Draft talk:List of legendary rulers of Wales

Additional medieval Welsh King list article

This article has been inspired by other Celtic nations' articles; List of High Kings of Ireland, Legendary kings of Scotland, List of legendary rulers of Cornwall. Although it is a merger from the previous King of Wales article, please read Talk:King of Wales article page for a further explanation. If users have ideas or objections, please use talk page. Cltjames (talk) 23:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Cltjames: I'm afraid this article is ringing alarm bells for me, and I've given it a {{disputed}} tag. While the article title is List of legendary rulers of Wales, the lede treats King Camber as a historical figure (he wasn't) and Cambria as "a sub-kingdom of the Kingdom of Britain" in the Iron Age. But see the lede of the article Cambria: "The term was not in use during the Roman period (when Wales had not come into existence as a distinct entity) or the early medieval period ... The term Cambria is first attested in Geoffrey of Monmouth in the 12th century as an alternative to [Britannia and Wallia]". "The Celts established Wales, England, and Scotland as the countries of Great Britain" is another dubious statement, and the entire "Establishing the Kingdom of Cambria (Wales)" section is pseudohistory (all from Geoffrey of Monmouth, I think) written as if it were historical fact. Also, the title and the scope don't match as the article begins with legendary figures and ends with historical ones. Ham II (talk) 07:24, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so the lede can be altered, but I personally don't have book sources going into detail about the dispute of Geoffrey of Monmouth, so I wouldn't know what to change or add. But please see also similar articles, List of High Kings of Ireland, Legendary kings of Scotland and List of legendary rulers of Cornwall for comparison as to how this article can be structured and presented. Cltjames (talk) 08:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Draftification

This article appears to be a copywithin from King of Wales, placed under another title, but I agree with Ham IIs comments above, and additionally it does not even claim to be what the page title suggests it is. I think this needs more work before we publish to the world. A reader needs to understand the scope and subject of the page. I have thus moved to draft. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:02, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @Ham II and @Sirfurboy that it needs to be rewritten – it really needs to make clear which figures are purely legendary (e.g. Camber and his decendents), which ones are possibly historical but repurposed as pseudo-historical kings (e.g. the List of Kings of Welsh Kingdoms as King of Britain in the article), etc. – the lead at the moment reads like it's placing these legendary kings into the historical context that they would have existed in, had they been real (WP:OR/WP:SYNTH). That said, there seems to be a consensus on Talk:King of Wales to keep that article free from legendary kings, so if the above points can be addressed, it would be good to have this article to match the List of High Kings of Ireland, Legendary kings of Scotland and List of legendary rulers of Cornwall articles listed above. @Cltjames – I'd be happy to work with you to try to fix these problems if you'd like. --Yodin^T 12:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree with above, not what I intended by expressing my openess to this type of article. But it is clear that there is interest in this topic so best as a fully separate legendary article, rather than mix it with more certain history. This shouldn't be a copy of the King of Wales reverted version. DankJae 13:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for getting in touch. I would much appreciate your experience and perhaps some input as to how to approach the publication of this article. My issues are that I cannot retrieve much information regarding the issues to do with Geoffrey of Monmouth's work, and I don't have many, if any any direct sources of my own for the subject matter. Could you recommend a book perhaps, or even better, would you contribute your source material from Cornwall on the matter please? I'd be more than happy for you @Yodin: to help edit the article to get it published correctly. Sorry I just copied and pasted my original post, I wasn't thinking really (school exam period next week), I did spend an hour altering the article slightly, but not much needs to be done really to get it up to standard. Cltjames (talk) 13:53, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm genuinely sad to say that a great deal needs to be done to the article in order to get it up to standard. It purports to be a list, but it is in fact a farrago of synthesis and original research. This is an article about a legend. It should not be a version of the pseudohistory according to legend; it should be the real story of the development of the legends and the people who elaborated them. A list, possibly formatted as a table, with brief comments on the first ascription of the title to that name, would be a good start - there's an example in List of legendary rulers of Cornwall. The List of legendary kings of Britain probably covers most of the same territory as this draft. You might want to think about how to avoid duplication.

Best wishes with your school examinations. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Rewriting

I've made a start by removing the prose sections for now (see WP:SALLEAD for the type of initial prose needed, and examples of featured lists to see the best way to apply these guidelines in practice – probably best to do this once the lists have been finalised). Next step will be to go through the lists, and work out if anything's been missed, whether they should all be added to one list, and if not, what the sections should be. Will fix the refs after reviewing the lists, to see which ones are needed. @Cltjames – don't be discouraged by this! --Yodin^T 15:02, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, good start, thanks. I found some work on JSTOR for Geoffrey of Monmouth, which I'll try adding prose for when I get some more time next week, otherwise Bartrum mentions his work briefly in the 1993 book, I'll try and cross reference that too. Also, I can't find anything online about Baglan 1607, any thoughts on his research, or analayses of the book you know of @Yodin: Cltjames (talk) 16:28, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, seeing at the article has been deconstructed, I've moved some parts to the [[History of Wales template article. I.e. Celtic Tribes, Gwynedd & Llywelyn II. Cltjames (talk) 19:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Bartrum's Welsh Classical Dictionary is a good source for details of individual legendary figures, and we could use it to find other kings, etc. that have been missed (I am a bit concerned that by concentrating on the HRB and Baglan, we're missing out most kings/rulers from genuine Welsh myths). The scholarship of Joseph Alfred Bradney's 1910 edition of the Book of Baglan still holds up, and its introduction and notes, etc. can be used to provide context. This is probably enough for the lead (again, I'd be aiming for something simple like the List of legendary rulers of Cornwall lead, rather than trying to give readers context of lots of tangential stuff: concentrating specifically on the development of the legends, rather than mixing in history), but other parts of the Wikipedia Library might provide more sources if needed. I'm not in the US, and so the HathiTrust scan isn't accessible, but I'll try to upload a copy of the scan to Commons (could also start a transcription project for it at Wikisource). --Yodin^T 22:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I managed to get hold of a copy of Bradney's 1910 edition of Baglan's book on an ancestry website, and took some screenshots. Otherwise, I feel that the Legendary kings of Scotland article holds up well with plenty of book references on the topic, and the Cornish article achieves its purpose well in displaying the facts correctly. Whilst the High Kings of Ireland article is in between, but somehow goes back to 1934 BC... A fact I believe from the settlements such as Newgrange, I wonder if there are histories from Stonehenge connected to kings of modern times. So, like I said next week I will tackle a bunch of articles on Geoffrey's book from JSTOR to find some balance to the article with text and not just a list. But I find it odd how Baglan's book has been so quietly kept, to the point we know it was transcribed in 1607, but from what sources... I haven't been able to find anything on Baglan online, and can't access the HathiTrust website either. But for sure, tbc. Cltjames (talk) 23:13, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be a stand-alone list; in which case it would be best to change the title to something like Legendary rulers of Wales, Legendary kings of Wales, or Legendary Welsh rulers (as many of the entries are not rulers of the whole of Wales). I think it will be much, much easier to get this published as a list, but am not opposed to expanding the scope as long as there's no WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. I don't want to put in much more time until I'm sure this is the case, and I think there's a good chance of passing the Draft Review process so the time we put in doesn't go to waste, but would be happy to review it when you're ready. As for Baglan – it's brilliant for us, but I think to most scholars it's just one of the many Welsh genealogies (e.g. Harleian genealogies, Genealogies from Jesus College MS 20, Bonedd Gwŷr y Gogledd), a much less ancient one at that, as you say, and mixing in Heraldic visitation-like stuff which makes it seem less reliable. That said, searching for "Book of Baglan" on Google Books returns about 9 pages of usable results, and I think Internet Archive would return many more when it's back online. --Yodin^T 13:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I've uploaded the HathiTrust scan of the 1910 edition of the Book of Baglan here: File:Llyfr Baglan; or The Book of Baglan (1910).pdf (currently without an OCR layer; can use the HathiTrust search to provide page numbers). --Yodin^T 13:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, great thanks, I recall we're looking at pages around 80-110 approx. I'll take a look at start on something this coming weekend. Cltjames (talk) 14:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Do bear in mind that the Book of Baglan consists of the detailed genealogies and heraldry of various Welsh gentry families, with some additions of legendary monarchs slightly garbled from Geoffrey of Monmouth's imagination. It doesn't seem to have attracted much interest at any time between 1607 and Joseph Bradney's edition, and very little thereafter, and it isn't an independent source for the legendary rulers. I hope you can find something of use to an encyclopedia in it. Richard Keatinge (talk) 13:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Bartrum's WCD often mentions Baglan when discussing individual legendary kings, etc., and as mentioned above, there are quite a few reliable sources that also cite the book; we should follow WP:LISTCRITERIA to determine the scope of what's included. Again, my main concern is that if the scope of the article is expanded to something like Legendary kings of Scotland, it may be difficult to provide an overview section specifically about the rulers of Wales within the Book of Baglan without either doing original research, or synthesizing from a number of different sources. All that being said, I will withold any judgement until I see what you have in mind @Cltjames! --Yodin^T 17:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I've taken the first step at completing the article by making a lede and an introductory backstory to the list. I've used JSTOR and some older sources I used in the King of Wales reverted text. Please read and talk. But basically, I believe there should be some text before the list begins. Then also, the question is how to approach the list, as in Baglan, Geoffrey or a combination of both ? Cltjames (talk) 16:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I've finished for now. I know there's lots of objections regarding the validity of Geoffrey of Monmouth's work. I have added an introduction which explains the controversy correctly. Then I've integrated texts. My only thought now would be whether the text could add in Geoffrey's king list including Dyfnwal Moelmud and his predecessor and successor as Kings of Cambria. Just that list is difficult to define, as it hasn't been done yet on Wikipedia. Again, please talk and we can find a solution. But this edition should be a rough draft and a good template as to what should be transcribed. Cltjames (talk) 17:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, to whom it may concern. I have readded what I feel to be adequate information regarding the era and people involved in comparison to today. Instead of deleting, can we please talk and cooperate to find the ultimate solution. I believe the prose I found on Geoffrey on Monmouth (==History of kings==) works well and is adequately sourced, and its just about whether all the detailing of the lists is needed or not is the question. I won't submit draft until we get a consensus and a neutral perspective. Please and thanks. Cltjames (talk) 02:43, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Again you have inserted at great length your own thoughts to synthesize an account of history as if the frank mythology had useful roots in reality. As others have pointed out, this sort of stuff may be a great basis for fantasy and fiction, but it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Your current draft needs a lot of deletion. I'm sorry to say, those deletions would include almost all of your prose. Let's stick to the list. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

The positives to me are that the prose itself is well written, and is much more toned down than the first draft. Next week is very busy for me (and I think you mentioned you had university exams next week @Cltjames); would it be ok to take a break for a week, and then perhaps we could start discussing aspects of what's in the article on a case by case basis, to try to show what we think wouldn't get through the draft review process? --Yodin^T 12:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Wait, have just noticed you also deleted the HRB kings I was drafting (Rudaucus, and the kings of Venedotia and Demetia)! 😂 --Yodin^T 12:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, to update. I'm fine with a cull, I just simply wanted to put out the full potential as a gauge of where I was and what I did. So, I will go ahead and trim the article and take another look. @Yodin:, as for your list, I didn't delete it in full, I moved Cadwallon Lawhir into the list of post Roman kings, but I didn't know what to do with the rest, because I specified the list was of Welsh kings, and I didn't see any link between the kings to Wales or Cambria at that. But by all means, please explain how we could add those names, and then we can take it from there to try to merge or adjust some lists. So, I've removed plenty about Brutus, but kept some stucture, any ideas how to improve the article now ?Cltjames (talk) 15:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

So, in the Historia Regum Britanniae ("The History of the Kings of Britain"), Geoffrey seems to have invented Camber as the namesake and first ruler of Cambria. No successors are mentioned, until Rudaucus (book 2, chapter 17), who is named as the king of Cambria during the pentarchy. At some unspecified point after this in the HRB, Wales is divided into two kingdoms: North Wales (which he calls Venedotia), and South Wales (which he calls Demetia), and several of these kings are named through the rest of the HRB, while no further kings of the whole of Wales/Cambria are given. You seem to have taken one of these kings of Venedotia (Cadwallon Lawhir) and removed the rest. If you would rather this be a list purely of figures who were claimed to be rulers of the entirety of Wales, we should probably remove all of the "Governors of North Cambria", and "Kings of Welsh Kingdoms as King of Britain". As for any ideas how to improve the article now ? – again, I would suggest taking a break, and discussing some time after next week – but as Richard Keatinge says above, I think there still seems to be a huge gap between the article as it is now, and the consensus of all other editors who have raised their concerns above. --Yodin^T 17:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Just a question, do you have a book reference about how Geoffrey invented Camber which could be added to the text? Otherwise, I've readded the table you inserted, and I've titled it ==Kings of Demetia (South Wales), but we now have a duplication of a few king entries. In terms of my input, that's about all I can conjure for now, and feel the structure is well presented now, we just have to dissect what should be kept and removed or added. Cltjames (talk) 17:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Will see what I can find. 🙂 --Yodin^T 17:59, 26 October 2024 (UTC)