Talk:Adonis

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Archives

Archive 1

Aryballos

i originally came to the Talk page to note that an aryballos doesn't have just one shape, and an aryballos and a lekythos can function in the same way, so the caption for the first image seemed a bit clunky. but in reading through the other comments (to see if the caption had already been addressed) i saw some of the same issues being raised repeatedly, so i read the whole article and thought i'd try to clear it up by rewriting to make what were opinions into "possible facts." it's a bit weasel-y, but until there are actual sources cited here that can be checked, it seems better than leaving obvious opinions stated as facts. i also edited the picture's caption.Colbey84 (talk) 17:02, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

meant to add--i changed the section "Cultural references to the rebirth mythology" to simply "Cultural references" because the few cultural references given as examples didn't refer to the rebirth of Adonis. Shelley's work talked about "rebirth" only in the sense that a person doesn't die but instead "moves on" (or whatever). it certainly wasn't using the Adonis myth as a life-death-rebirth meme as it was often used/portrayed/believed in the mystery religions--that of sacrifice/death and rebirth, in the flesh, in the world. i know this article made several attempts to put Adonis in that category, but there weren't any sources cited to back that up (beyond the opinion of an individual, and even those sources aren't properly cited). i have no idea what the Syrian poet's work is like.Colbey84 (talk) 17:25, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just because all information in the lede should reappear in the body—

—doesn't mean that all the information in the body needs to be stuffed into the lede. (Coming here rather than turn this into an edit war, Katolophyromai.) I genuinely thought, scanning down the page, that some editor must have mistakenly pasted the text twice instead of once. The lede could still note the existence of the cult of Adonis without going into the minutiae of the rites, which are more appropriate to the body text.— Preceding unsigned comment added by VeryRarelyStable (talk • contribs) 06:51, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@VeryRarelyStable: I agree that, given the state of the rest of the article at that time, the previous lede may not have been entirely appropriate. Based upon Katolophyromai recent edits, and edit summaries, Katolophyromai seems to agree also. I suggest we reserve judgement until Katolophyromai finishes with his current edits. If at that point we are still dissatisfied with the lede, we can discuss the issue here. Paul August ☎ 15:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just so you guys know, it may be several weeks or even more than a month before I am completely done with my current revisions. –Katolophyromai (talk) 17:07, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine with me. As an aside, taking a brief look at the article, I was surprised not to see some mention of Adonis' occurence in the Catalogue of Women, see Hesiod F106, F107 Most (pp. 176, 177) = F139 Merkelbach-West). Paul August ☎ 19:28, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Paul August: Thanks for bringing that up. I will make sure to add mention of that. There are still a lot of things that are missing from the body of this article that really ought to be here. --Katolophyromai (talk) 20:47, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is he a mortal or a god?

The article mostly discusses him as mortal, but he is categorized as a god. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:52, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merger discussion for Adonis

An article that you have been involved in editing—Adonis—has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. Louie (talk) 00:55, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Louie (talk) 00:55, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Greek god?

Given that his name wasn't Greek, that the cult itself wasn't Greek, that the origins weren't Greek, how is this an appropriate summary? Anactoriaa (talk) 17:43, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is a general interest encyclopedia, the lead and overview of an article are going to follow what is considered standard by other third-party sources, and most tertiary sources identify the subject with Greek mythology (e.g. dicts, encycs). The origins can be reserved for later in the lead or body. Gotitbro (talk) 13:24, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Revert image

Hi (I should think of something else to start these with lol) I think that the old image is better. The new image is positioned in such a way that makes it confusing. Not only that but the lighting also makes it confusing and the background is confusing as well. The old image looks better overall. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 19:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@NebY @Paul August @Michael Aurel. I tagged you guys because I need someone's opinion on it. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 19:54, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why not ping the editor who changed the image and discuss it with them? NebY (talk) 11:10, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't think of that. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 22:50, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No Semitic counterpart??

From the article :"there is no trace of a Semitic deity connected with Adonis or a parallel counterpart." Is this not blatantly false? Also from the article: " most modern scholars consider the story of Aphrodite and Adonis to be derived from a Levantine [my emphasis] version of the earlier Mesopotamian myth of Inanna (Ishtar) and Dumuzid (Tammuz)." Tammuz is the Semitic form of Dumuzid. Tammuz is mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh, a Semitic text. https://uruk-warka.dk/Gilgamish/The%20Epic%20of%20Gilgamesh.pdf Tammuz is mentioned in the Old Testament, also a Semitic text. https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/8-14.htm Bruceman138 (talk) 07:30, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. This is undue weight given to Burkert. POV-pushing is an endemic problem here on WP.--Berig (talk) 16:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both Jerome and Origen who lived in what is today Israel identify Adonis with Tammuz. If you check the sources you see that the phrasing is based on a selective reference to a polemic text.--Berig (talk) 16:58, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I move the problematic text here: "although there is no trace of a Semitic deity connected with Adonis or a parallel counterpart.^[1]^[2]". If we look at the source it says: "See Burkert 1985: 176f., arguing against Kretschmer, e.g. Kretschmer Glotta 7 (1916): 29ff. and Kretschmer Glotta 10 (1920): 235f." Selecting a piece of information that is clearly polemic is what is called "cherry-picking", i.e. selecting the specific bias that the editor wants to have in the article, pretending it to be uncontroversial. To make things worse, the editor also added the source of the source making it look to the casual reader like two different sources backing up the same piece of information.-Berig (talk) 10:02, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Beekes, Robert S.P. (2009) Etymological Dictionary of Greek, Brill. p. 23. "Supposed to be a loan from Semitic (Hebr. adon 'Lord'). But no cult connected with this name is known in the Semitic world, nor a myth parallel to that in Greece".
^ Burkert, Walter (1991). Greek Religion: Archaic and Classical. Wiley. p. 177. For all that, there is in Semitic tradition no known cult connected with this title which corresponds exactly to the Greek cult, to say nothing of a counterpart to the Greek Adonis myth.

[:0-1] Beekes, Robert S.P. (2009) Etymological Dictionary of Greek, Brill. p. 23. "Supposed to be a loan from Semitic (Hebr. adon 'Lord'). But no cult connected with this name is known in the Semitic world, nor a myth parallel to that in Greece".

[2] Burkert, Walter (1991). Greek Religion: Archaic and Classical. Wiley. p. 177. For all that, there is in Semitic tradition no known cult connected with this title which corresponds exactly to the Greek cult, to say nothing of a counterpart to the Greek Adonis myth.

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