Talk:Abdullah I of Jordan

Untitled

From the fifth paragraph, it's not clear whether Abdullah was shot at Al-Aqsa or the Dome of the Rock. I seem to think it was Al-Aqsa, but I'm not entirely sure - any ideas? --DMG413 15:56, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

A Guardian article says "The assassin, who had hidden behind the main gate of the mosque, shot at close range" which means the mosque itself. The Dome of the Rock is a shrine, not a mosque. A possible confusion is that the whole complex is often called Al-Aqsa or Al-Aqsa Mosque, but in that case there are multiple entrances. ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 02:29, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Prince Hussein Ibn Talal was shot

In the article : " Prince Hussein Ibn Talal was at his side and grappled with the assailant until he was shot himself"

Hussein did not grapple , he was staning next to his grandfather and he was shot too.

To answer the above question, in all the reading I did it says it was Al-Aqsa.

Duna Masri

• It still says in that paragraph that "When entering the Al Aqsa Mosque Abdullah was shot dead by Mustapha Shukri Usho .... Abdullah was in Jerusalem to give a eulogy at the funeral and was shot while attending Friday prayers at the Dome of the Rock." --DMG413 19:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

You do know that they're both the same place? 193.108.134.34 19:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

• • No, they're actually two different mosques on the Temple Mount. The Dome of the Rock is roughly in the center of the area and Al Aqsa Mosque is on the southern edge. --DMG413 02:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the Dome of the Rock is not a mosque per se. It has no niche, for example. It is a monument, a covering for the rock on which Abraham made his sacrifice of his son.Scott Adler 09:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, they're still two separate buildings and the article isn't clear on the matter. --DMG413 (talk) 00:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Friday congregation prayers are held in the much larger Al Aqsa, which holds 5000 people, not the Dome of the Rock. The picture at the foot of the main article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Abdullah_leaving_Al_Aqsa.jpg shows Abdullah, and a large crowd, leaving Al Aqsa a few weeks before, following Friday prayers. I have amended the article accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.3.255.103 (talk) 10:16, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Birthplace Missing

Duna MasriZ The Article does not mention where Abdullah I of Jordan was born. It might have been Arabia

Who was the assassin?

The article currently mentions two names, "Usho" and "Ashu" I believe. They have different first names. Which one is proper?Scott Adler 09:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

So this probably is caused by translation into English, in which vowels are often interchangeable. For example Muhammed vs. Mohammed--neither one is technically wrong, they are just different spellings. dynam001 04:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dynamo152 (talk • contribs)

Churchill's Gratitude

In The Second World War, Winston Churchill remarks that Britain was "almost friendless" in the latter part of 1940. But in a nearby footnote he recalls that "King Abdullah of Transjordan remained our staunch ally." Cranston Lamont 22:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Alleged Zionist-Hashemite collusion in 1947

I like your ideas and certainly agree with you that Karsh's analysis deserves a space in this article. However, I'd like to point out that Karsh seems to be responding to Shlaim while this article quotes another historian named Eugene L. Rogan. Granted that Rogan edited a book with Shlaim, but the work quoted is all Rogan's. I think Karsh's analysis would better fit the article if it were rewritten not as a response to Shlaim (or Rogan) but as a seperate analysis unrelated to the New Historians' view. I also hope you don't mind me cutting out that long blockquote since it had less to do with Abdullah's life and more to do with the scholarly dispute about Abdullah's life. --GHcool 22:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

In the best book of the arabic-jews war in 1948 called "O jerusalem", says that Abdullah had a good relationship with the jews people. Most of his friends were jews. But the pression and his dreams of having more territories drived him into the war. For more information read this book called "O jerusalem" that is very good

King Abdullah I was a good friend of the Zionists and he never encroached on the lands that the UN had given to Israel, King Abdullah I only was interested in trying to make the West Bank and East Jerusalem part of his pro-Western "Hashemite" Jordanian monarchy. King Abdullah I was especially close to the Israelis as they both greatly hated Mufti Hajj Amin al-Husseini of Palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Historylover4 (talk • contribs) 00:45, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Wives

Was he married to all three of them at once, or did he divorce and re-marry twice? The article should probably say. Tad Lincoln (talk) 21:55, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Split

I propose to split the section on assassination into a separate article Assassination of Abdullah I of Jordan, similar to the case of Assassination of Anwar Sadat article (in addition to article on Anwar Sadat).GreyShark (dibra) 19:41, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. This is fine the way it is. It isn't very long in this article anyway. --GHcool (talk) 22:19, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Article timeline or layout

I have been running into some articles that place "end of life" sections, sub-sections, or such mentioning in other sections or subsections, concerning "Death", "Death and burial", "Assassination", "Final years and death", or some other title reflecting end of life, then adding body content that is out of timeline such as "Marriages and children" or "Family". In a story line, movie plot, or book, lacking some "flashback", it is not natural to present that someone died then got married and had children.

Normally I would just correct the layout but this is a C-class article, probably being "watched", so I figured I would bring it up first. Usually a person would get married, have children, then die. I realize sometimes a person can have children after death but I imagine that would be an "exception to the rule". I did bring this up at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Layout##Biographies: Section order referring to "end of life" and Talk:Sherman Hoar#"Death" section.

The "Marriages and children" section should be placed before the "Assassination" section. This becomes real apparent since the timeline is that he was assassinated on "20 July 1951", but his marriages, as well as his children's birth, preceded his death. Otr500 (talk) 04:35, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

He's a political figure who had remarkable influence on history, does his wife and children really add up for a section. How about a section "Personal life", including things like his family, personal hobbies (I once read that poetry was his thing). Makeandtoss (talk) 00:20, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I am sure a personal life would be in order in such an article. "IF" the section on assassination was placed below it. Otr500 (talk) 04:39, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Sure but why Makeandtoss (talk) 10:24, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

My discussion has less to do with specific article content as opposed to article layout. I am confused as to the apparent question of why? "IF" this supposed question is in response to the statement, "IF" the section on assassination was placed below it.", being and meaning "the order", this can be found immediately above our exchange, "The "Marriages and children" section should be placed before the "Assassination" section.", and the seemingly plain reasoning that did not seem confusing. I will, however, attempt to simplify it: Man is born, goes through life, dies (or is assassinated), then gets married (three times) and has children. While a man can arguably have children after death, I am not sure of any scenarios where there could be a posthumous wedding, or in this case three, that would certainly have to include a posthumous divorce. It would stand to reason (to me) that a timeline would naturally dictate a certain order for a natural flow of events. I assume that life, in whatever present state being discussed (Biography: A detailed description of a person's life), is finalized by death, thus life events concerning a person is also subjected to such finalization as dying, with very few exceptions. A "story" (or article) usually has basic elements, 1)- Exposition, 2)- Rising action, 3)- Climax, 4)- Falling action, and 5)- Resolution. It seems logical that article life content, such as marriage and children (part of a biography) should precede an "end of life" event or "resolution" in the main body of the article. This means that a man getting married three times (and having children) after being assassinated is a backwards timeline. He died, leaving a remarkable influence on history, end of story, now we can move on to the addendum or appendix to the article. Otr500 (talk) 11:57, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I meant why exactly before the section....... Makeandtoss (talk) 12:18, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Actually take a look at Gamal Abdul Nasser/John F.Kennedy Makeandtoss (talk) 12:22, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Makeandtoss, The above articles you referenced, Gamal Abdul Nasser (a Good article) and John F. Kennedy (a C- class article) both reflect exactly what I am discussing. If you look at the first example, with the Personal life section. In that section there is an event that is considered an "end of life" and considered in the main content body of the article and not as an appendix. The next section, Writings, is an appendage.

The second example, has an Assassination section with a Funeral sub-section. The Administration, Cabinet, and judicial appointments 1961–63 section is an appendix. The very next section Image, social life, and family is out of order as it presents life events that are usually presented earlier in an article especially concerning things that happen before death.

I randomly looked at 17 of 109 "Featured Article" biographies and all 17 were presented in a chronological order with an "end of life" event (death by whatever cause), listed under various section names, as the last part of the main body of the article before appendices. I looked at "Good Articles" such as John von Neumann, John C. Calhoun that contains a "Personal life" section listed 2nd and appendices following a "Death and burial" section, Thomas Jefferson is a "B-class" article that contains a "Retirement and later years" section with "Final days, death, and burial" subsection followed by appendices.

It does not matter the name of a section (reflecting death), or where it is presented in the main body of an article as policy is clear, but there is natural and other article evidence, especially better ones, that list a death event before appendices which does follow a chronological and natural order. I am just trying to present that it has to seem unnatural, as mentioned above, that an article presents: "Person is born, goes through life (the story), then dies, however it happens. After this, the dead person gets married and has children. I looked at 27 of the approximately 109 "Featured articles" and all of them reflected a chronological order of a life story. Elvis Presley (featured article) covers all of this in a Life and career section then carries on with the rest of the article. The point that I am making with this article, even with a "Personal life" section, is that it is unnatural and out of sequence with no explanation or expectation for a form of death to be presented then things concerning life. Besides all that, what would it hurt to have personal and family information, or a personal and family section, above a death or assassination section? Otr500 (talk) 01:49, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Ok Makeandtoss (talk) 09:54, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Assassin

I corrected the name of the assassin, which appears to have an ending "u" vowel according to the works I consulted. Also the article omits mentioning that he was shot dead at the scene. Coretheapple (talk) 16:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Nationality of Mustafa Shukri Ashu?

Do any contemporary sources identify Mustafa Shukri Ashu as Palestinian? That label is an anachronism.2A00:11C0:9:996:0:0:1:1 (talk) 12:13, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

"New Enc. Britannica": often quoted, but no access w/o subscription. Other source needed!

"New Enc. Britannica" p. 22: no access w/o subscription for most quoted source here. We need another source, otherwise editors cannot freely expand or otherwise work on the article. In Jordan-related articles there are apparently more inaccurate citations than elsewhere, either very vague or outright wrong; this article is much better, but accepting things on trust is not an option. Arminden (talk) 14:30, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

@Arminden: The "url-access=subscription" field in the citation template is to indicate a paywall. For free access on registration like here use "url-access=registration". All you need to do is register at archive.org for free and then you can "borrow" the book to get full access for a period (14 days in this case). I recommend that you register as you will get immediate access to many useful sources you couldn't see before. The problem in this case is that EB is a multi-volume work and the url goes to the wrong volume. Here is a correct url (page 22 of volume 1). It says he was born 1882 in Mecca died July 20, 1951 in Jerusalem. I don't like using tertiary sources like this, so I'll check the date in a newspaper of the day. Zero^talk 01:43, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Date of death confirmed. Zero^talk 02:27, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Thank you, that was useful - for this edit and in the future. Arminden (talk) 13:22, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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• Creation-of-transjordan jordan king-abdullah 1937 318px.webp

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Broken paragraph

After conquering the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, at the end of the war, King Abdullah tried to suppress any trace of a Palestinian Arab national identity. Abdullah annexed the conquered Palestinian territory and granted the Palestinian Arab residents in Jordan and Jordanian citizenship. In 1949, Abdullah entered secret peace talks with Israel, including at least five with Moshe Dayan, the Military Governor of West Jerusalem and other senior Israelis. News of the negotiations provoked a strong reaction from other Arab States and Abdullah agreed to discontinue the meetings in return for Arab acceptance of the West Bank's annexation into Jordan.

Problems: (1) The chronology is backwards; the annexation was in 1950 so after 1949. (2) The last sentence is rubbish as no Arab state except Iraq accepted the annexation. (3) "Palestinian Arab" is anachronistic. (4) Second sentence is ungrammatical. Zero^talk 04:43, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

"After conquering the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, at the end of the war, King Abdullah tried to suppress any trace of a Palestinian Arab national identity." was added here. The Karsh book says "Upon occupying the West Bank during the 1948 war King Abdallah moved quickly to erase all traces of corporate Palestinian identity." as part of a para discussing the dispersal of the Palestinians after 48. Not really sure what corporate means. "Palestinian Arab" appears to be an editorial description. And as you say the chronology is wrong. The Hiro dictionary does say "The talks culminated in a draft non-aggression pact between the two countries in early 1950. Once again the secret leaked. When pressured by fellow Arab leaders to scuttle his unilateral peace plan with Israel he agreed, provided they let him annex Arab Palestine. They did so. Formal annexation followed in April and changed the character of Abdullah’s realm." Selfstudier (talk) 10:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok, but it's a rather poor tertiary source that doesn't even give references. What does "let him" mean, anyway? I'm pretty sure that the Arab League never approved it. Zero^talk 14:02, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

From that Nevo source "Nevertheless, in return for the suspension of contacts with Israel, Abdallah extracted a high price: a de facto recognition of the annexation of the West Bank which the Arab states had thus far refused to give. In the summer of 1950 the Arab League adopted a resolution allowing the Jordanian Government to declare... that the annexation of the part of Palestine in question was a measure necessitated by practical considerations, that Jordan would hold that part on trust until a final settlement of the Palestine question was reached and that Jordan would accept in regard to it whatever might be unanimously decided by the other member states." Also see Jordanian annexation of the West Bank.Selfstudier (talk) 16:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I remember that now. The article should clarify the ambiguity of the decision, which effectively approved annexation without saying so. Zero^talk 03:05, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

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Alternative source for Abdullah's Asssasin .

Seeing a contemporary source is used ; it's best to cite more reputable newspapers than random ones that may not capture the image more comprehensively .

There is this Headline from the Washington Post , confirming the Lead of the Article that his assassin was motivated by Palestinian Arab separatism .

https://archive.org/details/per_washington-post_1951-07-21_27428/mode/2up?q=%22palestinian+arab%22

The relevant extractions are below :

"The assassin was identified as Mustapha Shukri Asho , 21 , a tailor in the Old City of Jersulem (....) Asho was said to be a member of the "Al Jihad Al Mokdas" organization , which demanded a separate Palestinian Arab state rather than its engrossment in the Jordanian kingdom (....) British sources reported the assassin was a known terrorist and former employee of Haj Amin el Husseini , former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ."

This seems to be a better alternative source than the current newspaper , and reveals more about his organization (Muslim brotherhood ? ..the source never mentioned this "Al-Jihad" being an Islamist militia ; that's an arbitrary addendum from an editor).

Hope this proposal is taken into consideration by the editors. 188.55.91.234 (talk) 23:31, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Abdullah's editorial

Abdullah's November 1947 essay in The American Magazine entitled "As the Arabs see the Jews" is quoted in a sidebar without comment. This lends Wikipedia's voice to the essay, which is inappropriate.

Part of the quote is "With very minor exceptions, Jews have lived for many centuries in the Middle East, in complete peace and friendliness with their Arab neighbours." The phrase "very minor exceptions" is doing enormous lifting here. The Ottoman Empire was, in modern parlance, an apartheid state. Separate courts enforced separate laws on Muslims and non-Muslims, the later of which could not testify against a Muslim.

Wikipedia's own article on the History of the Jews under Muslim rule says "Though second-class citizens and often persecuted, these non-Muslim groups were nevertheless accorded certain rights and protections as "people of the book." Can people be "often persecuted" while living in "complete peace and friendliness"?

Many scholars have made the argument that Jews were better off in the Middle East than in Europe, as well as Christians better off in the Middle East than Muslims were in Europe. This is a valid argument, but is not the one Abdullah is making. His main idea is that the West should take in the Jewish refugees from Europe, not Palestine. The part that is quoted in this Wikipedia article is a side point he makes to say that he isn't anti-Jewish, he's anti-immigration.

So the quote is historically inaccurate, adjacent to his thesis, and not connected to anything in the article. It should be removed.ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 11:41, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to replace the quote with a different one from the same editorial, one that isn't factually controversial.ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 22:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand the concept of quotes. Quotes are attributed to their author and have nothing to do with WP voice, no matter how controversial it is, factually or otherwise. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:26, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

But our encyclopedia is choosing to quote him at length, which suggests this is factual material. It isn't. Abdullah isn't an expert in history, nor is he an unbiased source for info about the Middle East. He's the subject of the article and his life should be explained. I don't see how quoting factually wrong material from an editorial written in an effort to gain Western support for Transjordanian annexation of Palestine is appropriate for this article or an encylopedia in general.ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 07:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It is perfectly appropriate and normal for biographical articles to quote the opinions of the subject. More generally, it is normal for articles to quote the opinions of major players. The opinion is attributed to its author, not to us. Incidentally, since the topic involves the Arab-Israeli conflict, you are restricted from editing it; see WP:ECR. Zero^talk 07:36, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

My objection is not that it is an opinion, but that it is presented as fact. It's also not relevant to the article. It is soapboxing. Abdullah wrote the article to make his case that he should annex all of Palestine once the British Mandate ends. He used hyperbole in statements like that Jews lived "in complete peace and friendliness with their Arab neighbours."

Why do we highlight this? It isn't in a section about Opinions or Positions of his. He isn't a historian. The editorial didn't become well-known. The space should be used for something that aids the reader, rather than misleads them.ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 02:29, 23 November 2024 (UTC)