Talk:African art in Western collections

	This article was reviewed by member(s) of WikiProject Articles for creation. The project works to allow users to contribute quality articles and media files to the encyclopedia and track their progress as they are developed. To participate, please visit the project page for more information.Articles for creationWikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creationTemplate:WikiProject Articles for creationAfC
	This article was accepted on 1 November 2013 by reviewer SarahStierch (talk · contribs).

African diaspora Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of African diaspora on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.African diasporaWikipedia:WikiProject African diasporaTemplate:WikiProject African diasporaAfrican diaspora
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Museums Low‑importance

	museums portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Museums, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of museums on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MuseumsWikipedia:WikiProject MuseumsTemplate:WikiProject MuseumsMuseums
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Visual arts

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Visual arts, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of visual arts on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Visual artsWikipedia:WikiProject Visual artsTemplate:WikiProject Visual artsvisual arts

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 October 2020 and 25 November 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sophiegrindon.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looted African art in Western Collections

This article is well detailed but I believe it could do with a change of tone through switching up the vocabulary. For example, the word "looted" is not used enough despite the fact that a lot of these artefacts were in fact stolen by the countries where these museums reside. The current tone suggests that these artefacts were acquired justifiably. For example, the British Museum section states that the Benin Bronzes of Nigeria were "seized" by the British Army rather than stolen or looted. This provides connotations that the British had reasonable justification to take these artefacts whereas they were in fact stolen. The article would benefit largely from minor changes such as these. (unsigned)

Yes a lot of people straight from Twitter feel that sort of thing these days. In fact very few African artefacts were seized, looted or stolen. The great majority were bought, traded, received as gifts, or excavated. Johnbod (talk) 00:43, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not just Twitter: for example, the Report on the restitution of African cultural heritage from November 2018, commissioned by the French government (Here's an archived version in English, since the original website is unfortunately down).

From the very first page, we have some quotes that suggest otherwise:

“…We pilfer from the Africans under the pretext of teaching others how to love them and get to know their culture, that is, when all is said and done, to train even more ethnographers, so they can head off to encounter them and ‘love and pilfer’ from them as well.”

– Michel Leiris, Letter to his wife, September 19, 1931. (Michel Leiris, Miroir d’Afrique, Edited and Annotated by Jean Jamin, Paris: Gallimard, 1996, p. 204, note)

And also...

“The conservation of culture has saved the various African peoples from the attempts at erasing the history and soul of Africa’s peoples […] and if it [culture] binds humans together, it also impels progress. This is the reason why Africa has gone to such great lengths and taken such care in recovering its cultural heritage, in defending its personality and tending to the flourishing of new branches of its culture.”

– "Manifeste culturel panafricain”, Souffles, 16-17, 4th trimester, 1969, January-February 1970, p.9 and p.13 XTheBedrockX (talk) 21:20, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see these adressing "looting". "We pilfer from the Africans under the pretext of teaching others how to love them and get to know their culture" seems very compatible with "The great majority were bought, traded, received as gifts, or excavated" above. Johnbod (talk) 04:40, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To "pilfer" something means to Steal something, and "loot" is defined as a synonym for "pilfer." The Noun versions of pilfer ("pilferage" and "pilfering") as also considered synonyms for looting.

Maybe we shouldn't play semantics here when it comes to this stuff, considering stuff like the Benin Bronzes, Rosetta Stone, and a whole host of Ethiopian artifacts, including the Obelisk of Axum, are artifacts considered to be looted, even putting aside the fact that antiques taken from illicit trade have a questionable level of provenance.

Saying "a great majority" were taken legitimately is not an Uncontroversial claim, is what I'm trying to say. XTheBedrockX (talk) 06:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it's not uncontroversial, as it goes against the fashionable narrative, it just happens to be correct. Very little sub-Saharan African art was brought back by governments, though the main exceptions are famous (and usually much more spectacular than the thousands of run of the mill small items ethnologists are interested in). If you really think "looted" and "pilfered" are synonyms, let's substitute the 2nd for the 1st everywhere"! Johnbod (talk) 16:18, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]