Talk:Two-spirit

Removed terms

• Blackfeet
  • Male: Aki-skassi
  • Female: Aki-Gwan

I removed the above terms as there is no source and no indication of which group called "Blackfeet" uses those terms. It is not the Blackfoot of the Blackfoot Nation located in Montana. Hyacinth 20:20, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

See http://www.nwtwospiritsociety.org/history.html Ronabop 12:47, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The article linked to above doesn't specify any more than the wikipedia article does.

1. See: Blackfoot. WHICH Blackfoot group uses the terms?
2. According to Bruno Nettl (1989) there is no documentation of MTF (for lack of a better term) Two-Spirit folks, while there are well documented FTM or "manly hearted women".

Hyacinth 22:30, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

a'kiikoan ~ aakiikoan, which is probably what was meant by "Aki-Gwan", simply is the word for "girl", composed of a'kii ~ aakii "woman" and -koan "person" (the latter as in siksikakoan "Blackfoot person" etc.). So, sorry, no "manly hearted woman" here. The terms (Siksika A a'kiihka'si "acting like a woman", aawoowa'kii "misaligned woman"), with dialectal variation (Siksika A/B, Kainaa-Piikani A/B/C), are in use with all groups. In case of doubt, you may look up words in Frantz/Russell's dictionary, curricula and researchers' fieldnotes. Heike B.22:25, 10 Apr 2006 (CEDT)

"not 'traditional'" and "not accepted by 'traditional' people"

LokiTheLiar, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Within community there are traditional elders and Elders that do not use the term Two Spirit, they instead choose to use the appropriate term in their language. Language retention and revitalization is incredibly important and I personally understand the desire for traditional people to relearn or continue to use traditional descriptors rather than a term in English. Could you please clarify how this relates to a Bat Mitzvah? I really know very little about Judaism so I had to do some googling. From what I understand, Judith Kaplan was the first person to have a Bat Mitzvah in the United States. I have read conflicting this as to when the first actual ceremony was but let's say it was Judith. This would make the Bat Mitzvah ceremony new(ish) but you say it is widely accepted by traditional Jews. The term Two-spirit is new, it is not traditional and it is not widely accepted by traditional people for the reasons I gave above. If I am a girl who likes girls or a man who lives like a woman, my elders aren't going to have a problem with that, however they will use our language to describe these spaces we hold rather than use a new English word that is rather broad and, well, English. I hope I've made sense. Indigenous girl (talk) 02:28, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The analogy: a "bat mitzvah" is a fairly recent invention (for a very long time there were bar mitzvahs and no bat mitzvahs) and therefore not a traditional part of Jewish practice. However even Orthodox Jews (= traditionalists) do them; they're entirely mainstream within the community. Therefore, those two things are not the same: being traditional and being accepted by traditional people are not the same thing.

And as for the rest of that: maybe it's right and maybe it's not, but the source doesn't support it. It supports that the term is not traditionally used but not that it isn't supported by traditional people. The point of the analogy is that they are different things and you can't use a source that says one of them to mean the other. Loki (talk) 03:01, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for responding! I appreciate you clearing that up. I know plenty of traditionals that are this way. I made the assumption it was in the source. Indigenous girl (talk) 03:19, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: History of Sexuality

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 September 2023 and 22 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Wikiassign0923 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Nyxtingale (talk) 16:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Offensive terms?

We can't just state that something is offensive, without stating to whom it is offensive and citing evidence. It's a subjective term. Also, "to replace the offensive, anthropological terms that were still in wide use.[5] While "two-spirit" has been controversial since its adoption,[6] the term has experienced more academic and social acceptance than the derogatory anthropological term it replaced." seems to tiptoe round the 'anthropological term(s)' being replaced without naming them.

Can anyone enlighten readers about this? DavidFarmbrough (talk) 04:01, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

The term is berdache, source Encyclopedia Britannica and various ones linked on that WL. It's so offensive, I suppose someone didn't even want to list it on this article.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 04:34, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Male-bodied two-spirit people, regardless of gender identification, can go to war...

...and have access to male activities such as male-only sweat lodge ceremonies. Is this universal? The article makes it clear there is a lot of variety amongst different native american cultures, so it would be surprising and noteworthy if this claim was true about all of them. I can't check the source because it no longer works. LastDodo (talk) 14:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

List of two-spirit people

I think List of two-spirit people might be a helpful list. Thoughts? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:32, 13 January 2024 (UTC)