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Archive 1Archive 2

Vandalism

Resolved
 – fixed. thx for the heads up. Outsider80(User0529) (talk) 22:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Can somebody please delete that DANLE SUCKS! remark from the Portal. I tried to do it myself but couldn't find it on the edit section. --Heslopian (talk) 21:58, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Question regarding LGBT student activities and WP university webpages

I have a question for the community. My younger sister, a freshman at Syracuse University, recently tried to add some material to the wikipedia article about the school. She is a novice, and admittedly some of her edits were questionable, but I think her wanting to add something on the LGBT student center there I think is valid. She said it was to honor me, which I really appreciated. The problem is, there is an editor there who apparently feels he has an ownership stake in that page who has reversed essentially everything she wanted to add. Is this a precedence we want to establish, disallowing LGBT student activities to be mentioned on a University's Wikipedia entry? Please provide some feedback. And I'm sorry to put this as an anonymous edit, but I am (sheepishly) not fully out...yet. I don't think using my usual Username would advance my cause on other pages I have a stake in. (I know, I know...) Thanks alot. 170.170.59.139 (talk) 21:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

If the information is supported by a reliable source and is notable enough to be included, there is no reason it should not be included. The problem is establishing notability. Why among all the student organizations should the LGBT center be singled out? What has it done to warrant a mention in Wikipedia? Was it first in the region? Has it been in the news for something particular?
And come out already. I wasted too much time being a pansy, when I should have been a pansy. --Moni3 (talk) 21:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I have a long-ish response about this content at User talk:Benjiboi#Request for your input, FWIW. -- Banjeboi 00:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I was curious as to how you were able to change the Wikipedia logo. Can someone direct me to a tutorial (so I can do it on my own Wiki) or just tell me here??? Thanks in advance --Bentendo24 (talk) 15:15, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Wait, scratch that: I found out! --Bentendo24 (talk) 15:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Just a word of warning before you go off and change your own pages: whether it formats well or not depends on what browser you are using to access the page. I had the British flag set up for my user page, but on the work browser it looked horrible so I took it down again. -- roleplayer 15:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Talking of looking horrible, the LGBT flag here does on my screen. It overlaps with page content and isn't centred properly (it covers the main page link!)Yobmod (talk) 10:23, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

commented it out... i had been having problems w/ it too, but wasn't going to take it down if it was just me. Outsider80 (talk) 20:50, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Homophobia

I hope I don't sound like an over zealous liberalist here, but are the homophobic quotes by barely literate cretins like Roger Crow and Anita Bryant really necessary? I'm sure there are some gay and lesbian users who are subject to enough hatred and intolerance every day, without having to see it on the LGBT portal. --Heslopian (talk) 01:58, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Some of the more negative quotes probably could be cycled out for newer ones (it is already at its maximum of 60 quotes). any suggestions? Outsider80 (talk) 15:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I've left a few on the Suggest a Quote page, but I don't know if there any good. --Heslopian (talk) 15:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
moved all except the lyrics to the quote pool. skeptical that portal use of lyrics are kosher (similar to fair-use images not being allowed in portal namespace), but leaving it on the noms page in case i'm wrong. (WP:LYRICS has more info). Not sure who added the love has no limits quote, but couldn't find a source on google (maybe it is an anonymous/unknown quote) Outsider80 (talk) 16:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
To be honest I only added those lyrics because I was in a silly mood at the time - I certainly didn't think anyone would taken them seriously! - so if them being there violates some rule I wouldn't care if they were deleted. I vaguely remember that 'love has no limits' quote, wasn't it said by some BDSM advocate? --Heslopian (talk) 22:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
lol.. ok. i'm not the wikipedia police, I wasn't saying they were violating a rule being there (just that policy would probably prevent it from being moved into the random quotes pool). Outsider80 (talk) 00:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure Madonna's absence from Wikipedia's LGBT quotes pool won't prove too much of a dissapointment for the gay community lol. BTW, just out of interest, can you tell me if you ever do find the origin of that 'love has no limits' quote? --Heslopian (talk) 20:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
did a quick google search before moving it over to the quotes template, but didn't find out much (except that myspace users like it). not sure if anyone knows the origin, i ended up listing it as "unknown" in the quotes list -- Outsider80 (talk) 21:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Erika Friedman

Non-portal related message moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies (WT:LGBT), more eyes will see it there

de:Eva Brunne / sv:Eva Brunne

Can someone write an english article over lutheran, swedish bishop Eva Brunne. She lives open lesbian together with Gunilla Lindén and they have one son together. She is elected as next lutheran bishop in Diocese of Stockholm of Church of Sweden. GLGermann (talk) 20:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

You'd be better off posting these kinds of requests at WikiProject LGBT studies where a lot more people are active. Not many people watch this page. - ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 20:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Portal page way too wide

Is it just me or is the portal page way too wide? If not, can someone with more editing skills than myself help get it to one screen length wide?

Jamesryan87 (talk) 12:08, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit: I managed to find the bit of coding that was making the page way too wide.

It was this bit of code here:

| width="55%" valign="top" style="padding: 0; margin:0;" |

I'll leave this bit of talk up for a little while, just in case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamesryan87 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Book compilation

Hi all, I used the new article compiler to create a book for articles relating to the Gay Liberation Movement in the US. It's located at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Books/Gay_Liberation_at_40

Any ideas on how we might use this function to further aid in disseminating information on LGBT topics? -Jon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Binerman (talk • contribs) 18:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Statistics please

I`m writing a paper on homosexuality and I was hoping to find some more concrete numbers on the incidence rates of STD`s, I find that the google results tend to be very one sided, thankyou, Daniel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.120.238 (talk) 03:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

This might be useful. Zazaban (talk) 03:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Homosexuality ?

I want to know, if Benedikt XVI. is gay or bisexual. Is there anyone who can answer these question ? 92.252.45.229 (talk) 20:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Nobody knows, as he's not made public, his sexual orientation. GoodDay (talk) 21:14, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


Topics Box: Social Attitudes

In the Portal:LGBT/Topics box in the Social Attitudes section there is currently a red link for Traditional marriage movement which was deleted as an article. That section also includes items LGBT rights opposition • Heterosexism • Homophobia • Lesbophobia • Biphobia. There doesn't seem to be a clear general successor. Opponents of same-sex marriage in the United States is too specific to one country. We could just delete the dead link. Thoughts?--Larrybob (talk) 15:04, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

As long as LGBT rights opposition is there maybe just remove the redlink. -- Banjeboi 01:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Portugal high court on April 8, 2010

Portugals high court says OK to same-sex marriage bill.

80.226.25.86 (talk) 15:18, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


Current Events Is Broken

Ladies and gentlemen, I just noticed that the current events section on the LGBT portal page is empty now. I think somebody might want to fix it. Thank you -- DragonMage (unregistered user)


New Version of File:World homosexuality laws.svg since August 2009

New version of LGBT map has some mistakes. In Bahrein, Oman and United Arab Emirates is homosexuality illgal. Also some mistakes in pacific island states are in the new version of map. 92.252.37.28 (talk) 15:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Protection in Article 21 by Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union

On 1 December 2009, Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union comes into effect. In article 21 sexual orientation is protected. GLGermann (talk) 00:16, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

2010: Austria and Ireland

GLGermann (talk) 00:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Invertito

Invertito is an important German LGBT historian magazine for LGBT history in Germany. GLGermann (talk) 00:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Manuela Kay and Ruth Margarete Roellig

Two more lesbian German writers. GLGermann (talk) 23:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Robert Aldrich (historian)

And one important Australian historian for LGBT history. GLGermann (talk) 23:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

2010: Council of Europe

Council of Europe to member states on measures to combat discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation or gender identity. 80.226.22.82 (talk) 01:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

change to Anal sex page

I am very unhappy with recent changes to the Homosexual portion of the anal sex article. It focuses on fringe groups, such as the frot community, and is filled with negative unbalanced information. Others have raised concerns, and an individual seems to have removed all discussion about these issues from the discussion page. ?Judderwocky (talk) 07:18, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Homosexuality Revision

The article Homosexuality is undergoing revision. The revised version is available in the sandbox and the project documentation and coordination is taking place in the Sandbox's talk page.

I would appreciate if people joined in. I'm currently looking towards forming a team for the revision and future maintenance of this article.

Thank you,


Pdorion (talk) 07:57, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Creating Sperm Cell from Female Embryo

Not sure if this is the good place to inquire about this but here goes: do we have an article on Wikipedia regarding this news article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3323846/Sperm-cells-created-from-female-embryo.html)? I know it's a bit outdated, but it seems significant enough that I hope there would be some information on it? I couldn't find any on the homosexuality page, but maybe that's not the spot for it? Children of the dragon (talk) 03:43, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

LGBT rights in the Republic of Ireland

On July 1, 2010 irish parliament allowed civil unions in Ireland. 92.252.101.218 (talk) 23:05, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Excellent news! -- roleplayer 23:15, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

File:Gay Adoption Map Europe.svg

In France adoption rights are for same-sex couples are allowed.

So someone should correct "Gay Adoption Map Europe" and colour France in map. 92.252.24.125 (talk) 22:10, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Trans-people pronouns

I've been doing some Wiki-ing tonight and I found that the same annoying topic kept coming up on pages about people who are transgendered and the pronouns to use, so I made up a quick box to put on those talk pages:

As I said, was a quick box without doing much fiddling. Tried to get the short-cut box to center, but it didn't want to follow orders. Anyway, from I think that Help:Infobox says that I'm supposed to post it on the project page for approval. If I'm supposed to post it somewhere else instead, please let me know :) Kaotac (talk) 18:21, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

This portal page could really benefit from a little overhaul...

Dreadful, boring color scheme. Not enough pictures and icons to draw readers in. Pretty unexciting content-wise—e.g. where are the birthdays?

The Serbo-Croatian (interesting, varied content, colorful, inviting; perhaps too many rounded corners) and Russian (colorful; love the banner) equivalents are much better IMHO. Time for a redesign? --Morn (talk) 23:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made the page a little more colorful. What's still missing though are the anniversaries/birthdays... --Morn (talk) 09:17, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Well that should be fairly easy to compile from categories. Where are they going? -- roleplayer 11:37, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
They should probably be set up like the "On this day..." box on the WP main page. But I haven't taken a closer look at how that works. Probably there has to be a separate Wiki page for every day of the year?
WP-SH has a long list of stuff here: sh:Wikipedia:Portal:LGBT/LGBT_godina Perhaps that's a translation of an article on en.wikipedia? --Morn (talk) 11:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes I think it would involve a separate page for each date. That's a good list - what language is that in? -- roleplayer 12:13, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian presumably. Does Google Translate even support that? But I could have sworn I had seen a similar list here somewhere.

I'd say the "Topics" box should be edited down a little, perhaps sprinkled with some icons to make it less text-heavy. That would also make enough space for "On this day..." --Morn (talk) 12:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes I think you're right re topics. It does look a bit text heavy. -- roleplayer 12:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I've removed some items from the topics box. It's still huge and suffers from the wall of text syndrome, but perhaps a little less so than before.
One remaining issue with the selected content on the page is that there is too much emphasis on abstract concepts as opposed to things that physically exist or existed. It might be OK for the topics box (where overreaching abstract concepts are useful), but under selected articles only two entries (about gay bars) are about real things. Everything else is basically abstract. (I count movies as abstract here). So I'd say more coverage of persons, works of art that can be touched (books, paintings, sculptures, photographs, etc.), and places would make this page a little more approachable and less like an academic portal for Gender Studies.
The welcome box could probably also be more succinct. OTOH, the time dimension is missing entirely. The second paragraph talks about "around the world" but makes no mention of the past whatsoever. That's also an issue with the selected biographies: they are too much geared toward the 20th-century US, not much historical context is given, neither are other cultures (e.g. Ancient China) mentioned.
Perhaps this portal should be nominated for featured status? In fact it seems a bit silly it's not a FP already. --Morn (talk) 12:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Portal icon

Copied from Template talk:Portal/Images/Lgbt; who knows if anybody is watching that page

I think we should experiment with a different portal icon and see if that increases traffic. The current "jigsaw piece/keyhole/sideways rainbow" image is more picture riddle than icon and doesn't look very distinct or recognizable at small sizes. I propose replacing this with File:Nuvola LGBT flag borderless.svg. --Morn (talk) 14:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Comments on dos Manzanas

Greetings community.

Apologies if this is the incorrect forums. However, I've gotten into a conflict with another editor at the merits of dos Manzanas as a reliable site for citing the alleged homosexuality for Paul of Greece with a Denham Fouts. Your input on Paul of Yugoslavia (in which we appearently are discussing Paul of Greece and Denham Fouts) would be greatly appreciated. Even if not in my favor. Thank you!♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 10:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

David Berger (theologian)·

Greetings community,

i need help by speeddeleted article of german author and theologian David Berger. User:Lectonar speeddeleted this good and relevant article.

David Berger lives open homosexual and now in 2010 he wrote a new book "Heiliger Schein", in which Berger writes 20-40 percentage of catholic clergy is homosexual. Frank Marco (talk) 13:30, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

For the second time User:Lectonar speeddeleted a good article with references over German catholic theologian and professor David Berger. Berger wrote as author several books and in his last book "Heiliger Schein" he wrote, that 20 to 40 percentage of catholic clergy is gay. So can someone stop here User:Lectonator and his vandalizm of this article ? Marco Frank (talk) 15:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

For the second time User:Lectonar speeddeleted a good article with references over German catholic theologian and professor David Berger. Berger wrote as author several books and in his last book "Heiliger Schein" he wrote, that 20 to 40 percentage of catholic clergy is gay. So can someone stop here User:Lectonator and his vandalizm of this article ? Marco Frank (talk) 15:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I can only get the Dec. 5th article version from Google's cache, so I don't know if your second submission was better, but to me it seems you need to have a better introduction. "David Berger (born March 8, 1968 in Würzburg) is a German theologian and author." isn't really enough, you need to tell the reader what's special about him and why he's important. Perhaps you should work on the article in your user sandbox a bit before you try to put it in the article namespace. Still, I don't think Lectonar was justified at all in speedy-deleting this. A regular nomination for deletion would have been more useful to get input from other users. IMHO some admins are a little overzealous when it comes to speedy deletion. --Morn (talk) 17:44, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
no. It was a more than a stub and good enough to keep. 92.252.82.80 (talk) 22:18, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Omarion

Singer Omarion has come out as Bisexual apparently. It's been added to his page. I believe this press release is the source they must have read Press release ... Is it reliable? It needs citing any how I guess until someone makes the decision, he is quoted as identifing with the label.RAIN..the..ONE HOTLINE 23:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

What happened to Intersex?

Hello. As an Intersex person I was under the impression that the acronym used to LGBTI. What happened to the I? over 2010 there seems to have been a massive effeort to remove any refrence of Intersex people from GLBTI. Anyone know why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.124.72.194 (talk) 10:11, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Here in the UK we very rarely use LGBTI. The first time I even heard of that acronym was when I logged into Wikipedia today. -- roleplayer 14:37, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
I've been active in LGBT issues here in the States for the past decade, and in my experience the *I* has only been used sporadically. Most often, it's only the first four letters; if there's a fifth, it's usually Q. You're right, the *I* needs to be recognized. Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:46, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
So I read up on this, and apparently, some intersex people didn't identify as LGBT+ and didn't want to be included in the LGBT community; therefore, the I was removed so that intersex people weren't all clumped together against their will. Only intersex people who do identify as LGBT+ would say that they were LGBT. I guess that it all depends on the person. NeutralWikipedia 02:41, 16 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NeutralWikipedia (talk • contribs)

How to suggest an article about activist Rick Stokes

Hi; I wolud to suggest an article about the LGBT activist Rick Stokes (the mine was erased), who appeared in the documentary from 1977 "Word Is Out" and is a part of our history. In "feasoffun.com" there are an interview (podcast) about him and the electro shock ¿therapy? that he suffered in the 1950s. (sorry for my English)

Regards from Spain: --Guachinche (talk) 14:53, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I see your article was deleted as an attack page. I do not agree with that assessment, and have asked the deleting administrator to reconsider. LadyofShalott 18:32, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Trinity Christian Academy (Addison, Texas)

People at this very conservative school in Texas keep removing an embarrassing section about a student outed and expelled for being being gay and starting a gay website, this made international media attention and is well written and cited, it has nearly a hundred citations on its talk page. Can you guys keep an eye on this? I added the school to the portal and going to add it to the LGBT wikiproject as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.74.66 (talk) 07:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Just checked. It's still there. Sdegan (talk) 22:47, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Checked again tonight. It's still in the introduction of the page. Sean Egan (talk) 04:44, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Case against inclusion of Heterosexualization as "part of the series that affects LGBT people"

Heterosexulization is a process that primarily affects the non-LGBT, The proposition that LGBT individuals maybe heterosexualized is preposterous, since, had they been heterosexualized, they would not be LGBT anymore. LGBT are the people who have escaped heterosexualization, and so its a misrepresentation of the issue to include 'heterosexualization' as a part of the LGBT issue, or to make the entire article revolve around making it an issue that affects the LGBT.

The danger of making heterosexualization into a 'gay' issue, is that then the people that it affects the most -- that is those who don't relate with the sexual identities (as in the case of the non-west) or those who take the heterosexual identity under pressure or conditioning (through heterosexualization) in order to escape the gay identity, then are excluded from its readership and even if they read it would not relate with it as something that affects them -- as this creates a big psychological barrier. It amounts to hijacking the issue by the LGBT community.

It is this reason for which I feel the inclusion of this article as "part of a series on issues that affect LGBT people is wrong." It is as much an issue that affects LGBT people, as 'heterosexuality' Is heterosexuality a part of this series? Homosexualization of this issue stigmatizes it for the people to which it affects the most, and serves no purpose. The LGBT people have several terms to discuss the issue of 'homophobia' and other LGBT issues, and its unreasonable for them to appropriate everything that challenges heterosexuality in its own fold. This is a politics that distorts the facts, especially of those that are affected negatively by the western concept of sexual orientation, especially, the non-westerners. (Masculinity (talk) 14:05, 13 April 2011 (UTC))

For those interested, the discussion is at Talk:Heterosexualization#Not only an LGBT issue. And as I stated to Masculinity there, The content is not entirely on homophobia. And how do you know none of the references you removed talk about heterosexualization, considering that some of those references are not available online? I highly doubt you have those books and volumes. And this source and others do talk about heterosexualization. Just because it doesn't use the specific word "heterosexualization"...does not make it any less clear that it is talking about "heterosexualization." You often do this, remove reliable sources, asserting that they are only about one thing and with no valid reason at all. You then add your own text, usually original research (meaning, as you know, that it is attributed to no sources, reliable or otherwise). One example is your removal of these references from the Heterosexuality article. That definition is not defining "sexual orientation" in regards to homosexuality. It is defining "sexual orientation" period, which is why it is also used in the Sexual orientation article and others, and is why I reverted you (and tweaked the lead further). You need to learn how to really look at sources, and stop adding your own definitions to things. If heterosexualization is the process through which individuals are conditioned to adopt heterosexual practices, by ignoring and suppressing their sexual feelings toward the same sex and then using these suppressed emotions towards the opposite gender, I'm not seeing how you think this article is not going to be largely or mostly about LGBT issues. The "proposition" that LGBT individuals may be heterosexualized is NOT preposterous. Plenty of gay/lesbian/bisexual people initially take on a heterosexual identity, because they feel that being heterosexual is the right sexual orientation and or want to be heterosexual. There are even accounts of people not realizing they are gay/lesbian/otherwise until much later in life (their 30s or 40s). One of the things with you is that you don't believe in the "concept" of LGBT. To you, it is just a Western application. That's your belief, whatever. But I say whether you call it "gay" or "just a man engaging in sexual acts with another man (men who have sex with men)," the article is still discussing the conditioning of people automatically taking on the heterosexual label, making depictions of human sexuality largely or only about being heterosexual, and suppressing any sexual/romantic feelings they may have for the same sex, which is what heterosexualization is. And let me make clear again: That "only part of the topic being covered" does not give you the right to remove the material. You want the article to cover all these angles you state the term encompasses, then you expand the article in that way...with WP:Reliable sources. I am not going to sit here and have these long-winded debates with you about this. We both know you can write large texts to try and support your stance. I can as well. But this is not a debate I feel compelled to have. It's very simple, really: You don't go removing heaps of relevant, reliable text like that. You have a problem with the article mostly leaning in one direction, then you add the relevant tags (POV tags or whatever), and then expand the article in the way that you want...if compelled to do so...but with relevant text and reliable sources backing up that text (then remove the POV tags or whatever). Flyer22 (talk) 18:16, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Romani people

You might want to keep an eye on the Romani people article for the time being. I'm watching it but I'm not on all the time, there's someone who has a real issue with one of the people mentioned being a drag artist (see talk Talk:Romani_people#Azis_is_not_representative_of_romani_culture) Akerbeltz (talk) 17:58, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

LGBT Case law (international)

Is there a comprehensive list of LGBT-related cases somewhere? All of the LGBT lists are country specific and do not contain decisions made by other courts of final appeal (like Mexico, or Portugal or Nepal).--Enos733 (talk) 19:13, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

random?

People in this project should consider this [random picture]. It is under your banner and I assume you are not interested in it as silver ware. Gay rights? McCronion (talk) 08:45, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what the portal is about. This is the LGBT portal, not the gay rights portal, although gay rights are covered to some degree. And the Warren Cup is an example of LGBT-related art from Roman times. Not everything on this portal is about gay activism, if that is what your question is about. --Morn (talk) 09:28, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

No that's pretty much the response I was expecting. McCronion (talk) 05:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, if you knew the answer beforehand, what was the point of asking? Normally people tend to ask about stuff they don't know. --Morn (talk) 10:21, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


Elio di Rupo in Belgium

After Iceland with first open lesbian prime minister Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir now politican Elio di Rupo become first open gay prime minister of Belgium. 82.149.172.116 (talk) 23:29, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Countee Cullen

I am editing the Countee Cullen article. There was a rumor that he was homosexual that was written by an author of a book (it was uncited so I cited the author). But an author of an encyclopedia basically stated that there was no proof. Since, my limited understanding is articles in encyclopedias can not be used as sources on Wikipedia, therefore I can not remove the citation or the statement by the author. Largely I see his sexual orientation, at this beginning stage of editing, having no impact on his life or his writings. Furthermore, I do not think rumors should be included in the (any) article unless it impacts him (the subject), or society's view of him(the subject). Someone put a link on the talk page to this portal, so I thought I'd run it by this page and see if there was any guidelines I should follow.

Thanks in advance. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 23:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

[Category:LGBT people] in Commons

Hi at all. In Commons a user has delete this category from a lot of pages of famous LGBT people in the world. There is currently a discussion about this. I would be very grateful to all who want to participate in the debate, so that there will be a joint decision and shared. Thank you very much! Cheers, DenghiùComm (20.01.2012, 10:55 PM) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.65.218.51 (talk) 21:55, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

On adding LGBT content to non-LGBT pages

I am not highly involved in any one project on Wikipedia, but I do make edits to science based pages. I noticed the other day that the Chick-Fil-A Wiki page has a mention about anti-gay policies. I think that Dominoes Pizza should also have a section on this. My problem is that I don't know if it would be appropriate or not. Would someone like to add that in there if they think it's fitting? The wiki page on Tom Monaghan (who has a controlling share in Domino's) made me feel that it should be mentioned on the company page.

Also, should there be a Wiki page on companies with known anti-gay and pro-gay policies? Sdegan (talk) 22:46, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I posted this to the WikiProject Talk Page for LGBT stuff. Sdegan (talk) 22:49, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to know if it's all right to mention anti-straight policies on various suitable pages? Since mentioning anti-gay policies seems to be accepted, shouldn't this be acceptable as well? HaarFager (talk) 00:34, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Stephanie Adams

Hi, folks. I happened by this article and I think there's some discrimination going on with attacks on it. There are unreasonable challenges to properly cited information and some discussion that belittles the subject and calls for deletion. I'm attempting to add to the article but I'm encountering quite a bit of resistance. Could I get some folks to review the history and provide opinions on the talk page? Thanks. Pkeets (talk) 03:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Jodie Foster....again

there's current discussion going on over on the Jodie Foster talk page that might be of interest to some. the usual thinly veiled denialism and homophobia there is palpable. --emerson7 02:11, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Yup, this is fairly desperate straightwashing going on in the article. According to her glbtq.com article, Jodie first came out in 2007.[1] So WP is already six years behind the verifiable facts at this point. But the force of denial is strong with some WP editors. --Morn (talk) 15:56, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

File:HRC marriage equality sign.svg

Could anybody integrate this popular sign into some gay marriage-articles? Thanks — Allrounder (talk) 21:16, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I sort of feel like doing so makes it seem more like a marriage equality symbol than a clever variation of Human Rights Campaign's logo done for promotional purposes - unless that is the context in which is was mentioned. --Varnent (talk)(COI) 22:38, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Image call updated from JPG to SVG. Tuvalkin (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

LGBT Categories up for deletion

Please feel free to weigh in, pro or con, about whether these LGBT categories should continue to exist on Wikipedia:
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_September_17#LGBT_people_from_the_United_States_by_state
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_September_17#LGBT_scientists_by_nationality
Liz Read! Talk! 23:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Homophobia in the Ukrainian Wikipedia!!!

Hello. I'm open gay Wikipedian from Ukraine. I want to report a homophobic activities of some administrators and patrol Ukrainian Wikipedia. Present direct and indirect discrimination. Related articles LGBT renamed, removed or changed beyond recognition and biased their content. LGBT friendly accused of "advocating LGBT"! There is even an article on a similar topic that is unique only in the Russian Wikipedia and is unrelated to common sense and the rules of Wikipedia[2]. Wikipedia Wikipedia, homophobes administrators and patrol called a "collection of information" and promote "non-traditional values." Homosexuality Article in Ukrainian Wikipedia entitled "homosexualist[3]." And Article hey do not have any relation to the topic of the article. There napsyano of MSM and that gays - spread the AIDS disease. User A1 promotes orthodox attitudes to homosexuality and phaye information on how it relates to LGBT church in the paper, which is irrelevant[4]. The new administrator Green Zero[5] has deleted many categories and articles on LGBT issues. particular category of gay writers. Me and other LGBT participants repeatedly verbally humiliated publicly. Addiction is especially thorough and biased. Although we attempt to write quality articles as possible and have contributed enough respect. That our existence they and other homophobes recognized as "LGBT propaganda." I and other LGBT Wikipedian very simple somehow affect this entire situation because this is unacceptable - it bullinh and in direct violation of not only LGBT rights in Ukraine but also the rules of Wikipedia! Thank you! Please help! --Rayan Riener (talk) 21:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussing improvements to the LGBT portal; very few Wikipedians will see your message here, and even fewer administrators. The place for conduct issues involving administrators would be the "Incidents" noticeboard, but I suspect the response would be that the administrators of the English Wikipedia have no control over what happens at any other project. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Deleted files

Dears, please be informed that 2 files have been deleted from The Imitation Game article, because the user who uploaded those file was a sockpopet. Those two files also were used in Alan Turing article (right side of the Education section). Who will help to reapload those files again ? Some examples - [6] (first and last pics of the top row). Thanks in advance. M.Karelin (talk) 22:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Image in portal bars

For your information: Template talk:Portal#Image edit request on 28 June 2015 (2).
83.228.174.148 (talk) 15:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC).

Need for comment on "List of popes who engaged in sex with men" (deleted)

A page I created on "List of popes said to have sex with men", using material from List of sexually active popes. This was summarily deleted as an Attack page. Apparently saying a pope had sex with a man was taken as a hateful attack. I have contested this deletion and would appreciate support.

[[7]]

I'm sorry if this isn't the ideal place to post this. Please movenit if there's a better place. deisenbe (talk) 14:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Gary Cooper RfC

There's an RfC happening here on Talk:Gary_Cooper#Anderson_Lawler whether to include mention of the very gay Anderson Lawler -- Gary Cooper's best friend in his article. Engleham (talk) 06:52, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

@Engleham: In theory, this page is only for discussions about improving the portal. You'd do better to post at the WikiProject, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:05, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Ta! Engleham (talk) 17:23, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Picture of Straight Couple

Is there a particular reason that the first picture on the LGBT portal is of a straight couple? I was trying to think of reasons such as showing allies or even promoting the sexuality that is being straight. I'm not sure but I think we should consider changing it to an LGBT couple or something not so related to heterosexuality. Just a thought. Thanks! --Sddone01 (talk) 17:52, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Which picture do you mean? This one? (It's the first one, but it doesn't show a straight couple). ---Sluzzelin talk 17:57, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Yes that is the picture I was referring to. I see that it's not a straight couple now! My mistake! From far away it did appear to be a straight couple so my apologies. However I was thinking that if I thought that it was a straight couple maybe other people are getting that same message which may still call for a change in imagery. Even if not, though, it may still be an idea worth considering due to the way the lesbian couple is being represented. That picture denotes a very sexual connotation, a way lesbian couples are often seen in society, while the gay couples are shown in a more romantic relationship type of way. If we're trying to avoid bias it may be better to represent both the gay and lesbian couple the same way on the portal. -Sddone01 (talk) 04:40, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
I saw that area at the top of the page and thought it greatly improved the look of the page with the addition of images. How would a person go about adding appropriate images to the Portal:Conservatism page of say a straight couple? HaarFager (talk) 00:38, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

A for asexual/aromantic vs. A for allies

The description box says that the A is for asexual or aromantic, but I've read that in the past the A was called "allies" so that closeted LGBT+ people could have access to LGBT resources without outing themselves. Do we include that somewhere? NeutralWikipedia 02:56, 16 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NeutralWikipedia (talk • contribs)

Nudity

Why this portal contains nudity? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:3902:D521:82F:C235 (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2016 (UTC)


LGBT?

I was excited to happen upon this portal page by chance today. I was disappointed by its content.

The first thing I see on this page is Harry Styles' birthday. How is this related to LGBT at all? And then, a quote from Brad Pitt. Why not highlight a quote from an LGBT person? Three of the five current news articles are relevant exclusively to gay cisgender men and a fourth puts Gay in the headline despite the article talking about other groups. The selected picture references a gay cisgender man. The selected biography references a gay cisgender man. The introduction to the page appears to suggest that same-sex marriage is the pinnacle of LGBT rights. What about trans and intersex rights, such as: the right to use a public restroom? Overall the page feels very 'gay'-oriented with a wealth of historical information that is relevant to gay men with a bonus of attractive straight men who are allies, but tends to have far less on L, B and T. Is this appropriate? Even the name is somewhat excluding. There are many option that will create an even more inclusive space, for example changing the name to LGBTQIA+. LGBTQIA+ is a more inclusive name that includes queer people, intersex people, aromantic and asexual people and others who identify as part of the LGBTIA+ community.

Who has editorial control over this portal? Is this just an algorithmic reflection of a bias in Wikipedia's content? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.102.78 (talk) 22:08, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

I think the answer to that is the same reason people get by with adding LGBT references in articles about straight people. Equality. HaarFager (talk) 00:41, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

RFC on Wikidata about how to use property labels

I've just started an RFC on Wikidata:WikiProject LGBT about What values should we use for sexual orientation? Opinions would be gratefully received. — OwenBlacker (talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 14:55, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Homosexual behavior in animals

Guys, please pay attention to the article. I am from ruwiki, and the user Путеец from ruwiki destroyes the article the same way he has done it in Russian wikipedia. Please pay attention to that. M.Karelin (talk) 00:07, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Notice from the Portals WikiProject

WikiProject Portals is back!

The project was rebooted and completely overhauled on April 17th, 2018. Its goals are to revitalize the entire portal system, make building and maintaining portals easier, support the ongoing improvement of portals and the editors dedicated to this, and design the portals of the future.

As of May 2nd, 2018, membership is at 60 editors, and growing. You are welcome to join us.

There are design initiatives for revitalizing the portals system as a whole, and for improving each component of portals. So far, 2 new dynamic components have been developed: Template:Transclude lead excerpt and Template:Transclude random excerpt.

Tools are provided for building and maintaining portals, including automated portals that update themselves in various ways.

And, if you are bored and would like something to occupy your mind, we have a wonderful task list.

From your friendly neighborhood Portals WikiProject. Hope to see you there. Sincerely,    — The Transhumanist   07:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing the news and the links The Transhumanist! --- FULBERT (talk) 11:56, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Can we change the women picture on the portal?

The fact that the guys are mostly clothed and in public and the picture of the women is highly sexualized and pornographic, can we just change that picture to the picture from the lesbian article with the two bikers holding hands? october 15 20:48 2018

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Lesbian_Couple_from_back_holding_hands.jpg

here's the picture, thanks in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:5301:2101:3471:EF3A:5CDF:BD3F (talk) 00:47, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Loui Sand

You might want to watch the Louise Sand article as within the past few days Sand has publicly announced transitioning. Jack N. Stock (talk) 04:31, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up on this. --- FULBERT (talk) 15:16, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Talk:Louise Sand#‎Requested move 15 January 2019 I'm not sure how the article should be titled, but we need more than two participants in the discussion. Jack N. Stock (talk) 12:51, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Link not working on this portal's "Things you can do" page

When I clicked the Cleanup listing for WikiProject LGBT studies link on the Portal:LGBT/WikiProjects and things you can do page I got a '502 Bad Gateway' error. It's kind of amusing to think of this comment as a meta 'Things you can do' item. :) I'm a new user here, and appreciate that there is an LGBT portal. Thank you! IdRatherBeAtTheBeach (talk) 16:31, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

boi(slang)

The boi(slang) page seems to me to be a bit offensive to the LGBT community, I don't know if this is the correct terminology for this or if this was recently vandalized. But either way it doesn't seem right. Just thought y'all should take a look so I will leave this here. Especially the reference links. One goes to a motorcycle class thing — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThyHero (talk • contribs) 17:15, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

August LGBT+ User Group meeting

While this LGBT portal is specifically related to the English Wikipedia community, we want to make sure that there is an awareness that there is also a global LGBT+ User Group that has members across many language Wikipedia communities. To this end, the user group has monthly online meetings, and the August 2019 one was just scheduled. I am cross-posting it here for awareness and potential involvement.

The August LGBT+ User Group meeting will be on Monday, August 5, at 1:00pm EDT / 6:00pm BST. All members of our user group are welcome to attend and add agenda items. More information for this may be found on the Wikimedia LGBT User Group August 2019 page. As this will be the last live meeting before Wikimania (for those who may be able to attend that), please join us for ongoing planning and reporting out. --- FULBERT (talk) 22:41, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

LGBT Portal Update

To be honest, I find this page garish and unattractive. I am a web developer and the color scheme is wrong as well as some images and topics. It is a walking cliche and needs updating! tdempsey (talk) 01:05, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Margot (activist)

I've just started this page on Margot (activist), a trans activist in Poland, whose arrest is being described as a Stonewall moment for the country. A few people have started vandalising it (misgendering, misnaming) and I don't know all the applicable rules regarding such things, so I'd appreciate it if somebody could keep an eye on it too in case I misapply them. Many thanks. Malick78 (talk) 19:38, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Article suggestions

Content below has been moved here from Portal:LGBT/Suggest, to increase the likelihood of the suggestions actually being seen. It does not appear that anyone has been watching the Suggestion page, so I have tagged it as historical. North America1000 03:16, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Current biography suggestions

Moved from Portal:LGBT/Suggest
 – North America1000 03:17, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Please list new nominations at top:

Tim Tate Artdoofus (talk) 01:51, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Jennifer Knight, Seeks Canadian Asyulum, victim of hate crimes, human trafficking, domestic violence in USA/Canada 2007

Portal updates

The following updates have been performed to the portal. North America1000 05:59, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

  • Updated portal using Template:Transclude random excerpt, providing current, up-to-date information that is verbatim to article content. A consensus approving the usage of transclusion templates in portals was formed at this Village Pump discussion. Used selections from Portal:LGBT/Selected biography and Portal:LGBT/Selected article.
  • Expanded the Selected biography section with new entries. Entries added are for subjects who have received coverage in reliable sources for being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transsexual, and most of the articles added contain verified content about the subject having stated their sexual preference(s) or orientation(s) within the articles, having a same-sex partner, husband or wife, having been involved in various forms of LGBTQ activism, writing, literature, etc.
  • Added a new Selected lists section
  • Added some high-relevance articles to the Selected article section; several GA-class articles added, along with other very on-topic articles
  • Boldly moved Portal:LGBT/Categories to the main portal page at Portal:LGBT. As of this post, the Category page only receives a daily average of 38 page views (link), while thie main portal page receives a daily average of 373 page views (link). More WP:READERS will see the categories on the main portal page and hence, more readers will potentially use them.

Portal not kept up-to-date - why bother having it?

This portal is woeful both in its layout, colour and in the way it is maintained. The "Did you know ... " section hasn't been updated for 11 years (!) although that section on the main page is updated at least once a day and regularly features new and improved LGBT related articles. There was one this week on LGBT Centre Mongolia. I note also that in the "birthdays" section there is a photo of a man without any caption underneath to say who it is - that is just sloppy work. Why even have this portal if you can't be bothered to make even a half-decent job of it - it is just an embarrassment and looks like an amateur website from the 1990's.86.56.72.121 (talk) 09:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Information icon Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit link at the top.
The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons you might want to). Graham Beards (talk) 10:45, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

homophiobia 'light' among wikipedia editors

There are far to many examples of editors wanting to reduce the visibility of LGBT people on Wikepedia for instance, the proposal to remove someone from this list page (see the talk, at the top) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_openly_LGBT_heads_of_government Adagio67 (talk) 09:48, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

July 2021: Category:LGBT Roman Catholic popes and Category:LGBT Roman Catholic cardinals

There are some users on Wikipedia with strong support, who deny gay Roman catholic popes and cardinals in history. They delete that categories out of biographys on Wikipedia. Maybe some LGBT people here have time enough, to stop, that vandailsm by religious Roman catholic users.

A good source is to find at LGBT magazine The Advocate:

--188.96.230.248 (talk) 21:28, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

--92.76.109.35 (talk) 02:00, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion over deletion of Category:LGBT Roman Catholic bishops

In July 2021 a discussion over deletion was opened. --188.96.230.225 (talk) 20:51, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Experience making an article with social media sources?

I am trying to publish an article on Miss Gay Caribbean, but am having trouble finding sources outside of youtube and blogs, anyone have experience citing these types of materials? Does this make publishing unlikely? Chainsawpunk (talk) 04:17, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_(impersonator)

Jorge Perez Evelyn is the name of the actor. Jorge Perez Evelyn is the name showing in all the shows Jorge Perez Evelyn is the name used by Jorge Perez for the stage There is an editor that keeps changing JORGE PEREZ EVELYN name to EVELYN (IMPERSONATOR) Jorge Perez Evelyn does not like to be called that way If you see RU PAUL wikipedia page ONLY READS RU PAUL ( impersonator is not added next to it) See how JORGE PEREZ EVELYN shows in everywhere as JORGE PEREZ EVELYN, why in Wikipedia should be different? see examples all over the internet:

https://www.facebook.com/jorgeperezevelyn/ http://www.alternativateatral.com/persona403726-evelyn-jorge-perez https://sites.google.com/view/jorge-perez-evelyn

and there are more and more.... Is there a way or somebody can help to make sure that editors don't play with people's name and leaves JORGE PEREZ EVELYN name alone and cannot be changed? Its the same that if you call to "Elizabeth Taylor" ONLY "Elizabeth".....and remove the rest just because...??? ALSO: JORGE PEREZ EVELYN grand mother is the famous Argentina actress ANITA BOBASSO...the reference to his grand mother name has been ALSO removed...why?? It feels impotence because when somebody corrects it a editor comes and change it again and again and again...why???? PLEASE HELP. Alfredomaraw (talk) 11:53, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

"Use masculine terms when possible (e.g. "his contributions")"

I'm not part of the LGBT community, but I would like to specify my sex (so as not to confuse people). I have set "Use masculine terms when possible (e.g. "his contributions")", but it doesn't seem to work; this doesn't appear next to my username in my messages. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi Jack, typically your selected pronoun shows when someone writes {{they|JackkBrown}}. Since you use he/him, this template will automatically write "he." Same thing for them and him.
Example: "JacktheBrown rocks, they is a good editor." It shows "he" but I used the aforementioned template. This only works in source editing and not the visual editor.
There is an opt-in gadget you can use to view others' pronouns by hovering over their usernames.
This information is available on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editors%27_pronouns#Best_practices Zoozoor (talk) 01:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Timeline of asexual history

Hello, I am working to update the Timeline of asexual history page. I admit, I am a bit outside of my realm here (my typical area of expertise is radio stations), but I am trying to help. I am working with the fine folks over at AVEN who are giving me information that they think is notable and I am doing my best to source and add it. For the most part, I have sourced all of it. I have gotten a little backlash saying my entries, while good faith, had "Multiple MOS issues and non-notable individuals. WP:WTAF". I can't find any MOS issues and all the indiviuals are notable to the asexual history timeline in one way or another. Also, no redlinks are listed on the page or in the references.

Would you all give the page a once over and see if there is anything I missed, anything that needs changed. This is your realm of expertise and I am more than willing to work with you all here and I welcome any and all suggestions you all might have. I want this article to be inclusive, sourced, but up to Wikipedia standards as well. Thanks for your assistance. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:18 on April 17, 2020 (UTC) • #StayAtHome

On-going anti-LGBTQ purge and censorship in the List of people from Ukraine

A clique of editors seem to be implementing a purge of any mentionings of notable LGBTQ Ukrainians and LGBTQ activism in Ukraine.

In particular, the corresponding section in the List of people from Ukraine listing notable LGBTQ Ukrainians and Ukrainian LGBTQ activists with Wikipedia pages, has been first censored and then completely purged by this clique of editors, under the obviously false pretext of such entries in the list being "unecyclopedic"(!).

Please review the following revision history, between July 27 and July 29, 2020 , https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_people_from_Ukraine&action=history .

The purged list of notable LGBTQ Ukrainians and Ukrainian LGBTQ activists is as follows:

LGBTQ Ukrainians, pro-European and pro-Western LGBTQ Ukrainian activists

Please help to monitor and report the disruptive anti-LGBTQ editors and please help to edit List of people from Ukraine so that it objectively reflects the role of the LGBTQ people in the past, current and future Ukrainian politics, life, arts and science!

  1. ^ "Hinchey got to Washington via the Thruway". recordonline.com. Retrieved 2016-01-19.[permanent dead link‍]

List of gay men's choruses

FYI: A large list of mostly unlinked/red-linked entries. I moved unlinked, red-linked, URL-only-linked, and/or commented out entities to the talk page: talk:List of gay men's choruses. Adakiko (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adakiko (talk • contribs) 21:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

How to see all the articles linked with portal ?

HI, how to see all the articles linked with portal ? ProudWatermelon (talk) 00:04, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi,
The easiest is to likely go through Category:LGBTQ as that tree should have all related articles to this portal. Raladic (talk) 19:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Move the portal to LGBTQ

The Wikipedia article of LGBT has been moved to LGBTQ. So the portal also needs to move to LGBTQ. AimanAbir18plus (talk) 10:23, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Started official RM discusion below. Raladic (talk) 22:44, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
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