Talk:Richard D'Oyly Carte

Americanisation of pronunciation

I have removed a good faith insertion of a rhotic R into the IPA version of Carte's name. If anyone wants to add an extra American pronunciation, so be it, but it would be a dereliction not to have as the primary pronunciation how it is pronounced in English usage, and how we know from recordings how his son Rupert D'Oyly Carte and granddaughter Dame Bridget D'Oyly Carte pronounced it. Tim riley talk 18:31, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi, regarding English IPA on Wikipedia, we use a diaphonemic system that broadly represents both RP and GenAm as well as it can. Thus, on the first link you'll see that /ɑːr/ is how START is transcribed, even though most Brits certainly say /ɑː/ for START. You can see this same IPA convention employed, for instance, on British placename articles like Cardiff, Carlisle, Hertford, Derby, etc. etc. Wolfdog (talk) 18:44, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if other editors will agree that we should show as the primary pronunciation a pronunciation that the Cartes did not use rather than the one they did. Comments welcome. Tim riley talk 18:50, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

This is an English name that was pronounced the same (non-rhotically) by all members of the Carte family, all of whom were English, and should always be pronounced without the rhotic "r". I (an American) disagree strongly with Wolfdog, and I would also disagree with adding any second pronunciation. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:06, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree that including a rhotic "r" is undesirable in this case.Bkesselman (talk) 20:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

If we know how they pronounced it (which we do from recordings) and that use is still the commonly used version, then I think it best we stick with it. - SchroCat (talk) 19:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

All your arguments makes sense and I hear you, but it's just simply not what we do on Wikipedia. What we could do is add a "UK" label to the IPA formatting. That shows a nation-specific pronunciation. I'm happy to do that. (But notice, for instance, if you wanted to transcribe the French-originating surname Caire for a Briton, there's no option in our WP convention for /kɛə/; you literally have to use the r-including /kɛər/. So it's not really about our personal feelings on the matter; it's about an established WP convention.) Wolfdog (talk) 20:39, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

But in this case it is the British pronunciation which is standard. If one wished to have an alternative pronunciation it would need a US label, but this seems unnecessary.Bkesselman (talk) 20:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

It’s not about “personal feelings” (with or without italics), it’s about how the family pronounced their name, and how it is still pronounced correctly. SchroCat (talk) 21:19, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

You both seem not to be hearing me. The way a family name, given name, etc. is pronounced is still affected by one's accent. Let's take some other British names here on WP. The Chiwetel Ejiofor article says /ˈɛdʒioʊfɔːr/, which on WP means say [-foəɹ] for GenAm and [-fɔː] for RP. Piers Morgan says /pɪərz/, which on WP means [piəɹz] for GenAm, [pɪəz] for RP. This is the same situation. A convention has already been established. Again, just see Help:IPA/English. Wolfdog (talk) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps, Wolfdog, you'd point us in the direction of the Wikipedia policy that says that IPA transcriptions are all to be based on American pronunciation? If there is one, we can reconsider how to explain to our readers how the names are actually pronounced by those who own them. Tim riley talk 21:52, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Tim Riley is correct. Having checked the IPA help page linked above, my interpretation is that RP should be used, and it is then up to the speaker to decide whether they interpret the phonetics to reflect their own pronunciation. In this case, an American speaker may choose to use a rhotic "r" or not, but the IPA should most definitely not include one.Bkesselman (talk) 21:58, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Tim, I have in no way recommended American pronunciations as the basis for anything -- only Wikipedia pronunciations using the template IPAc-en. And I've given you the policy already: Help:IPA/English. So long as we're using IPAc-en, then This key represents diaphonemes, abstractions of speech sounds that accommodate General American, Received Pronunciation (RP) and to a large extent [other varieties of English]. Also, see the very first two sentences of this MoS policy for IPAc-en, and notice that the example given in fact includes the very /r/ we've been discussing (in a particularly British placename too, Oxford): It is often possible to transcribe a word in a generic way that is not specific to any one accent, e.g. Oxford as /ˈɒksfərd/. Speakers of non-rhotic accents, as in much of Australia, England, New Zealand, and Wales, will pronounce the second syllable [fəd]. Bkesselman, I'm not sure where you're getting your interpretations; please provide quotes or policy, as I've done. Wolfdog (talk) 22:16, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Try as I may I can't interpret the IPA help page as Wolfdog does. It seems to me that he is on a one-person mission here, and unless he can rapidly assemble a consensus here in favour of his contentions I suggest we regard the matter as closed. Tim riley talk 22:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Given it’s a help page, rather than a policy or guideline, I think I would agree. - SchroCat (talk) 22:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Wolfdog, here is a quote from the page you link to.

"Let's pick some grapes for Betty should be transcribed ... regardless of the variety of English and everyone should interpret that transcription according to their own dialect." (I'm not currently able to copy the IPA, hence the ellipsis.)Bkesselman (talk) 22:42, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Right, haha, that sentence bolsters my point! Look at the example of how the broad IPA system transcribes the word "for" (in "grapes for Betty"): it gives the example transcribed as /fər/ (not /fə/). Rhotic transcription is maintained in the IPA system. (Tim, that alone doesn't make the system "American" or an "Americanisation". Wikipedia conventions also maintain the phoneme /ɒ/, which one could just as well argue makes it more British!) Wolfdog (talk) 23:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

You make a valid point and I understand where you are coming from. Bkesselman (talk) 08:24, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Many thanks to Wolfdog for taking the arguments above on board and making the appropriate change. Tim riley talk 20:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Wolfdog is definitely not "on a one-person mission". Help:IPA/English may not have the status of official WP policy, but it is widespread practice across all Wikipedia articles to use the diaphonemic transcription outlined there. Speakers of non-rhotic accents are not the only ones who are allowed to utter the name D'Oyly Carte, and when rhotic speakers pronounce it, they pronounce the r. This is not an American vs. British issue, since not all rhotic speakers are American, or even North American. When English speakers from Scotland, Ireland, or Devon pronounce this name, they pronounce it with an r. The tooltips of {{IPAc-en}} make it clear that /ɑːr/ in the transcription does not mean that the /r/ is necessarily pronounced; it means that the sequence is to pronounced just like the ar in start, however that word is pronounced in any given speaker's accent. If we transcribe it /kɑːt/ then we are saying that everyone, rhotic and nonrhotic alike, pronounces it "kaht", which is untrue. Rather, everyone pronounces it as a homophone of cart, however they pronounce that. And that's what /kɑːrt/ says. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:33, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Incidentally, the fact that the most famous members of the family happened to be non-rhotic speakers is irrelevant. My name contains the GOAT vowel; when an RP speaker uses my name I expect them to pronounce it [əʊ] as is normal in RP, and when a Scottish English speaker uses my name I expect them to pronounce it [oː] as in normal in Scottish English, even though neither of those is my own pronunciation. Just because it's my name, that doesn't give me the authority to override other people's native accents. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:39, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

And although Help:IPA/English is not, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation is a guideline. It is Kafkaesque to see Wolfdog and you being chided for simply applying WP:CONLEVEL. Nardog (talk) 09:28, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Again, these are valid points. I suppose that (to explain any controversy), many might wish to protect their own choice or tradition of pronunciation. I'm actually not sure that it was necessary to provide any pronunciation guide to this particular name, but I have no personal objection to either version (though one is more natural to me than the other). Bkesselman (talk) 14:51, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Good heavens! Nobody is telling anybody how they must pronounce a name. English, French and American speakers of my acquaintance all pronounce the name Aristotle so differently as to make it seem almost like three different names. (How he himself pronounced it I shouldn't dare speculate.) What the pronunciation guide here is for is not to tell people 'You must pronounce the name this way', but, merely factually, 'This is how the people concerned pronounced it.' Tim riley talk 15:09, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps 2 pronunciations could be included (labelled suitably), as happens with other words on Wikipedia. Bkesselman (talk) 15:13, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

As I indicated above, User:Bkesselman, I strongly believe that including two stupid pronunciation guides would be the worst outcome here. We have a consensus above, and I don't understand why Mahagaja should be allowed to edit war to change it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:47, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

It seems that Bkesselman's proposal for two pronunciations is the only way forward (although it would be redundant). Ssilvers, how in the world would providing two pronunciations be the worst outcome? It provides both the diaphonemic transcription we normally use on lead sentences as well as a transcription that is more particularly British/specific to the family's own accent. This is literally providing every possibility that is desired by editors here (which, we are lucky only amounts to TWO possibilities: very doable!). Here's how it would look: /ˈdɔɪli kɑːrt/, UK: /kɑːt/. Wolfdog (talk) 16:16, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Because this is an encyclopedia, not a list of pronunciations. Conciseness is far more important in an encyclopedia article. If the above discussion proves anything, it is that the pronunciation guide is not very helpful or useful at all. However, I am not in favor of deleting it, since that would just lead to ongoing and repeated arguments about it. So let's leave it alone and move on to more important things. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:52, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I suppose ideally we could do as the OED does and give both English and American pronunciations (English /kɑːt/, US /kɑrt/) but as WP doesn't do that I concur with Ssilvers that we should stick with the status quo. Tim riley talk 18:46, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Giving both English and American pronunciations is exactly what the WP diaphonemic system does! 😂 Wolfdog (talk) 18:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Except that it doesn't: how does your /ˈdɔɪli kɑːrt/; reflect the English pronunciation? Tim riley talk 18:54, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it absolutely does. Its whole purpose is to incorporate both a standard American and a standard British accent into one system, for the umpteenth time. Again: See the very first two sentences of this MoS policy: It is often possible to transcribe a word in a generic way that is not specific to any one accent, e.g. Oxford as /ˈɒksfərd/. Speakers of non-rhotic accents, as in much of Australia, England, New Zealand, and Wales, will pronounce the second syllable [fəd], while rhotic accents will pronounce it [fəɹd]. Wolfdog (talk) 13:03, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Alas, readers familiar with the real-world IPA cannot be expected to guess that Wikipedia has its own esoteric phonetic system in which the pronunciation symbols mean "this unless you'd rather pronounce it that". Why not follow the OED and give the accepted pronunciations in English and American? We are supposed to help our readers rather than confusing them. Tim riley talk 14:13, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps it would ease controversy to delete the guide completely. I think this may otherwise turn out to be a never-ending cycle. I notice that there is none for other family members. (Hopefully no one will now add one to those now.) Bkesselman (talk) 15:58, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

This is a non-issue: as long as the IPAc-en template is used, MOS:DIAPHONEMIC applies. If you disagree with it, take it to either Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Pronunciation or Help talk:IPA/English. Sol505000 (talk) 00:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I’m glad you seem to be able to use that talk page, but maybe you should do so without the edit warring and rather arrogant edit summaries. Perhaps you could try and discuss civilly here? - SchroCat (talk) 21:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• What on earth is wrong with people that they are so arrogant that they continue to edit war even after someone has been blocked? And to tell untruths about IPA being a policy, when it really isn’t (it’s a guideline) and, like a lot of the MOS, flexible. - SchroCat (talk) 16:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Making a new thread as this debate has got too heated. I think it needs to be stated from scratch. MOS:DIAPHONEMIC sets out the best way of transcribing pronunciation of names in a generic way that it is not specific to any accent, which it is the Wikipedia norm to do where possible. Help:IPA/English defines the Wikipedia diaphonemic transcription system. /ɑːr/ is defined as the pronunciation of the embolded part of START in the speaker's native accent. It does not imply pronouncing an /r/ if the reader is a non-rhotic speaker. This is not an "Americanisation" of the pronunciation. American English is not the only rhotic accent of English; there are rhotic accents in the UK: Scottish English, Ulster English, many speakers of West Country English and some speakers of Lancashire English. Nor does it mean that the transcription system favours American English in general. The transcription system is designed to account for distinctions made in all major varities of English. It includes the distinction between /ɑːr/ and /ɑː/ made in General American but not Received Pronunciation, but it also includes distinctions such as /ɑː/ and /ɒ/ made in RP but not General American.

The diaphonemic policy is standar on Wikipedia. used on names from all over the English speaking world, not just on names from England.

For other examples of names from England, see the Wikipedia pronunciation transcriptions on the articles for Birmingham /ˈbɜːrmɪŋəm/, Derby /ˈdɑːrbi/, Manchester (/ˈmæntʃɪstər/. All of them include postvocalic /r/ that is not sounded in the local non-rhotic accent.

But, here's the thing, look at how Arizona /ˌærɪˈzoʊnə/ and Tucson (/ˈtuːsɒn/ are transcribed on their respective articles. General American, and the varieties of American English spoken in these placs, lacks a /ɒ/ phoneme, and pronounces the sequence /ær/ as /ɛr/. Are we inappropriately giving a "British" pronunciation of these American place names? No, we are transcribing them in a way such that the pronunciation is predictable in any major accent. It is predictable that in most American accents, what is transcribed as /ær/ will be pronounced as /ɛr/ and what it transcribed as /ɒ/ will be pronounced as /ɑːr/.

I would also note that, in many cases, transcribing a name in a non-rhotic way is not even possible, even if the name is British. If you attempt to transcribe /ɛə/, /ɪə/ or /ʊə/ under {{IPAc-en}} without the following /r/, it will return /ɛər/, /ɪər/ and /ʊər/. Offa29 (talk) 17:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Why you edit war when there was a thread already open and obvious disagreement? Why did you falsely claim it is a policy, whe it is nothing of the sort, but a guideline, flexible and not compulsory. - SchroCat (talk) 18:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I have only made one edit to the article, so I have not "edit warred". I stated my reasons for starting a new thread. You now seem intent on derailing this attempt at a fresh start as well, by writing in a deliberately provocative, inflammatory way rather than attempting to engage in debate. Your use of provocative language and name-calling was one of the main reasons I felt that a fresh start to the debate is needed (the other was that almost all the previous debate, and all the substantive arguments in it, happened well over a year ago, so I felt it was better to set out all the main arguments again from scratch rather then them being lost as separate posts in a massive thread). Offa29 (talk) 18:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

You’ve continued an edit war that someone started yesterday. They were blocked for it, but that doesn’t seem to worry you, which says a lot about your approach. Any editor with any sense of decency would self-revert to the very long-standing consensus and just discuss on the talk page. I doubt you’ll do that, however. I’ve merged the two threads as they are about the same subject and open at the same time, and it’s ridiculous to have a second one. - SchroCat (talk) 19:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I am well of the three-revert rule and would take great care not to violate it.

I note that you archived this thread only yesterday, so it is interesting to see that you've now pivoted to wanting to keep the thread open.

'Much of your input into the debate over the past couple of days has, in my opinion, been uncivil. It has fallen short of what is expected of Wikipedia editors as set out in WP:CIVIL. This includes comments like Why did you falsely claim it is a policy", "What on earth is wrong with people that they are so arrogant", "Any editor with any sense of decency would".

I do not think that these comments comply with the warnings against “rudeness, insults, name-calling” and the direction to WP:Assume good faith. Writing ’’’’why did you falsely claim’’” does not assume good faith.

The page warns that incivil comments “disrupt the project”, which has happened to this discussion. When a discussion has turned as toxic as this has, it is virtually impossible to de-escalate back to civil discussion.

The last civil discussion in this thread happened 18 months ago, and it is normal after that length of time to start a new discussion rather than attempt to continue an old one where all the points are hidden away, apart from each other in a lengthly thread that is overwhelming to read as a newcomer, and had long since drifted away from the intial principles of the discussion.

It is clear to me that no productive discussion will come from attempting to resurrect a thread from 18 months ago that has seen only toxic incivility since its revival. This thread is beyond salvage.

A fresh start, and a new thread, is needed, where we can jettison the baggage that this discussion has built up. I should have archived the thread when I made the new one, but I am not used to doing this.

But, given how toxic this discussion has become and how frayed all tempers, including mine have become, a break is needed for us to all cool down before starting a productive discission.

I will take some time out, then in due course, archive this thread and make a new one where we can go back to first principles of the debate and discuss the matter anew. I will seek consensus for the change I wish to make. This is the only way forward.

In the meantime, I would strongly advise you to read through all the Wikipedia material on civility, reflect on whether or not your comments over the past couple of days have lived up to what is expected of Wikipedia editors, and take care to adhere to the spirit of the civility policy in future. Offa29 (talk) 23:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Take the patronising civility policing elsewhere: I have zero interest in your thoughts on it, particularly a whole wall of tiresome text. Such patronising dross will only ever wind people up. If you archive this thread, I will bring it back here again: there are very good arguments presented here that you cannot just hide because you want to, no matter how much you want to bloat the thread will walls of tedium no-one is going to read or take seriously. - SchroCat (talk) 04:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

There are not only no "very good" arguments in this thread, but no arguments at all. How many Britons in the last 48 hours do you think have gone and looked into the new prime minister? Are they reeling from that dasterrrrrdly US tag on the ɪə? No more than Americans from the length marks in 'Barack Obama' I expect. Nevertheless, you are a true victim of inhumane treatment here; that is, seasoned editors letting a discussion which they know full well can have but one conclusion agonizingly stagger on through the years instead of just ripping the band-aid off. Célestine-Edelweiß (talk) 01:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Please focus on the issue and engage in a civil manner. Further poking will result in a block. Johnuniq (talk) 05:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

As a follow-up to one aspect of this discussion (or rather as a follow-up to Help talk:IPA/English#Edit warring at Richard D'Oyly Carte), I have opened a request for comment: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics#RfC: Should we keep our non-standard use of single slashes to enclose diaphonemic transcriptions? Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics#RfC: Should we keep delimiting diaphonemic transcriptions with single slashes? --mach 🙈🙉🙊 21:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Protected

I have fully protected the article for a week and will watch here for a while. Ask me or any admin to remove protection once a clear consensus is obtained. Warning: To avoid edit-warring blocks, please be sure that there is a clear consensus before changing the pronunciation again. Johnuniq (talk) 05:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

The very long-standing status quo has now been edit warred away by people who don’t think discussion is warranted. There won’t be a consensus unless it’s one they are happy to bully into place. Reminds me of another group of editors who are disruptive in achieving their aims. - SchroCat (talk) 05:46, 7 July 2024 (UTC)