document. That is, you and your committee persons' odd 'hit and run' tactics have shown little or no real background in pioneer Utah, and the macro view of Western pioneer economic topics. Given your committee's limited biography mandate (oddly excising Archibald's polygamy, also taken on reluctantly), would you, or someone on your committee, at some future point claim/demand that a second background Wiki project ' "Canal and Bridge Development in Zion", as you are requesting with gristmills? From my point of view, it is odd that my well established and standard macro (positive) top down view of Utah and the West is not being allowed to trump (or considered as an equal) to your defensive nonstandard inside out oriented editors. Again, your editors seem to be taking a micro, inside out view off Utah pioneer life, as noted by stressing Zion (a failed political/religious entity), rather than the West (a winning US political entity). Archibald's canal and bridge building, mining and other leadership activities deserve to be included a Wiki life story! Let's get off the myopia, and onto the great economic treads that built the United States, noting Utah as one small state in many. Milogardner

Finally, your reference to "I believe that if Archibald Gardner is to have a Wiki ..." is an odd fallback position. State up front the charter of your LDS biography committee' work, and rein it in when members of your committee hav e exceeded their authority, as I suggest (above) by requesting an "Industrial Development in Zion" Wiki project. Such a topic, if created would necessarily be of a broader regional scope. Limiting any pioneer topic to Zion, as you have suggested' is creating the exact type of myopic view of the pioneer West that Archibald Garndner's Wiki project is designed to confront and correct. Best Regards, Milogardner

Gremlin's are not allowing my full post to be entered. So I'll try again. Milogardner

SmackBot cleared the 'unclear importance' category assignment

I noticed that this was in the Category: Wikipedia articles with topics of unclear importance. Recently SmackBot removed it from that category, perhaps because it lacked an 'nn' (non-notable) tag. Since I haven't been active on this page, I did not restore the tag, but it seems like logic would require it to be put back, if the editors here still don't have reliable sources for his notability. EdJohnston 20:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Archive 1