Talk:1920 Czechoslovak parliamentary election

Requested move 12 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Although the votes were roughly split, I found the arguments in favour of the move to be significantly stronger. The question is essentially a WP:COMMONNAME one – which of the two options is most used in reliable sources? As such, references to straight google hits were of little weight because they include mostly unreliable sources. Likewise, how it is generally referred to in speech was not particularly relevant. Ngrams and the British National Corpus, both of which clearly favoured Czechoslovak were of significant importance. The only strong argument made for Czechoslovakian was that The Guardian slightly prefers it, however this was outweighed by the results of the Ngrams and BNC, and the fact that Encyclopaedia Brittanica (encyclopedias are specifically encouraged as a useful source at COMMONNAME) uses Czechoslovak. Jenks24 (talk) 00:15, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

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• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1920 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1920
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1925 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1925
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1929 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1929
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1935 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1935
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1946 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1946
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1948 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1948
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1954 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1954
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1960 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1960
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1964 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1964
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1971 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1971
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1976 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1976
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1981 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1981
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1986 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1986
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1990 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1990
• Czechoslovakian parliamentary election, 1992 → Czechoslovak parliamentary election, 1992
• Czechoslovakian peace pact referendum, 1951 → Czechoslovak peace pact referendum, 1951

– The correct demonym is Czechoslovak, not Czechoslovakian (similarly Slovak vs Slovakian, the name of the country is the Slovak Republic, not the Slovakian Republic). Although the incorrect version is commonly used, trusted sources such Encyclopaedia Brittanica use the correct form only. The correct version can be also found in several wikipedia articles such as List of adjectivals and demonyms for former regions. --Relisted. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:34, 20 May 2015 (UTC) Martin.Jares (talk) 21:20, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support all – It is about time that this error got corrected. The proposed titles are not only the only correct titles, but they are also more WP:CONCISE. RGloucester — ☎ 21:33, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose all To claim "Czechoslovakian" is "incorrect" or an "error" is completely untrue; the word is in the Oxford English Dictionary and is more common than "Czechoslovak" (703,000 Ghits for Czechoslovakian opposed to 597,000 for Czechoslovak). Czechoslovak is also the wrong option here, as it is used more specifically to describe the people of the country, rather than things related to the country itself. Number 57 08:58, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

It is indeed true that the form "Czechoslovakian" is quite common and widely used and that it has become part of the English language. The fact that it is listed in the Oxford English Dictionary confirms it. But I am not sure that we can draw a distinction that "Czechoslovak" relates to the people while "Czechoslovakian" relates to the country. I think one would need to use "Czechoslovakia" or "Czechoslovakia's" in that case, like for example Czechoslovakia national football team. "Czechoslovak" and "Czechoslovakian" are in fact used interchangeably by some, you can even encounter for example "Czechoslovakian Republic". The term "Czechoslovak" is clearly preferred for all official purposes, for example the Cyprus-Czechoslovakia Tax Treaty or Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye (1919) (full text here) which says "the Czecho-Slovak Republic". "Czechoslovakian" seems to be more part of the English vernacular rather than the standard or academic English. That is why I think "Czechoslovak" should be the preferred version here. Martin.Jares (talk) 13:57, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

We don't use "official" words when more common ("vernacular") ones are available – see WP:COMMONNAME. Czechoslovakian is clearly part of standard English, which is why people like myself use it. The naming of the football team article is wholly irrelevant to this conversation as they follow a defined format of country name + national football team (e.g. England national football team. Number 57 14:03, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry if my previous comments implied that I considered "Czechoslovak election" somehow more official than "Czechoslovakian election". I used the reference to official sources just to illustrate that although "Czechoslovakian" is commonly used, it is not as "good English" as "Czechoslovak" because more effort is usually put into official documents to use the proper language (I illustrated the same point by the Encyclopaedia Brittanica link in my first comment). I am also not sure that "Czechoslovakian" can be described as more common. The British National Corpus (the 86,800 most common words are available here) reports "Czechoslovak" with a ranking of 16,726 while "Czechoslovakian" has a ranking of 31,204, so "Czechoslovak" is clearly more common. Martin.Jares (talk) 15:37, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

You can't say that one is "not as good English" as the other when they are both in the Oxford English Dictionary. I appreciate you may not be a native English speaker, so perhaps you haven't experienced it, but my experience is that I don't think I have ever heard someone use the word "Czechoslovak" in speech; it is not a natural English word in the way that "Czechoslovakian" is, largely because the common way of forming demonyms for countries whose name ends with the letter "a" is simply to add an "n" on the end (e.g. Angolan, Austrian etc). Number 57 16:01, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Number 57: Utter tosh. I've never heard "Czechoslovakian" in my life. Not only is it awkward and long, but it is also incorrect. The standard term is "Czechoslovak", which is a combination of "Czech" and "Slovak". Neither of the demonyms that "Czechoslovak" is derived from use the "-ian" ending. There is no "standard" way to form such adjectives. They are all over the place. Your WP:OR about how they formed is irrelevant. What's more, your canard about the commonality of "Czechoslovakian" is nothing more than a canard. Please take a look at this Google Ngrams chart. "Czechoslovak" has always been the dominant adjective for this country. RGloucester — ☎ 01:48, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

It's clearly not incorrect if it's in the OED. Number 57 08:38, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

The OED catalogues word usage by people, not correctness. Czechoslovak is the standard and more commonly used form, and must be used here. It is also more WP:CONCISE. You've got no legs to stand on. RGloucester — ☎ 15:16, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

But as I've shown above, Czechoslovakian is more commonly used in the real world. As far as I'm concerned, this is a fairly sturdy leg. Number 57 15:40, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

You've not shown anything. In books, from the inception of the Czechoslovak idea until the dissolution and beyond, the term "Czechoslovak" has been the dominant adjective. It has always been significantly more common than "Czechoslovakian". I don't know what your problem is. The sources are clear. RGloucester — ☎ 16:17, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a problem - if it has "always been significantly more common", please explain the Ghit evidence above that shows Czechoslovakian as more common. Number 57 16:30, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Google hits are useless, as they are easily gamed, and contain huge amounts of non-RS rubbish. Ngrams, on the other hand, surveys generally reliable books. The Ngrams search shows that good sources have always overwhelmingly preferred "Czechoslovak". RGloucester — ☎ 19:27, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support While I don't think that "Czechoslovakian parliament..." is incorrect, "Czechoslovak parliament..." is, I think, more proper. See Ngrams for "Czechoslovakian parliament,Czechoslovak parliament,Czechoslovakian national,Czechoslovak national,Czechoslovakian elections,Czechoslovak elections" and for "Czechoslovakian,Czechoslovak". GregKaye 02:30, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support per nom and User:GregKaye. While from a descriptivist perspective "Czechoslovakian" might not be "incorrect", it rings a little awkward (like "Argentinian"). —  AjaxSmack  02:35, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Number 57; in this context "Czechoslovak" is awkward, while "Czechoslovakian" is using natural English form. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 04:22, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Not according to reliable English sources, which have always favoured "Czechoslovak". RGloucester — ☎ 17:01, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Weak oppose per Number 57's point that -akian is more common in English (UK) usage, though in this instance the short form is readily understood.Pincrete (talk) 21:19, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

65.94.43.89 Pincrete on what basis do you say that "Czechoslovakian" is a more natural / more common English? GregKaye 21:39, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I didn't say 'natural', but agree with No57 that such an addition to country/region name is fairly 'standard' (Scandinavia? Romania? Bosnia etc.). The more common usage is indicated by the slightly higher Google hits. Like Number 57, I would probably use and am used to hearing the shorter form for a person, but the longer for 'of the country', as is the case for several countries (as Briton, or Scot). But that of course is anecdotal and I already said, both forms are fairly readily understood.Pincrete (talk) 22:37, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

A content search on 'The Guardian' showed 257 hits for 'Czechoslovakian' as against 240 for 'Czechoslovak'. Having a quick look at usage, it was not necessarily the case that 'Czechoslovak' was used for people. So very slightly in favour of '-vakian' in a fairly literate environment.Pincrete (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. -akian is the common name in English. Calidum T|C 05:42, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support per GregKaye, who makes a good point. C679 14:47, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.