Talk:Aoraki / Mount Cook National Park

Not sure of its importance to the article

But would it be interesting to add the logistics of how the crew of The Hobbit crew had to minimize the impact on the vegetation in the area? It's a nice piece showing how well they did to not disturb such an ancient site and still manage to show off its beauty and get the shots they needed for the film.

Warning about the serious nature of mountaineering

I think it would be useful to state

1. the number of deaths that have occurred.

2. that weather conditions are more changeable than say Europe.

as a warning to recreational users.Aaabbb11 (talk) 17:30, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Good articles about mountains at Mt Cook

I think this article would be worth adding to the external links, because of info it contains. Climbers missing on Aoraki-Mt Cook may never be found Aaabbb11 (talk) 12:09, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Merge this article with Aoraki / Mount Cook

Copying info between these articles is problematic because of refs. There is lots of overlap between the 2 articles. Sections for Forests and glaciers, Area history, and probably Climate on the Aoraki / Mount Cook article are for the park, rather than the mountain.Aaabbb11 (talk) 19:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Also put this information on Talk:Aoraki_/_Mount_Cook#Merge this article with Aoraki.2FMount Cook National Park Aaabbb11 (talk) 05:13, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Dark sky reserve

There ought to be a section on the Dark Sky Reserve.Royalcourtier (talk) 04:21, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Done. Marshelec (talk) 02:12, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Article format - rework timeline?

The National Parks Taskforce general guidelines suggest that under 'history', there are subtopics Use by Maori, Early Pakeha, Park Establishment etc. The page currently has a timeline, most of which is mountaineering or the Hermitage. The Hermitage has its own page, so this page could have less and link to that? I can't find any article about Mountaineering in New Zealand, but I think there should be one, and this page could just have a paragraph on mountaineering under history or activities. Would anyone mind if I rework the timeline into several paragraphs and disperse its content into other sections? I have some sources about early European access and concerns about the area.~~~ Wainuiomartian (talk) 20:35, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

The subheadings on the article outline are more intended as a guideline rather than a hard and fast rule. I think it would be worth covering mountaineering and early tourism in some detail, given how significant the area was to the development of both in New Zealand (Mount Cook Airlines, anyone?), which would necessitate a bit of coverage on the Hermitage. With that said, you're right that it can probably be covered in more detail by linking to the main article.

Beyond that, totally happy for the timeline to be reworked into prose! Turnagra (talk) 20:59, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Possible GA review soon

Article looks good, the predicted quality is: GA (5.25). Alexeyevitch^(talk) 04:27, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

It still needs a section on establishment as a National Park, and possibly geology? Wainuiomartian (talk) 05:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

It would be good to include a geology section in the article, and I'm happy to help with working on those two needed sections. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 05:51, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I think there is still some way to go before it could be ready for a GA review. I offer these suggestions for further work. I prefer to focus on other articles at present, so hope someone will consider these points:

1. a new sub-section is needed on Establishment of the park
2. a brief new sub-section could be usefully added about the designation as a World Heritage Site (along with Fiordland, Mt Aspiring, Westland Tai Poutini National Park). Move the existing content out of the Geography section and expand
3. a new sub-section in the History section about the significance of the region to Māori, and in particular Ngäi Tahu values in relation to Aoraki/Mt Cook and topics arising from the Ngai Tahu treaty claims settlement
4. the content about climbing Mt Cook in the section "Early mountaineering" should perhaps be scaled back a bit, but have a "further" template link to the relevant section of the article Aoraki / Mount Cook. Other content should be added about the early history of climbing of other peaks in the park
5. the Geography section needs content re-ordering to make it flow better. Should start with the highest level descriptions and work down into detail.
6. Under Climate, the content "Anyone venturing further than the walking tracks is strongly advised to notify their intentions at the Visitor Centre on the day they start. This is part of a formal intentions process that operates in the park and is used to initiate formal search operations." should be removed - WP:NOTGUIDE
7. it may be useful to add content about the effects of climate change and the retreat of glaciers/ changes to glacier lakes
8. the Geology section should be substantially expanded. There must be more that is worth including. I note that the word "moraine" only features once in the article, under Flora.
9. the Fauna section needs revision, to use common names and not Te Reo names, unless the Te Reo names are the common name (eg kea). However, Te Reo names in brackets would be fine, eg Australasian Harrier (kahu). Also the description of the kahu as a "large and slim bird" is odd and should be removed.
10. Under Conservation and human interaction, a new sub-section with more content is warranted about the Huts in the park. Some of these huts are probably notable in their own right.
11. Similarly, a new sub-section is warranted about Tourism, given that the park is such a major tourist destination, possibly involving moving some content from other sections. Here is one useful source: [1]
12. I suggest new sub-sections on introduced animals and hunting within the park. I understand that Chamois and Himalayan tahr are a significant threat to alpine ecosystems, and that their numbers are not well-controlled
13. make all convert templates consistent (I prefer abbr=on)
14. find someone who can make a reasonable map of the park to add into the Infobox - or just below it, or if that can't be done, add an external link to a published map of the park, showing the park boundaries against the landscape.

Marshelec (talk) 07:08, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Have you made a map before? I agree that we need a more accurate map in the infobox. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 11:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

For some reason I thought that I had gone through all of the national parks and updated them to interactive maps based on OSM. I've gone and put that in for this one now and can do the others later. Turnagra (talk) 18:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I have huts on my to-do list, but I was going to put them under mountaineering. I'll add it somewhere and somebody else can rearrange as desired.

Also was going to put in more about Chamois/tahr as pests

Tourism (and over-tourisism) is a good idea.

Will ask daughter about making a map.

Agree, more work needed! Wainuiomartian (talk) 17:49, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 06:27, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

National Park Management Plan review - consultation draft

A major review of the management plan for the park has been underway for several years. It was paused but appears to be underway again. There are valuable sources at this consultation site, albeit that they represent a draft. See: [2] . Anything useful should be archived at the Internet Archive, just in case it disappears when the consultation closes ! Marshelec (talk) 08:12, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Lead

Might expand a bit on Te Wāhipounamu and briefly mention the flora and fauna in the national park, per WP:LEAD and WP:BOLD of course. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 23:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 07:56, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Lead Length

I think the lead length is good. I would've added a new paragraph about geology but probably not at this point unless the forth paragraph gets trimmed, I suppose that the geology of the national park is more noteworthy in the lead then the village itself. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 07:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Mountaineering section

The first paragraph of the Mountaineering section currently requires review. It has insufficient citations and contains content that is like an essay or guide and needs reworking, replacement or deletion.Marshelec (talk) 00:15, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done, I have removed unsourced information and copyedited / added refs to encyclopedic content that should be mentioned. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 03:29, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Coverage of National Park management plan and reviews

I recommend including content in the article about the DOC management plan and the process for review. Although the management plans can be cited as sources for various topics, the plans themselves are worth covering, because they set out important provisions for access, concessions, and a range of other management activities. The draft management plans have also been the subject of controversy, plus there has been a substantial pause in the review of the management plan, as a result of the 2018 Supreme Court decision relating to Ngāi Tai ki Tāmaki. I have added some content about the court decision and its implications here: National parks of New_Zealand#2018_Supreme_Court_decision.

With regards to Aoraki Mt Cook National Park, here are some sources about the pause, restart and progress of work on the review of the management plan: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8].Marshelec (talk) 18:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Aoraki / Mount Cook National Park/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Alexeyevitch (talk · contribs) 06:35, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Cloventt (talk · contribs)

I'm going to start this review today. My feeling from an initial read-through is this article pretty easily exceeds WP:GACR, so thank you for your hard work on this subject. My review comments will differentiate between things that need to be corrected for the article to pass GA, and general comments on how to improve the article. I'll review each top-level section in order.

In the situation you dispute any of my feedback, please let me know. I'm also happy for you to seek a second-opinion. Here is a guide to what the GA criteria are, and another to what they are not. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 22:08, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

GA review

Last updated: 01:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC) by Cloventt

See what the criteria are and what they are not

1) Well-written

1a) the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct

1b) it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation

2) Verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check

2a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline

2b) reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose)

2c) it contains no original research

2d) it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism

3) Broad in its coverage

3a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic

3b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)

4) Neutral:

4) Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each

5) Stable:

5) Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute

6) Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio

6a) media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content

6b) media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions

Overall:

Comments:

Lead section / Infobox
Suggestions: At the end of the most recent ice age,: approximately when was this? Perhaps include a year with a Template:circa. Required: ...because it has a clear atmosphere...: I don't see any mention of air quality in the rest of the article. Content in the lead needs to be mentioned and cited elsewhere in the article.

History

Suggestions: 'Aoraki' is Ngāi Tahu dialect for 'Aorangi'.: This fact does not seem important in the context. The sentence/section could be rearranged to explain that northern iwi use 'Aorangi' for this name, or the fact could probably be removed. Julius von Haast explored the area at the head of Lakes Tekapo, Pukaki and Ōhau in 1862, collecting specimens, making maps and writing comprehensive reports on his observations, and, starting in 1867, surveyor Edward Sealy explored many glaciers.: Could be split for readability. Required: Although there is no evidence of permanent or temporary Māori settlement within the national park, some artefacts and evidence of burnt vegetation such as tōtara have been found in the nearby Mackenzie Basin, and the seasonal food-gathering settlement of Punatahu, on the southern shore of Lake Pukaki.: This sentence is too long, please split. In the 1860s, explorer and geologist Julius von Haast had many conversations with Māori in Westland and Canterbury and formed the strong opinion that Māori had not crossed the Main Divide anywhere between Haast Pass near Lake Wānaka and the passes north of Aoraki / Mount Cook National Park that link the Hokitika and Rakaia rivers.: This sentence is too long, please split. Historian Johannes Carl Andersen believed it was possible that Māori had travelled over the Main Divide via Godley Glacier and Sealy Pass, which is at the northern boundary of Aoraki / Mount Cook National Park, to trade pounamu, but others dispute this.: This sentence is too long, please split. In Note a: It is expected that the New Zealand Geographic Board will change the name to include spaces around the slash in the future. Who is expecting this?

Establishment as a national park

Suggestions: The word 'gazetted' should be wikilinked as some readers will not know what that means. Required: Efforts to protect the alpine environment began early.: This sentence feels incomplete, early in what context? requesting that the Government protect the alpine region around Aoraki / Mount Cook “from the ruthless demolition that has already deprived it of half its beauty".: This sentence needs a citation. I know it is cited at the end of the section but I think you also need one at the end of the sentence for a direct quote.

Geography

Required: The valleys of the Tasman, Hooker, and Godley glaciers are the only entrances into the alpine territory that lie below 1,000 m (3,300 ft).: This paragraph is uncited. At the end of the most recent ice age around 13,000 years ago,[38] the Mueller Glacier, Hooker Glacier, and Haupapa / Tasman Glacier were all tributaries of a much larger glacier covering all of Hooker Valley and Tasman Valley in hundreds of metres of ice.: This sentence is too long, please split. Eight of the twelve largest glaciers in New Zealand lie within Aoraki / Mount Cook National Park: the Tasman Glacier, Hooker Glacier, Murchison Glacier and Mueller Glacier are in the area surrounding Aoraki / Mount Cook, while further north in the park lie the Godley Glacier, Classen Glacier, Grey Glacier and Maud Glacier.: This sentence is too long, please split.

Geology

Suggestions: Ref [54] is a dead link, may as well just link to the archived version. The rock types in the second paragraph (greywacke, argillite, schist) could be wikilinked. Required: Over the last 45 million years, the collision of the two tectonic plates has pushed up a 25 km thickness of rocks on the Pacific Plate to form the Southern Alps, in a process of uplifting known as the Kaikōura orogeny which is still continuing.: This sentence is too long, please split. There are two main rock types in the Southern Alps: sedimentary sandstones, greywacke and argillite, mostly to the east of the Main Divide; and metamorphic schists mostly to the west of the Main Divide.: The prose here is a bit awkward. I think my main issue is the section sedimentary sandstones, greywacke and argillite, which reads like a list of three rocks rather than what it is (the category of rock and the two types). I think this could be somewhat resolved by splitting the sentence.

Ecology

Required: In adjacent regions, native forest grows to about 1,300 metres (4,300 ft), however, most parts of the park are either at higher altitudes above the tree line or in the proglacial valleys such as the Hooker Valley and Tasman Valley, where the rocky soil of the valley floors and moraine walls do not support forest growth.: This sentence is too long, please split. such as silver beech and tōtara trees: this clause needs closing punctuation. however the piopio went extinct later.: Feels a little awkward, I would rewrite to however the piopio later became extinct.

Human interaction

Suggestions: There are two disconnected sentences about Ed Hillary. I think these could be combined to make the flow better. Required: Skiing-touring: should be 'Ski-touring'. This can also be wikilinked (take care to remove the Ski-touring wikilink from the tourism section). The Hermitage Hotel complex is the focal point of Mount Cook Village, the main point of access to the mountains of Aoraki / Mount Cook National Park.: Rearrange to move 'Mt Cook Village being the main point of access' to the front, as this is the most important fact. The Hermitage Hotel is less important, so the current order makes the prose feel awkward. Given that the hotel has its own section, the up-front mention here could also just be removed. The peaks of the Aoraki / Mount Cook region have long attracted New Zealand mountaineers.: This sentence specifies "New Zealand mountaineers" but the next sentence says the first travelled from outside New Zealand. In this case we can just say "mountaineers".

Management and conservation
Suggestions: 'Tourism NZ' in the Higgins quote could be wikilinked to Tourism New Zealand. In the interests of balance, it might be worth mentioning that while DOC recommends eradicating tahr, there are some people that campaign to keep them around as hunting targets. The section on lead toxicity in Kea could wikilink to the Animal lead poisoning article. :

I think my review of the prose is complete now, as expected the changes are very minor. Great work! David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 23:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate that, note that I'm "puzzled" with your last suggestion on the geology section, could you please describe this in simpler terms? Alexeyevitch^(talk) 23:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

If I were to rewrite, it would be something like:

There are two main rock types in the Southern Alps: sedimentary sandstones and metamorphic schists. The sandstones are greywacke and argillite, mostly to the east of the Main Divide, whereas the schists are mostly to the west of the Main Divide.

Hope that helps. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 00:30, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done Alexeyevitch^(talk) 00:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Sources spot check

Ref 148: Y Ref 10: Y, though the source does not mention Geraldine but instead just the "Arowhenua region". Ref 13: Y, I assume this ref is mostly to establish the date Ref 2: Y Ref 35: Y, though this needs maintenance. For me the link did not resolve. A better option might be this. Ref 116: Y Ref 140: Y Ref 24: Y Ref 11: Y Ref 155: Y Ref 110: Y Ref 22: Y Ref 149: Y Ref 171: Y Ref 164: Y Ref 40: Y Ref 28: Y Ref 12: Y

Overall the sources look good. There are some primary sources in there, but in most cases these are backed by a secondary citation.

Image check

• This File:Mount Cook, New Zealand.jpg of Highway 80 in front Aoraki is a bit suspect to me. Commons says the source is some Facebook page (which does not load for me), but a tag says it was also imported from Flickr. I recommend either replacing this photo or verifying the copyright and updating the commons page with the results of the investigation.

Images are great, pleased to see the inclusion of a Featured Image as well! David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 00:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Removed the odd image and replaced it with an image with a certain copyright license status. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 00:47, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Final comments This article is in really good shape, thank you for your excellent work. My overall feedback points for future articles are:

• Watch the length of sentences. In most cases a long sentence can be split into multiple to make it easier to read. I'm completely guilty of writing long sentences myself, so this is something I'm working on in my own writing.
• Your use of reference templates is really excellent, above and beyond most editors. I recommend checking out the Template:sfn template as a possible replacement for the Template:rp template. Either is fine but I find rp clutters the inline citations a bit. With sfn you can have a Bibliography with your most important sources in a list, and then you just link to them with the sfn. Tiny bit tidier, but ultimately that is personal preference.
• I'm very impressed with your process for improving these articles. Enlisting the support of other editors in a "pre-GA" phase is an extremely productive way to collaborate on improving an article.
• If this GA review felt fast, that's because the article was in really good condition when I began. It's a credit to your embrace of collaboration when editing.
• I'd also like to shout out Marshelec for contributing and mentoring the development of this page.

Once again, excellent work. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 01:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 01:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.