Talk:Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi

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A news item involving Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 27 October 2019.

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WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS

The article Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:

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This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 2 times. The weeks in which this happened:

November 15 to 21, 2015 (18th)
October 27 to November 2, 2019 (1st)

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RfC: Should the statement about allegations that Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi was 'Jewish and a Mossad agent'be kept as is in the article?

There is a statement at the end of the first paragraph of this article that reads: "Some journalists have alleged that al-Baghdadi was Jewish and affiliated with Mossad." Four sources are listed for this statement. However, while some of the sources reference the allegation that Al-Baghdadi was a Mossad agent, none of the sources support or even mention the allegation that he was Jewish. In light of this, what should be done with this statement? RoughEndofthePineapple (talk) 17:52, 18 November 2022 (UTC) (RoughEndofthePineapple, 12:52PM, 11/18/2022)[reply]

Remove. Sourcing is inadequate for such an extraordinary claim. If retained, it should not be in the lead. (Summoned by bot) Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:35, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Remove from the lead unless higher-quality sources are provided. Definitely remove the statement that he was Jewish (which none of the other sources say); the statement that he worked for the Mossad, while technically reported in the cited sources, is treated as a conspiracy theory in the higher-quality ones, while I don't think the Daily Trust or the Janta Ka Reporter are high-quality enough to treat it as leadworthy. It might be worth covering as a claim made by Iran in the body, but it is probably not leadworthy and should be more clearly attributed; we should also directly cover the sources calling it a conspiracy theory or saying it is false. --Aquillion (talk) 20:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Remove [article] from Haaretz mentions the claim which has been perpetuated by senior members of the Iranian government, whose views in recent time have widely been considered to be fringe and unsubstantiated. I might be in favour of adding a line somewhere in the article (but not in the introductory paragraph) stating "members of the Iranian government have alleged that al-Baghdadi was Jewish and a member of Mossad, however, such claims have remained unsubstantiated". I should also note that if you look at User:Atiqul Islam Sakib recent contributions, they have been involved in several edit wars where they have tried to push unsourced conspiracy theory narratives. SBA19 (talk) 00:31, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Remove – The sentence: "Some journalists have alleged that al-Baghdadi was Jewish and affiliated with Mossad.[16][17][18][19]" should be removed from the lead, since it gives undue weight to a false rumour. Also, for clarity in regards to the sources:

Source 16 is a reprint of an article from Infowars which is an unreliable source. The article only states that he is a Mossad agent and does not state that he is Jewish. This unreliable source should be removed.

Source 17 is an article by Haaretz which only states that Iran claims that the Islamic State group is a creation of Mossad. The article does not mention anything about al-Baghadadi being Jewish.

Source 18 is an article which claims based on a UN report that Israel is supporting Islamic State. If you go to the UN document, it does not support this claim. This unreliable source should be removed.

Source 19 is an article by Politifact which disproves the rumor that Islamic State was created by Israel/Mossad. This source can be kept to disprove the rumor that al-Baghdadi is a Mossad agent.

If the sentence is added to the body of the article, it needs to be made clear, as stated in the Politfact article, that this is a false rumour, which countries like Iran, have been promoting for propaganda purposes with no evidence. --Guest2625 (talk) 09:43, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Unless there's some WP:RS to support this claim it should be removed. Nemov (talk) 14:22, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Remove Not only is this an unverified claim, it's a refuted conspiracy theory (p.226) pushed by Iran and websites like Veterans Today (pg.86-87). Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 03:02, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

If I am reading the article history correctly, this was removed once and then re-added; the edit summary says that the edit restoring it was adding sources, but it did not. Leaping straight to an RFC with no discussion seems premature - obviously it should be left out without sources, but we should try and get a sense of what's up first. @Atiqul Islam Sakib:, who restored the text - did you intend to restore it without adding sources? Do you have any sources? --Aquillion (talk) 20:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did discuss this issue with the user who put in this information-but on their account talk page, so apologies if that was the wrong forum. While I admit I did not start off in the most diplomatic way and assumed anti-semitism, I tried to re-engage in a more constructive way afterward. The latest reply I sent him was to ask him to remove the part of the statement at issue that states that 'sources state that Abu-Bakr Al-Baghdadi was Jewish', because none of the sources state that or even reference that idea. He has not responded since.

I suppose it would be good to let him present his side, but if there is no explanation forthcoming, is there a way to ensure that whatever is done with the statement at issue, (remaining as is, moved down the page, put in as a footnote, language edited, or removed) it isn't subject to constant future changes/ edit wars? RoughEndofthePineapple (talk) 05:07, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to go ahead and remove the RfC template from this discussion: the content at-issue appears to have already been removed, there's a strong consensus against it so far in this discussion. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 16:51, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Suicide vs. Suicide Bombing

It appears that the subject of this article committed suicide during an operation to apprehend him for his criminal activities, not during a suicide attack/bombing. It would be inappropriate to conflate his death such an act as it does not meet the Wikipedia definition of a suicide attack/bombing, as he had no military, civilian, political, or infrastructure target. He did not choose to kill himself, using an explosive device, until he was cornered and had no means to further his escape. He did not attempt to attack his pursuers prior to detonating his device, implying his intent was purely to deny the possibility of being apprehended and held accountable for his crimes.

I am starting this discussion as an editor has been repeatedly revising edits to correct the article, and giving no suitable explanation, and been spamming accounts with accusations of "edit war" on their accounts, but has refused to create a discussion on the topic themselves. RubberJackal (talk) 14:35, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The vast majority of RS refer to his death as a suicide bombing.[1][2][3][4][5] Please refrain from repeatedly adding your own WP:OR to various articles. Skitash (talk) 14:40, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your cited sources describe his death as a suicide, using a suicide vest/bomb, not as a "suicide bombing." Please elaborate on your justification to doctor your sources? RubberJackal (talk) 14:53, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]