Wikipedia talk:India Education Program/Archive 3

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Vandalism now

Vandalism to various student list pages has now begun by IP users who geolocate to India. I suspect that thee are students who are not logging in.

Would CAs please keep these class list pages on their watchlists and provide us with a single generic IEP student list that we can import into our raw watchlists.

If the vandalism continues, the IPs will be blocked and this will affect all computers on those networks.

--Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The copyright violations continue at large scale...

In the past few days students of the Wikipedia:India Education Program/Courses/Fall 2011/Computer Organization and Advanced Microprocessing course have been adding huge amounts of low-quality contents to the articles assigned to them. A large scale of the stuff I have inspected so far is copyrighted material lifted from text books and online sources (sometimes with minor changes), but it is impossible to keep up with inspecting and evaluating the edits at an individual basis, since there are so many. Also, some students have begun to reinsert stuff that has been deleted because of copyright violations. This is not tolerable and we must find a solution to this problem immediately. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 09:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

We've been begging for solutions for weeks now and regular Wikipedians who have volunteered to help with the painstaking work of copyvio tracing are now taking leave. Just warn the editors in the usual manner, list the affected pages and the editors here, and admins watching this page will review the situation and protect the pages or block the editors as required. Thanks for your help. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:10, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid, so far I have not found a single of those articles which has not been contaminated with copyrighted or suspicious material. As much as I hate to say this (because I very much support the idea to improve the education of the youth), it would probably be better to blindly revert any and all edits by these students carried out over the past weeks, or simply roll back the articles to the state before the start of the project and then reinsert those edits by others and the occasional good edit by those students. All in all, this would take several orders less time and effectively cause much less harm to the articles then trying to evaluate and clean up the articles on an edit-by-edit basis (always risking to overlook something) which would be painful work for weeks if not months. We could mass roll back edits on the basis of their missing edit summaries.

I really don't understand why students are continuing to add stuff like this up to the present - I mean, by now it must have been communicated to any of them more than once in no uncertain language, that copyright violations are not tolerable here or anywhere else. I don't know about other countries, but over here, if a student is found to trick in exams or to declare other people's work as his own, he would be expulsed from university. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 11:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Apparently plagiarism is a sign of respect in India. But yeah, it's beyond belief now. I strongly suggest reverting and/or sending stuff off to Wikipedia:Copyright problems, then forgetting about it. MER-C 12:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Plagiarism reflects well on the source copied in any culture (we just call it a citation count). However it's never a way to produce good articles, not even in India. I care less about the sourcing of these than I do about their low quality. Do none of these students read their pages after they've edited them?

We have to remember though that we're dealing with students. Students want marks, so they're going to act in a way to keep their immmediate tutors happy, far more than they'll care about some bunch at Wikipedia. We can't blame them for this. It's the tutors whose behaviour we need to change first. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It's no good complaining here any more. Please list the pages and the offending editors here and it will be looked into by admins who are watching this page. To get anything done you will all have to lobby the two people who are apparently in charge of this project: User:Hisham who is ultimately respjnsible for the India programme, and is generally approachable and responsive, and User:Nitika.t, the second in command, who remains totally incommunicado. Failing that, bring your concerns to the attention of the directors of the WMF.--Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:10, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Commons:User_talk:Nitika.t isn't encouraging. If the organisers themselves don't understand how something as simple as Commons image permissions work, then how can anything progress? This stuff isn't hard, it just indicates a lack of prioritisation to take it at all seriously. No user page should have both "I am a WMF Consultant" and no-permission deletions on it. If you want one, you first have to learn about the other. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I have gone through the list of courses and if I haven't overlooked anything, there is now only one course deadline still open until November 14. I have therefore added the following box at the top of the course's page to remind the participants to stick to WP policies:

I also added two more items to their "todo list":

• Make sure the following code has been added to the top of the discussion page of any of the articles you edit(ed):

{{IEP assignment|course=Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Courses/Fall_2011/Macroeconomics|university=Symbiosis School of Economics|term=2011 Q3}}

• Make sure that you have added the following code to your user page:

{{User WikiProject India Education Program}}

This will create a small info box and identify you as participant in this program.

I don't know if this will help at all, but under the circumstances, we can at least try to bring this to the students' attention once more. And with such two weeks "advance warning" they should have more than enough time to adjust accordingly. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 23:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Question: Do these templates contain a script that populates relevant global categories for 1) IEP articles and 2) participants (students, organisers, online/campus ambassadors, cleaner-uppers)? --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:17, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Rudimentary:

{{Template:IEP assignment}} populates a category named "Category:India Education Program student projects[, <term>]" with <term> being a placeholder for the string "2011 Q3" most of the time.

The {{Template:User WikiProject India Education Program}} puts a user in "Category:Wikipedians in the India Education Program".

I'm not the author of these templates, but I agree, it could be useful to extend them to help us tag, group, organize and monitor the clean-up status of the articles and users. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 04:30, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

In addition to placing the IEP assignment template (with its parameters adapted accordingly) at the top of discussion pages of any mainspace articles (including redirects) I have found to be assigned to and/or edited by one of the students, I have also started to add the following new section at the bottom of those discussion pages where a quick look over the edit summary revealed that they have been edited by one of the students over the past weeks. This may help to raise attention to the problem among the readers:

---8X--- Snippet start ---8X---

== Look out for possible copyright violations in this article == This article has been found to be edited by students of the [[Wikipedia:India Education Program]] project as part of their course-work. Unfortunately, many of the edits in this program so far have been identified as plain copy-jobs from books and online resources and therefore had to be reverted. See the [[Wikipedia talk:India Education Program|India Education Program talk page]] for details. In order to maintain the WP standards and policies, let's all have a careful eye on this and other related articles to ensure that no material violating copyrights remains in here. --~~~~

---8X--- Snippet end ---8X---

--Matthiaspaul (talk) 05:00, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I have now added the "IEP assignment" template and the "Lookout for copyvio" text snippet to all articles currently listed under Wikipedia:India Education Program/Courses/Fall 2011/Macroeconomics#Students. However, some articles have not been assigned to yet, are still missing or have been deleted already, so we'll have to monitor changes to this table or hope the students will add the template themselves. Also, we'd have to go over all the other courses and add this as well. Either way, this does not keep students from working on other articles (not listed in the table) as well (as has been the case with the other courses).

Given that this will amount to hundreds of edits, perhaps this can be automated so that we'd "only" have to compile a list of articles (or revise a tool-generated list of all pages edited by any of the students)? --Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:02, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I can automate it. Just give me a neat list of pages and a message, and I'll do the rest. I'm not using a bot, though (I'm using the API with my account, this is allowed as long as I don't go too fast and check my edits) ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 11:31, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Here is a list of all the pages missing the IEP template on their talk pages. I will automatically edit them once my BRFA pushes through (I'd rather not check every single automated edit when I'm doing hundreds of pages, so it's better to get a bot account and do it). ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 15:34, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Nuking userspaces

I'm participating in copyright and general low-quality-edit-reversion cleanup that Nikita is organizing. The instructions she gave us were to first deal with mainspace edits, then with userspace edits. It has occurred to me that all of the userspaces should just be nuked (maybe in a few weeks to give the instructors the chance to do whatever they need to do?), perhaps with a note saying to ask an admin if you want it restored--at which point, a copyvio review could be performed. I don't think it's worth analyzing the userspace content page by page--better to delete it all. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the policy aspects of nuking userspace pages before doing copyvio check - but you 're the legal-eagle and know best. I think we were basically organised here at community level to combat copyvio from the IEP long before Nitika fully understood the implications of the problems herself. At the root of the problem is the East/West culture dichotomy in respect of plagiarism issues. Nevertheless The western community has rallied round and done an excellent job, and in doing so has also significantly reduced the general patrolling backlog. The various comments around the site have however demonstrated that regular users are now getting tired and frustrated with this (I've spent over 100 hours on it myself), and the graph will now slowly creep back up. I sincerely wish Nitika every success with her endeavours. at ground zero, and she should not hesitate to communicate her needs to the community - preferably through open communication. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:11, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Checking for Copyvios

Hey all. I've been looking through Object Oriented Modeling and Design (an IEP course) and so far, almost every contribution I have found so far is a copyright violation. There are still articles to go through and several students have simply recreated the deleted content in their userspace and are using that for the course (still a copyright violation). I'm finding it overwhelming and could use some help with this course's article if not with its ambassadors and instructor. OlYeller21^Talktome 17:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

As a note, my work so far can be found here. The notes in the "Comments/Remarks" section are mine. If there's no note, it means I haven't checked the contents of that article yet. OlYeller21^Talktome 17:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

NOTE: For anyone not familiar with page patrolling methods, instructions for locating and checking copyvio are at WP:NPP - scroll down until you see the two yellow warning triangles. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:16, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Why are we encouraging this?

Just my 2 cents - but I can't believe we are tolerating this programme, let alone encouraging it. It is resulting in large-scale vandalism and is seemingly being undertaken purely for the benefit of the Indian education system - it is most definitely not benefitting the project. Wasn't this entirely predictable? Surely good content comes from editors who have taken the time to learn Wikipedia's policies and who have the willingness and expertise to contribute. If so, had these students spent time learning Wikipedia's policies before being compelled to write on their subjects? And have they any expertise in their subjects? It appears these edits are overwhelmingly from people who are not familiar with policy, who probably entered into the task without enthusiasm and who are using the exercise as a means to learn their subject rather than impart any real knowledge. Wikipedia is worse for it; the IEP is surely not enhancing its reputation either. RichardOSmith (talk) 17:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I think the project is salvageable and could be very valuable to everyone involved. It seems to me that there was a lack of planning as far as how things would play out. It seems like there was a grey area where a course would "use Wikipedia to teach" and that wasn't really fleshed out and if it was, I think that, as you pointed out, the issues could have been predicted and countermeasures set in place.

What I wonder is, is this the pains of making such a large step in a tangent direction that can be overcome or is the education program a project/program that won't ever work? I don't like the idea of never being able to make something work and I believe that this can be fixed.

I think we have two things that need to happen and we seem to be doing both but I'm not sure how organized the effort is.

1. - Quarantine the damage and work on correcting it. Compile a list of all edits/articles made by students in all education programs and sift through them for issues.
2. - Make sure it doesn't happen again. Design a system where ambassadors/institutes/instructors are held accountable for the actions of students. Also, design a system where all of the actions of students are easily monitored by those people and any editor who wishes to assist the program in checking for problematic edits.

I've seen other users doing great work on number one but students continue to make more problematic edits so it seems that number one can't be solved until number two is. Number two is much more difficult to solve. Holding people accountable on Wikipedia can be difficult given our jurisdiction. The question that keeps popping up in my head is if number one and two can be solved while the program is still in full swing and continuing to grow. The program may need to stop so that the current and future damage can be handled but as I believe we're still attempting to assess the damage, it's hard to make that claim without hard numbers. OlYeller21^Talktome 20:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It's too late to stop it now: the deadline is November 18 (I think). I have volunteered to work on the first (still waiting for that list from the WMF) and next time around there will be a request for arbitration regarding the IEP before it starts; after all, the Wikipedia community has significant discretion over who edits here and what contributions to accept. MER-C 01:45, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a request for arbitration will have any effect, or that Arbcom is even the venue for such a discussion. The WMF has a history of creating Foundation-wide projects without any consultation of the vast volunteer community, and has a more recent history of declining proposals for changes to page and image creation policy made by the various Wikipedia language communities that were reached by clear consensus following highly subscribed central discussions. However, this approach may be slowly improving, and some Wikipedians are now collaborating closely with the WMF to develop important new tools for page patrollers, and new users. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

The difference between this and WP:ACTRIAL is that ACTRIAL required the WMF server admins to change the wiki configuration (and they declined to do so). Similarly, MoodBar, AFT, etc. are merely interface changes: they do not change the actual content of the encyclopedia directly; it is the users who use these extensions that do. It's their servers, the WMF can run whatever software they want on them regardless of community opinion on the matter.

On the other hand, banning all IEP participants or deleting/reverting their contributions does not require a server configuration change. The Foundation cannot interfere with Wikipedia content unless pursuant to OCILLA or for other legal reasons. See also this comment from arbitrator Risker. MER-C 05:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up on those differences - it bridges an important gap in my understanding of the divide between the community and the WMF, and which is extremely unclear for most people. I read that post by Risker when they made it two weeks ago and it very neatly summarised the situation and the possibly policy issues behind it, although I didn't immedately appreciate some of the implications for the reasons you pointed out above. My concern is that as threads get longer, those who should take most notice, and in this case the WMF be they in the USA or India, only read the last post on a page when they finally sit up and take notice. I keep seeing and hearing statements such as 'We're listening to you all you and we're doing everything possible' both on and off Wiki, but it's the same kind of polictician-speak we get such as during the unprecedented summer riots across the UK, and the current flooding of the worst ever here in Thailand. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:36, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

This total fuckup mess has left me with an impression that colleges and universities in India don't care about plagiarism ("Copyvio" in WP jargon). In all most western universities and colleges plagiarism by a student results in expulsion and any lecturer that knowingly tolerates it also faces very serious consequences. IMHO the best solution would be to rollback all edits by all participants in this disaster experiment as soon as it is over. (It has also done nothing to improve my opinion of India as a nation.) Roger (talk) 12:11, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Having studied both in the US and India, I can verify that teachers here do not care about plagiarism. Most projects are directly copy-pasted, and the teachers don't bat an eyelid even when they know that it is copy pasted (Rather easy to tell when all the students turn in the same content). Bibliographies contain only google.com and en.wikipedia.org. So the fierce attitude towards plagiarism that starts at an early level in the US just isn't present here. And this same attitude was taken by granted by the WMF when they started the IEP (can't blame them...). So, where a long, scary session on plagiarism was needed, they probably just said "don't plagiarize" and left it at that. And it's not really the country's fault, either. Teachers just don't have the time to check assignments thoroughly (too many students to take care of), and would let sleeping dogs lie. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 15:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

One thing this whole mess has demonstrated is that Wikipedia is absolutely full of copyvio emanating from everywhere, not just these hapless Indian students. For example, I just checked Financial system because it had been edited by an IEP student. It consisted almost entirely of verbatim pastes from copyright publications and websites. However, while a small amount of this came from that student, the vast majority was long standing and quite flagrant. Interestingly, in 2009 the London Business School quoted (and credited) a part of the Wikipedia article in their Business Strategy Review, blissfully unaware that Wikipedia had simply lifted its pithy statement verbatim from Gurusamy (2008) Financial Services and Systems without crediting him. Voceditenore (talk) 17:42, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a valid defence of this so called educational project that delivered a large "lump" of copyvio and other bad content. That is clearly distinct from the constant trickle of copyvio and vandalism that en.WP normally deals with on an ongoing basis. Has this project delivered even one GA, how about even just a B-class? Roger (talk) 18:44, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't using this as a defense of the IEP program, simply making an observation. I've been squawking like mad on the WMF page devoted to the IEP. One of the points I tried to make there was the same point you make. It's the sudden influx of nearly 1000 students in a short period of time, all editing in two basic areas who were ill-prepared and many of them struggling with written English. This was combined with completely non-participatve instructors, Campus Ambassadors who worked their heads off but were given an impossible task and unfairly placed in the firing line, and a complete failure to give any warning to En Wikipedia or engage with the WikiProjects who would have to cope with all. I believe one GA did come from it. Voceditenore (talk) 19:19, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I think I've said this before, but doesn't anyone ever think to let those of us at NPP know about projects that will likely result in a significant number of new articles created? Had I known what was coming on NPP, I'd have 1. suggested this wasn't a good idea for all the reasons that ended up coming true (and gotten the same response as WP:ACTRIAL; pattern here?) and 2. read up a little on the subjects the students were working on so I'd know what I was looking at. As it was, I had to learn on the fly how to check for complex copyright issues, and my level of patience for people who write in near impenetrable English is decidedly thin from my 1 1/2 years of cleaning up after them on NPP (seriously, I defy anyone to find the next Indian village article and tell me how long it takes you to even make it a decent stub; I long ago lost count of the number). For all I've been told that more attention is being paid to NPP, people seem to forget that we're the ones who end up being gatekeepers, and you rely on us to some extent to keep a project of this size under control. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:38, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I I had known this project was coming, I would have offered to go to India (it's not far from here and I have lived and taught there, and I also know a little bit about Wikipedia) and train the CAs properly and throw in some lectures for the students for good measure. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:56, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

IEP student and article lists and how to use them

Usable plaintext lists are now under construction from the tables of IEP users and their articles. These lists can be imported to your raw watchlist, and will show you:

• When a user has been warned.
• When an article is edited.

These lists will be available sometime today - watch this space. To benefit fully from your watchlist, if you are not already using it you should install the popup script. This will provide a rapid view of the contents of the recent revision when moving you mouse over '(diff)'.
I'll just repeat again, that admins are watching this page; if you feel that repeating offenders should be blocked, or pages should be protected, please tag the pages and warn the users as appropriate, and please a message here. Do note however, that blocking and protection will not be taken lightly, and will only be entertained in the most extreme cases - we must encourage new users to abide by the rules, and avoid driving them away with bitey actions and messages.
Please also take into consideration that some IEP users may not have sufficient knowledge of English to fully understand the implications of some of our TL;DR templates. An additional, more simple customised personal message may help. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:51, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Students and articles

I have prepared these lists from the raw data graciously stripped from the tables by User:Manishearth. These lists can be copied and pasted into your raw watchlists exactly as they are. They will only show if they are edited.
Students' talk pages are automatically added. If the talk pages show new edits, check for copyvio warnings or other warning messages. If there are 3 to 4 warnings, leave a message here or alert an admin.
If you want to break the lists down into faculties, please see User:Manishearth/Ambassador/IEPstudents and User:Manishearth/Ambassador/IEParticles. For your watchlist you must prepare the lists in the way they have been prepared below. If you don't know regex to strip the square brackets, ask me or someone else to do it for you.

students and articles

Students User:220.225.67.36 User:49.248.254.43 User:17shash User:110803004_rajesh User:110808020_nilesh User:110808028_amol User:110808049_nisarg User:111003046comp User:111008066it User:a20.nitin User:Aaditiac.mech User:Aamiya cchakraborty User:aanchal09 User:aau_74 User:abhi.nagarnaik User:Abhijeet Tak User:Abhijit User:Abhijit Aghao User:abhijit.digole User:Abhijitrs.mech User:Abhilasha369 User:abhinav_aggarwal09 User:abhinav619 User:abhipsa padhiary User:Abhishek Ajesra User:aditi symbiosis User:Aditi Wadekar User:Adityaarora20 User:Adityamoghe2011 User:adwait187 User:Aishani Sharma User:aishvora User:aishwarya.khosla User:aj45218 User:Ajinkya.domale User:Ajinkyarp.mech User:Ajit.Mali User:Ajitdmote11 User:akanksha.modani User:Akanksha08 User:akashasija User:akashpendkar User:akashprathi User:Akashrodge User:Akhil.kapoor2 User:Akshay Bageshwar User:akshay.ahire User:akshaybade User:akshaychandak78 User:akshayfp.mech User:ALX999 User:Amanchawla User:Amar.m1 User:AmeyaDahale User:Ameynv.mech User:Amit khadse User:Amitmunde User:Amitnakli User:Amol deshbhratar User:Amol.gulhane07 User:amolkchaudhari User:Amolkure.mech User:Amrutdeshpande User:Amtrathod19911 User:anaghajadhav User:anand devnale User:Aniket Bapat User:Aniket khade dabbang User:Aniketam.mech User:aniketcm.mech User:Aniketdp.mech User:Aniketpate User:Anjai Negi User:Anjalirl.mech User:anjana.sreekumar User:Ankit Damodar User:ankit.shende User:ankitajain1411 User:Ankitaks.mech User:Ankitamor User:Ankurjay007 User:annie_maverick User:anoojbhadu34 User:Antariksh.pant User:anu2033 User:Anujasp User:anupa.chakraborty User:Anuradha tupsundare User:Anurag acj User:Anusha96 User:apoorvanayak User:appledoc User:Arhit.SSE User:Ari.MSC User:aries0491 User:Arjunmangol User:Aroy009 User:Arpit_Speedster_CS User:arun.shetty User:arunrulz User:asahay15 User:ashakawale User:AshishDandekar7 User:AshitoshAlwani User:Ashutosh.ukey User:AshviniV User:Asmita yendralwar User:Atharvaborkar User:atul.lanjudkar User:atul903 User:atulnk11 User:Atulsingh05 User:Avinash sonwane User:Avinashdjadhao.coep User:Avinashgadekar User:Avinashsonwane7 User:Aviverma User:Awadhutmore User:ayeshasaifi User:b.suhasini User:BabyPoochies User:bana2231 User:basic.atari User:belapurerv08.it User:berneey User:bhagyashri.kantikar User:Bhaveshpatil04 User:Bhavika chheda User:Bhavikp19 User:Bhavna.jaidwal User:bhim.padalkar User:Bhotmangeth08.it User:bhushanmohite92 User:BhushanPatil.Mech User:Bluejazz6 User:bobadevishal User:borseashwini User:bugboy48 User:Burhanuddin Virpurwala User:bvineet User:chaitanya.gayke User:Chaitanya1.gayke User:chaitrali.joshi User:charanya.vish User:Charukeshi Joglekar User:Chetan Meshram User:chimidoma User:computergeekx User:Computersagar User:cos1432008 User:Cs0909 User:csnarkhede User:curiousitas User:dakshdhankhar User:debastein1 User:Deepa Sai A User:deepakg.elec User:deepika.sirsath User:deshmukhpratik User:deutkar ulhas User:devadyuti_nag User:Devanshi tripathi User:devendra thakur User:Devendrabp.mech User:Devikakannan User:devsoni User:Dhananjaysb.mech User:dhanashreevaidya User:DhirajkumarBJ10.mech User:dimpal User:Dipali Mahajan User:Dipti N User:diptuchaku User:div.tejwani User:Dnyaneshwar444 User:dpacsridharan User:dropnote User:ds731992 User:Durgasj.mech User:dvka005 User:epistemphobic User:examsandacademics User:fadnaviska User:FazilaGirkar User:Gachasupri User:Gaikwadss.mech User:Gajanan2011 User:Gajanandc.mech User:Gajugarve User:gakiwate User:Ganesh A Bhise User:Ganesh Kumbhar User:ganeshbiradar93 User:GARAD.VIJAY User:Gargi Pingale User:gaurabr User:GauravKeskar User:Gauri Vaidya User:Gayathri28 User:Geetanjalikatare User:girishsk.mech User:Goldlionist User:Gopal Sarda CS User:grainbrain User:gunesh10 User:Hahaharsh User:haley.rohl User:Harichandra Darade User:harsha.dabhade User:Harshad Choube User:harshadsamant User:harshadwaghmare User:Harshalb.mech User:Harswiks User:Hemlatak.elec User:hemsvasu User:hilburt User:Hitendrashukla User:hiteshreep.mech User:hpSSE User:Hsben User:hussain a tamboli User:ingaleashwini User:Investorkaytan User:ipsidel User:Irfanhamidk User:ishankute User:IshitaMundada User:Ishq2011 User:Ishwar Gajanan Kurwade User:ittisha User:Jagdishpawar User:Jagruti Khivasara User:jainyz User:Jayantgolhar User:jayantramanand User:Jayeshmore77 User:jha.preeti25 User:jinchurikidan User:jiteshchougule User:jk.90 User:Joannegr.mech User:Jobin RV User:joshianurag21 User:jsubha User:jyothivenugopal User:jyoti bansal User:jyoti.khenat User:jyotilanghi User:jyotsna.maddhukuri User:kajalpkhatri User:Kalyani Kulkarni User:kalyani.chandola27 User:Kalyanidd.mech User:Karan.csn User:karan2211 User:karankokane User:karanlalchandani User:Karishma Patil User:Kartikeyagadakh User:Kaushik Panditrao User:Kaustubh85 User:Keyur2808 User:khandarenb.it User:kharosekarcv.mech User:Kiran Kandekar User:Kiran.mech User:Kishorgadekar User:kittu999 User:kj.arsenalrocks User:Kmsarda User:kore mayank User:Lakshmi.nuthakki 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liberalization Economic liberalization in India Economic survey of India 2010-11 edit Education Economics Education in India Education in testing Effects of Inflation and Interest rates on Financial Markets EFSF Electric steam boiler electrode boiler electronic keyboard Embodied agent Encapsulation (object-oriented programming) Endogenous growth theory Endogenous growth theory Environmental economics Environmental resources management Equity linked saving schemes Equity Trading errno.h Eurosystem Evolution from lathe to CNC Evolution of Corporate Social Responsibility in India Evolution of Corporate Social Responsibility in India Exnora and Pepsico waste management centre Expert System for Biometrics Identification/sandbox Exploded view drawing fabs factor payments Family planning in India Farmer Suicides in India Fei-Ranis Model of Economic Growth Female education Fermi level in Semiconductor Ferrography ferror FET fgetpos fgetwc fgetws Finance in India Financial exclusion Financial 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Insurance intel 80386 Intelligent Control Intelligent Database Intelligent word recognition Interaction between monetary and fiscal policies Interface (computing) Internal Organisation of Processor International finance International finance interrupts Intertemporal choice intrusion detection inttypes.h Investment Management Irregular matrix iswdigit iswdigit iswlower iswupper itc e-choupal Jabbar Patel Jackscrew James Edward Meade James Marcus Bach JNNURM Joan Robinson's growth model Khap Knuckle joint (mechanical) Kunal Kohli Labour Discrimination labs Land acquisition in India Large-scale macroeconometric model Law of Supply Lever life cycle hypothesis Limits, fits and tolerance Limits, fits and tolerances Lindahl tax linked data structure Liquidity adjustment facility List of countries by military expenditures Loan waiver locale.h Localization for robots in dynamic environment Localtime Locking arrangement Log-linear modeling (economics) log(c) Loreto Convent, Delhi Low-level equilibrium trap Low-noise amplifier Lucas-Islands model Machine design in game engines Machine Learning Machine Listening Machine_perception Macroeconomics Mahesh Manjrekar Mahindra Rise Making simple decisions in AI Malnutrition in India Managerial economics Manufacturing process of solar evacuated tube collector Mapping UML design to java marginal propensity to consume marginal propensity to save Marginal_profit Marxian economics matrix representation mbrlen mbrtowc Mechanical amplifier Mechanical joint Mechanical Scissor Lifter memccpy memccpy Memory fragmentation memory safety memory segmentation mempcpy Merchant bank MESFET Micro electronics Microinequity Min-max heap mktime Mobile application development mobile crane Mobile tower design modf Monetary policy of India Monetary policy of India Monetary-disequilibrium theory money market mortality rates mprotect MSO Multiple inheritance Mutual fund NABARD Narasimham Committee-I (1991) report NARROW FRAMING National Housing Bank 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fittings Piston,Crankshaft Design Planning and Acting in the Real World Poisson distribution Population Ageing Population projection Potential Function Based Movement in Games Potential Variation in step graded semiconductor Poverty in India Power Diode Pradeep Sarkar Pramathesh Barua Prefetch input queue Primary education primary market Printer (computing) Private sector banks in India product data management Product design phases production drawing Programmable unijunction transistor psignal Public Debt Management Public Distribution System Public Finance Public float Public Private Partnership in India Public sector banks in India Public–private partnership Pulse Polio Punjab National Bank and Social Corporate Responsibility puts puts putwc pwd.h Quadratic probing Quality control Quality-driven architecture design and quality analysis Raghuram Rajan Ragnar Nurkse's Balanced Growth Theory Rajaram Vankudre Shantaram RAJEEV GANDHI GRAMEEN VIDYUKTI KARAN YOJANA(RGGVKY) RapidMiner Rashtriya Krishi Vikas Yojana Rational Expectations Rational_agent real time testing Real-time Object Oriented Modeling Reciprocating engine Regional integration Regional Rural Bank RELATIVE INCOME HYPOTHESIS revealed preference RF power amplifier Risk management in Indian banks RL circuit Robot Economics Robotic welding Robotics Simulator Rocket stepped nozzle design Rostows stages of growth RSA SAFTA Sai Paranjpe Samhita (organisation) SARFAESI Act Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan scenario testing Scenario testing Schottky transistor screw jack screws security testing Segment descriptor Self-help group (finance) Self-organizing list Set (C++) set (computer science) Sexism In India Shrutika0708 Sigma Convergence and Beta Convergence Silent_speech_interface silicon controlled switch Silicon-controlled rectifier Simulation in AI Sleeve nut Slipper clutch Small Industries Development Bank of India Social change Social dividend Social Dumping Social Exclusion Social finance Social inequality Social preference Social Preferences Social Problems of Women in India Social responsibility social sector Social security Social Security In India Socially responsible investing Socio-economic issues in India Soft computing software inspection Software inspection software maintainability testing Software Maintainability testing Software quality assurance Software quality control Software reliability testing software risk management Software testing life cycle Software testing outsourcing software testing team Solution of transcendental equations Sorted array Space Charge Capacitance Spacecraft design Spark-ignition engine sparse array Special Economic Zone Speech Recognition Splines Spring (device) sqrt(C library function) Squale Squale Stability factor Standard of living Starbucks corporate social responsibility programs State Bank of India Static and dynamic data structures Static random-access memory static_cast Storage classes story-driven modelling strcasecmp strcat_h strcoll strcspn strncasecmp strpbrk strrchr strsignal strtok strtok_r Structural modeling strxfrm Subir Gokarn superscalar architecture Surface roughness Sustainable development Sustainable Development Society SuVikas Suzlon Foundation Swarm Robotics swprintf Symbols and conventions used in welding documentation synchronous active objects tanh(C) Tata Jagriti Yatra Technical lettering Technological dualism TECHNOLOGY ECONOMICS Ternary Search Ternary search tree Terrorism insurance Test case design system Test case design system Test data generation test estimation techniques Test estimation techniques Test script Test strategy Testing and performance of IC engines testing for web applications Testing high-performance computing applications Testing in data mining Testing of hypothesis tgmath.h The Automated SAR image processing system The India Less Known The Walt Disney Company#Corporate Social Responsibility Theory of taxation Theory of value (economics) Thermal diode Threaded binary tree Threads in the Java programming language tilda pvt.ltd.-corporate social responsibility programs Timsort tmpnam TNSF Toggle jack tolerance representation on drawing Treasury Bill Market Tunnel diode Turing test Type conversion in c types of shafts types of valves in boiler types of valves in boiler UML extension mechanisms UML Specification for Relational Database UML-based web engineering ungetc Union (computer science) Unit linked insurance product United Nations Global Compact Unsupervised learning Urban Cooperative banks in India Usance USB 3.0 Vacuum triode valve#design Variator (variable valve timing) Varicap and IR emitter Venture capital Vertical hollowshaft motor Virtual Intelligence Vishnu Purana Vocational studies in India Voice controlled robot voltage multiplier Voltage-controlled oscillator vsprintf vwprintf Wchar.h wcscat wcsncmp wctob Web Intelligence Welding Welfare cost of business cycles Welfare cost of inflation Wikibooks: Data Structures/Stacks and Queues Williamson's Model of Managerial Discretion Wipro wireframe model World military spending wprintf write (system call) wscanf x86 instruction listings Zero interest rate policy

Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:47, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Missing: Expert System for Biometric Identification. --Chire (talk) 11:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Woohoo! Fixed two errors in the users list and partially stripped duplicates (only identical strings, including case, were affected).

By the way, regex is not required to strip the square brackets: just find and replace with the empty string (that is, don't put anything in the "replace" textbox). MER-C 13:33, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Great work Kudpung. This is a huge step. Was this created by hand? OlYeller21^Talktome 14:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Manishearth should get the credit for all the hard work stripping the table mark up. I just merged and cleaned up the lists. MER-C|MER-C is right about search-find-replace, but I always use a heavy text editor with lots of regex presets, so I didn't think about about it., and I didn't check for dups. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:18, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Do it by hand? Good gracious most certainly not! =P I used a bit of JS to make only the page content of this page show on the screen, then removed some extraneous stuff (using contentEditable), copied to Word, removed all columns except the username and article name columns, copy pasted back to Chrome, ran a bit more JS that extracted the article links and username links. Yes, it sounds a bit long, but it's a quite fast process (I did it in chunks to avoid mistakes, though).

For those of you who don't want to clutter your watchlists, here are separate watchlist-like pages for articles and students. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 08:54, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

What would really help is a tool that does "combined contributions" of users just like watchlists do "combined history" of pages. I was going to write such a tool a year ago (for helping OAs to keep track of their students), but I never got the time to do much. If anyone knows of such a tool, please post it here. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 09:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Many of the courses have such a tool linked at the top. Here is the one for my class. (Altered slightly to remove my edits.) Danger ^{High voltage!} 18:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Last night, I added some crosslinks to the master list at Wikipedia:India Education Program/Students to make it easier to switch between the various tables (for comparison purposes / resynchronization). Thereby, I found two courses still missing there: "Development Economics Year 3 Group A" and "Research Methodology Year 3 Group B". I added the chapter headers and links, but haven't imported the data from the course sub-pages into there as I don't know if they are still up-to-date. So, this is just to remind you all, that the tables are still changing and any derivative lists (for watchlist import or tools) may still need to be updated on a regular basis as well. Please keep track of and explicitly document the import and export dates to make it easier to diff over the changes and resync. One more note: I saw that some user account names have been updated. If we find multiple accounts etc. for the same user, we should NOT remove the old accounts from the tables (unless they were clearly just typos), but just add the new ones as well. Otherwise we may miss some accounts in the cleanup work. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 10:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

(Removed remaining duplicates in the student list.) MER-C 10:22, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

This list also has non-existent users such as User:Abhishek Ajesra and User:Aau 74. Will these accounts be created or are they pipe induced errors? MER-C 11:38, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

It also omits the targets of redirect pages, which are the ones actually being edited. I discussed this at User talk:Kudpung and created a list of additional pages, but they have not (yet) been transposed here. RichardOSmith (talk) 12:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

We'll have to investigate both, the redirect page as well as the redirect target page, since sometimes the students have added contents to the redirect pages as well (which remains invisible for as long as the redirect was not removed). In either case, better to tag a page too much than to miss a page, IMHO. Ideally, when we tag articles, we should also add all the template parameters. While the template does not use most of the parameters now (except for display purposes), if the parameters are given, this could be centrally added at a later stage without having to edit all the articles again. I guess, we should do the same with the students template (at least adding a parameter indicating the course, so that we can later automatically group students by courses). Yet another parameter might indicate the cleanup status of the tagged article or user account. I might be able to spent some time improving those two templates tomorrow if noone else takes the task until then, but I'll be busy with other work until then.

The master list at Wikipedia:India Education Program/Students is now fully cross-referenced with the lists on the individual course pages (don't change spelling of section headers, or this cross-linking will break apart). We'd now have to sync each pair of lists and verify that the master list is the most up-to-date version of them, and add to the master list whatever additional info comes up this way (at cursory look sometimes there are quite some differences), so that we can forget about the sub-sequent course lists afterwards (unless there will be occasional updates on them as well). We also should bring the tables on the master list into a uniform table format (it's a total mess right now) so that it becomes easier to script-export the data into whatever other machine-readable list formats we might need for more systematic cleanup work.--Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, a common format is a must.. Once you get there, I'll tinker the script to work with that format and paste it here (With a common format, running the script is a breeze). All I need for the script to work is the usernames, articles, and sandbox links(if you want those separated,too) in a fixed column (as in 1st, 2nd,etc). They can even be in the same column, as long as the column is fixed.

Oh, and whenever you want the lists updated, just let me know exactly what's been added, and I'll have it updated in a jiffy. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 14:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd prefer to see the lists on the course pages simply be transcluded from the master list. That would save time keeping them in sync, however they have already diverged quite far, they need to be merged first. Also there are even more lists on talk pages (e.g. Wikipedia talk:India Education Program/Courses/Fall 2011/Data Structures and Algorithms#List of Prospective Articles). —Ruud 15:15, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Found IP address associated with IEP: 49.248.254.43 (talk · contribs) and added it to the list of currently unassigned accounts / articles at the bottom of the master list at Wikipedia:India Education Program/Students. Added to temporary work list of accounts above: 49.248.254.43 (talk · contribs); Amitmunde (talk · contribs). Added to temporary work list of articles above: Ontology learning; RSA; Audio signal processing; Mechanical joint. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 10:16, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Redirects have been added here. They are on the same line as the original link, separated by a space. Please let me know when you want the list updated with redirects again. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 12:34, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Sock puppets?

Some of the students seem to have opened more than one account. We may need to keep track of this in the process to remove copyvios from articles. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 14:54, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Please list (suspected) multi-accounts / sock puppets here for further investigation:

• name: ???; course: Wikipedia:India Education Program/Courses/Fall 2011/Computer Organization and Advanced Microprocessing; accounts: user:Chaitanya.gayke, user:Chaitanya1.gayke; evidence: ???; status: both accounts blocked
• name: SHAIKH SHADAT; course: Wikipedia:India Education Program/Courses/Fall 2011/Machine Drawing and Computer Graphics; accounts: user:shadatls.mech, user:shadat88.mech; evidence: [1]; status: unknown

Please take user:shadatls.mech / user:shadat88.mech to SPI - certainly passes the Duck test - both working on steam boilers. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:34, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

 Done Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/shadatls.mech ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 09:15, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

More blocks

In spite of being blocked and unblocked, User talk:Sachinsuroshe has now been indefinitely blocked for copyvio. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:12, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we all know that that's going to lead to a sock popping up. These are students, with an assignment to do. If he can't edit under his original username, he's going to create a sock sooner or later. Too bad we can't have a "preemptive" SPI ;-) ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 09:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Ah, they were the student who repasted the copyvio over the warning I gave them! Danger ^{High voltage!} 18:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

User talk:Gunesh10 has been blocked for repeated copyvio. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:30, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll be honest, as a CheckUser this entire concept is extremely frustrating. I'm seeing socks pop up all over the place, but so many of the accounts are on the same IP (I'm talking hundreds on one IP) with all very similar edits (since it is all part of a structured regiment) making it almost impossible to determine much of anything. With the added pressure to finish their assignments on time, we are almost encouraging them to sock if they end up getting blocked, mostly for copyright violations. Tiptoety ^talk 08:19, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Relief

The students of COEP have been given strict orders by their dean that if they put any further copyvios or sock puppetry, they shall be given negative marking. All edits are supposed to be stopped as of now and any further such edits on Wiki main space and/or sandboxes will invite heavy penalties in the form of negative marks. So for the moment, the flood of copyvios should stop and we need only remove what is existing only. Hope this news comes as some relief thanks to Hisham and Nitika who flew down to Pune and had a meeting with the Dean of COEP. Just got this news, hence passing it along. Debastein1 (talk) 11:24, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I have put a detailed note regarding our meeting with the Director at CoEP here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Education_Program#Meeting_with_the_Director_of_College_of_Engineering.2C_Pune. Nitika.t (talk) 05:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the update, Nitika. So, edits from COEP students should stop. But if the dates given on the various course sub-pages are accurate, they should have stopped by now already. The last deadline to work on the articles, as documented on any of the COEP course pages, has been the 2011-10-31. Were these deadlines changed informally without reflecting this on the corresponding course pages? More interesting, what about the other two schools involved, Symbiosis School of Economics and SNDT Womens' University? According to Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Courses/Fall_2011/Macroeconomics at least one of their courses still has a deadline on 2011-11-14. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 09:21, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't exactly know about COEP, I too think the deadline was till 2011-10-31, however, that why you probably had the surge of copyvios as users edited on the last date and subsequently, as per Wikipedia, it only clocks UTC timings, hence, here at India, the students get some time beyond 12 midnight the last date, approximately, 5hrs and 30 mins. I being a CA of SSE can tell you that all of SSE's courses have stopped and have been evaluated with the exception of one, i.e. the Master's Course, Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Courses/Fall_2011/Macroeconomics. So only further editing from COEP has been stopped in an effort to stop the rampant copyvios. The program is still active in other colleges as per schedule. Cheers, --Debastein1 (talk) 11:10, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I guess its time to look through people's contributions.--Guerillero | My Talk 16:51, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Judging by the edits here, some users are still active (Wait for it to load and then scroll down a bit) ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 15:19, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Going it alone

Since it has become readily apparent that the leadership here is unable or unwilling to address the fact that most of the folk assigned to cleanup are (through no fault of their own) are grossly unprepared for finding copyright violations and addressing them, I propose that we divvy up the list ourselves. Perhaps each experienced OA ought pledge to cover an inexperienced OA's cleanup until the list is all covered? Or, I am loathe to suggest, we do this off-wiki so as not to expose those who have been put in such an impossible position to further embarrassment? At any rate, perhaps sign up below and we'll figure out what to do. Danger ^{High voltage!} 17:06, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I was under the impression that Nitika was asking OAs who have finished their section of cleanup to take on additional articles, and continue to distribute the work that way till all articles are accounted for. Isn't that what's happening? I've volunteered for additional articles; I haven't been given any yet but I expect I'll receive them soon. I wouldn't like to see work duplicated so even if we end up organizing the clean up here let's make sure it doesn't duplicate work Nitika is already doing. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:15, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

As of the last communication I received from Nitika (via email, yesterday), I was not under that impression at all. She is encouraging the OAs who have not started (many, I imagine, because they don't know what to do) to do so and also the CAs (who are equally inexperienced) to step in. Perhaps, though, you are receiving different emails than I am. Danger ^{High voltage!} 18:01, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I think all of this should just be done according to a standard WP:CCI, with standard community participation. The way Nikita's set it up makes it impossible to audit particular diffs, and most users aren't timestamping their comments so who knows what offending content has been added by then. Let's just have User:MER-C put together a big CCI report when he has time, and work from there. The OA thing is pretty useless. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Good point. I think you're right. Should the OA bit just stop, since it will all be taken care of through CCI? Danger ^{High voltage!} 19:03, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I would be willing to take on a set of articles if I was given a list to work through. --Guerillero | My Talk 22:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I thought it had been recommended that Nitika and organisers to keep their messages more in the open and use talkpages.. Most of the problems with this programme are due to the organisers' lack of communication and not letti,ng people know who is in charge. In fact it is still totally unknown - except that Frank Shulenberg has overall responsibility for the Global Education Program. The organisers have known about these problems for over 6 weeks and it's only now, when the project is at an end, that they do somethiong about it. Who chose these ambassadors, who trained them, and who trained the trainers? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:10, 4 November 2011 (UTC) Ambassadores?

You can lead a horse to water, etc. Danger ^{High voltage!} 23:45, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Kudpung, you're saying that “Most of the problems with this programme are due to the organisers' lack of communication and not letti,ng people know who is in charge”. Fact is that students at the two colleges in Pune continued to add copyrighted material to Wikipedia even after the 20 in-class sessions about copyright took place. I don't see how “letting people know who is in charge” is an answer to the question why the students behaved that way. And this question is not just a rhetorical question, it is something that I believe is at the core of the problem. Also: “Who chose these ambassadors, who trained them, and who trained the trainers?” doesn't answer the question. In my opinion it is too easy to blame the Ambassadors in Pune for the failure. They went to the classroooms, pulled up students' copyright violations on the screen and showed them why the edits were copyright violations. Campus Ambassadors reached out to students desk-by-desk in class, by email, by text, by Facebook messages, and any other way they could think of to encourage students to stop adding copyrighted materials to Wikipedia. Our Campus Ambassadors begged students to not add copyvios to Wikipedia, but some students simply would not or could not understand. This is what I think should be analysed. Also, I agree with you that our communication with the community was poor. I apologize for that. We tried for too long to fix the problem instead of just admitting that it was better to stop the students from editing. That said, I'm deeply frustrated about the outcome of the pilot. At the same time, I thank every community member who helped us along the way. As a Wikipedian, I know exactly how much we all care about keeping Wikipedia safe and its quality high. I always assume good faith when it comes to interacting with someone else online. I hope this is a mutual principle that guides us today and in the future. --Frank Schulenburg (Wikimedia Foundation) (talk) 22:11, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Frank. I'm not laying the blame at the feet of the ambassadors for one moment, but as my table below clearly demonstrates, there were gross miscalculations in the way they were selected and trained. I am fully aware that they were doing their best within the confines of their preparation for the project and their availablity, and I wrote to each one of them personally when the problems became acute. From the USA end, the huge cultural dichotomy also appears not to have been taken into consideration. The communication issues I mentioned were those between the WMF, and the community who did not really know whom to address, and were, perhaps, understandably unaware of the parallel page at WikiMedia - as a result, for a short while, my own talk page became the node of communication, and this shouldn't happen. The impression that the community has been receiving is that the WMF carries out whatever experiments it likes, and possibly employs inexperienced staff to do some of the organising, in the knowledge that they have thousands of volunteers who will clean up the mess. Plenty of warning signs were made weeks ago but were only taken seriously when I started the ball rolling by blocking the IP of one of the faculties, but only last week just before the project was due to end anyway, was anything of consequence undertaken. I was able to dedicate a lot of my online time to the clean up due my being (almost) in their time zone, and experience drawn from many years of working in education in Asia and India. Most of our volunteer community is asleep when the Indians are working; editing was not confined to students' creations, many other existing articles were edited by them, and there is still no exact way of knowing how many articles, sandboxes created in mainspace, or edited articles that were missed by the patrollers are still lurking unflagged in the NPP backlog. I sincerely hope that the next phase of the IEP will have learned from the mistakes, and I will of course continue to offer as much help as I can in any way possible, and perhaps as a result, we can also step up the development of the Article Creation Flow, and the Zoom that I am working on in close collaboration with the WMF. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:51, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Kudpung,

I highly appreciate the support you've provided thus far and I am more than happy about your offer to help in the future. That said, I feel that statements like “the WMF carries out whatever experiments it likes […] in the knowledge that they have thousands of volunteers who will clean up the mess” are not in line with the principle of “Assume good faith”. I am assuming good faith when it comes to you or anyone else who's involved in this discussion. And I hope that you are assuming good faith as well. If this is not the case, please let me know.

The idea behind the Pune pilot was to increase the overall number of editors and their diversity. This is based on the fact that editors from India are underrepresented on Wikipedia. If our common goal is to make the sum of all knowledge freely available, then nurturing underrepresented groups is the right thing to do. That's why the volunteer community in a collaborative process (http://strategy.wikimedia.org) decided to make India, Brazil, and the Arabic-speaking areas of the Middle East and North Africa high-priority targets.

With that said, I would like to learn more about why you think that your table demonstrates the shortcomings of the selection and training of the Campus Ambassadors in Pune (who's role is to teach the students basics like how to create a useraccount on Wikipedia). I have to admit that we did not get Online Ambassadors (who's role is to provide that crucial on-wiki role of assisting students) in place fast enough. That's among the many lessons that we have learned from this pilot. --Frank Schulenburg (Wikimedia Foundation) (talk) 03:45, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

It is news to me that the CAs were merely to introduce students to the basics. I think the confusion regarding the roles of the various members of this program is understandable, given the information's the information available publicly.

I can speak only for myself, of course, but I think what you are seeing is not a failure to assume good faith, but a failure to assume competence. I don't think that ignoring the resource that is the en.wikipedia community was intentional. I don't think using non-transparent methods of communication was intentional. I don't think that failure to take into account historic pitfalls met even by enthusiastic South Asian editors was intentional. I don't think gross underestimation of what it takes to guide new editors was intentional. I think these are all the result of well-intentioned plans by staff very unfamiliar with Wikipedia that certainly ganged agley. Danger ^{High voltage!} 04:58, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I should clarify that the link I gave above is where I got when I went to the outreach.wikimeda Campus Ambassador page. The caption is "Visit the page on your country's Campus Ambassador program to get more information about the role's responsibility..." Danger ^{High voltage!} 06:26, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Danger, I see where the confusion comes from. Let me try to clarify the roles of the Campus and the Online Ambassadors.

Campus Ambassadors provide face-to-face assistance to the professors (e.g. when it comes to how to implement Wikipedia into the curriculum) and to the students (when it comes to basic Wikipedia skills and rules, e.g. how to create a user account, or what Wikipedia is/is not). Based on what we've learned in the Public Policy Initiative (our pilot in the US), Campus Ambassadors can be trained. You don't have to have 20,000 edits+ to explain to 20 students how to create a user account on Wikipedia. Actually, we've found that the opposite is true: people who've learned a skill like user account creation quite recently, have a better understanding of the pitfalls than someone (like me) who created his user account back in 2005.

Online Ambassadors, on the other hand, are usually well-seasoned Wikipedians. They know all the knitty-gritty details of Wikipedia's rules, policies and guidelines. They guide the students on-wiki.

Here's one challenge that we were facing when we started the Pune pilot: whereas the Campus Ambassador group is open (and I hope everybody here agrees that openness is one of our core values), the Online Ambassador group as we started it in the Public Policy Initiative is somewhat closed. That means, there's only a limited amount of Wikipedians who are interested in serving as Online Ambassadors. And, actually, I can totally understand that – my own main participation on Wikipedia is to write articles. I've been a mentor to new editors for a while and I've enjoyed helping newcomers, but in the end, I enjoy writing articles the best. And I guess, nothing is wrong with that. But on the other hand, we would like to see the program as a whole grow. We had fantastic results in our U.S. pilot. Students improved the article quality significantly and the joint Campus / Online Ambassador system worked really well. Now, what we've done in India, was an attempt to open up the Online Ambassador group as well. We divided the Online Ambassador group up: into a) experienced Wikipedians and b) newly trained Online Ambassadors. The experienced Wikipedians were supposed to function as the online experts (comparable to the U.S. Online Ambassadors) whereas the newly trained Online Ambassadors were supposed to only give basic assistance. Here's three mistakes we made: (1) It took too long to get the Online Ambassadors on board. (2) The exact role of the newly trained Online Ambassadors has not been as clearly defined as needed. (3) We should have thought about a channel to communicate the concept and background information that I'm giving you now.

As I've said earlier, I am deeply frustrated with the outcome of the pilot project in Pune. And again, I apologize for the additional workload that everybody had. At the same time I'm growing weary of simplistic explanations that lay the blame on a specific group (like “the Campus Ambassadors are to blame”, “WMF staff is to blame”). As far as I can see, the situation is far more complex. None of the easy explanation attempts answers the question as to why the students kept adding copyrighted materials after 20 in-classroom sessions had been held, and after the Ambassadors were communicating the fact that adding copyrighted material is not allowed through all channels available to them (in-person, email, Facebook, etc.).

Again, my main interest is to understand the problems we were facing better. I believe we have to go through a thourough analysis of what worked well and what didn't. And I also believe that this is not only a huge challenge, but a huge opportunity to learn and to get better. --Frank Schulenburg (Wikimedia Foundation) (talk) 15:08, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Frank, I understand how deeply frustrated you must be by all of this. But no one here has been giving "simplistic explanations that lay the blame on a specific group"—least of all ones that lay blame on the Campus Ambassadors. Criticising the training they had, the impossible workload they were given, and the fact that they were left in the firing line because for weeks no one else involved in the IEP would communicate here is not the same as laying the blame on them. And for the most part, the discourse here (and even more so at the WMF talk page) has been far from "simplistic". It has been quite nuanced and has pointed out ways that will help you to understand what went wrong and why. Voceditenore (talk) 19:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Frank: I don't think it's much of a mystery why there was so much copyright violation. It's clear to most of us that the Pune students don't have the language skills or training in original expression that editing in this project requires. This could have been determined by a small pilot with a few students in one class or even by a review of edits by Indian editors over the last few years. The questions I'd suggest looking into are what assumptions were made that led us to loose thousands of unprepared students into the project and why we so greatly underestimated the level of support it would require. Jojalozzo 20:37, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I fully understand the principles of expanding global knowledge - that's why I have been living here in Asia these past 13 years, and although I am now sem-retired, I still speak at colleges and conferences around the region, and massively plug Wikipedia too. I think if there were a lack of good faith I would have abandoned my collaboration on Wikipedia a long time ago instead of investing 100s of hours on this IEP programme, and dozens of others working in close collaboration with some of your senior executives on the development of other urgently needed solutions. I was merely summarising the sentiments that are echoing along the virtual corridors of the community.

We do not have the luxury of immediate communication and knowing who is in charge by sharing the same real life office space. I am sure that if there was community approval for a Global Education Programme, it was not tendered in the anticipation of the enormous workload it would present to an unprepared a group of people on the factory floor who can barely keep up with the normal day-to-day management of new pages, of which already nearly 80% of the daily intake are destined for the bin. This, and the cultural dichotomy appear to have been completely overlooked during the initial panning stage, as well as bringing some instructors onto the scene who have notion of teaching methodology. I questioned the training that was given to the CAs, who trained the trainers, and under whose authority: who's role is/was it to teach the ambassadors basics like how to create a useraccount on Wikipedia? The table below clearly demonstrates that something was very wrong - the only way to learn how to be part of the editing community of Wikipedia and adopt some responsibility for it is through hands-on experience - and that is not gained in a day and 5 edits, we expect more, much more, from our autoconfirmed users and rollbackers. Not only have the CAs made copyvios themselves, but apparently some of them with slightly more knowledge have explained to the students how to evade their blocks by socking and the use proxy servers. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:02, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Let me jump in here, as well. Kudpung, you're absolutely right that the Pune pilot this past semester has put enormous workload on the community - I completely acknowledge that, and want to echo Frank's sentiment that we are very grateful for the work that community members (like yourself) have had to shoulder. It was not our intention by any means to put such a workload on the community. I believe this outcome was the result of two big mistakes that we made. One, we should have run a much smaller pilot - our original plan, actually, was to have only a few hundred students maximum in the Pune pilot (since it is a pilot), and the number of students increased significantly beyond our original intention when more Pune professors than expected signed on board the program because they were really excited by the value of Wikipedia-editing assignments (this level of interest and excitement is very nice by itself); in retrospect - and as one of our main learning points from this past semester - we should have put a stricter and smaller cap on the number of students involved in the program, especially since it is still in the pilot phase.

The second mistake we made was that we brought the Online Ambassadors on board too late. As Frank mentioned above, the role of Campus Ambassadors and the role of Online Ambassadors are very different, and entail different requirements and expectations. In the highly successful U.S. pilot last year ("Public Policy Initiative"), Campus Ambassadors introduced students to the basics of Wikipedia on a face-to-face level. Their role is not so much guiding students through detailed intricacies of Wikipedia-editing (like the more specific Wikipedia policies around blocks), but teaching students about the very basics, like how to create a user account, how to bold/italicize text, how to create a sandbox, etc. It is the role of the Online Ambassadors - who tend to be more experienced Wikipedians - to mentor students on more detailed Wikipedia-editing skills, including flagging policy violations and teaching students what exactly the policies are. I think you'll agree with me that there are a lot of policies and guidelines on Wikipedia - we expect the Campus Ambassadors to know the core, basic ones (like the Five Pillars) and to be able to explain these in beginner-friendly terms to students when they do in-class presentations, but it is the Online Ambassadors whom we expect to mentor students about any of the more advanced policies and also to do closer monitoring and hand-holding to ensure that students are in fact not violating any policies. We believe that this Campus Ambassador-Online Ambassador balance - with their distinct roles and expectations - is one of the main success factors behind the U.S. pilot last year. And in the Pune pilot this semester, we made the mistake of bringing Online Ambassadors on board too late (they weren't really on board until halfway through the semester). The result of this was that the Campus Ambassadors ended up having to do a lot of the things that we traditionally expect Online Ambassadors to do, including mentoring students on-wiki about more intricate Wikipedia-editing skills and policies, but the Campus Ambassadors' role should not have also included these things and the training they received in the summer did not adequately cover these skills because their role doesn't usually require them. In other words, the Campus Ambassadors were put in a situation where they had to help students in ways that Online Ambassadors are usually expected to help students. This was a big mistake on our part. To be honest, given this, I've been really amazed and impressed by what our Campus Ambassadors have accomplished in the Pune pilot this semester - despite being asked to do a lot more than originally intended, they still managed to run so many in-class presentations (which is part of the usual Campus Ambassador role), remain in constant communication with students and professors, stay united as a community, and maintain a cheerful, friendly, and hopeful spirit throughout the entire semester (including now!). I think that if I have to name "heroes" from the Pune pilot this semester, I would say that these very first India-based Campus Ambassadors are heroes.

These two mistakes I just described are serious ones, and are some of our biggest learning points from the Pune pilot. Please keep in mind that this semester in Pune was in fact a pilot, and that means that we went in expecting some things to go well and some things to not go well. Our top priority now is to thoroughly analyze what exactly tok place this past semester, and to strategize plans going forward based on these carefully-analyzed learnings. And we want the community's involvement in this analysis and planning. We'll make better plans with the community's involvement - I am sure of that. I apologize that much of the workload this semester has fallen on the shoulders of the community, and I really appreciate the work you and other community members have already done - I am confident that we can avoid a similar situation in the future, by correcting mistakes like the ones mentioned above and by doing comprehensive, community-backed analysis of the pilot. Annie Lin (Wikimedia Foundation) (talk) 02:06, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Extended content

From the list at w:en:Wikipedia:India Education Program/Campus Ambassadors Source: X!Tools 4 November 2011 Note: In all cases, the vast majority of non-mainspace edits was to the user's user page. User 1st edit Total edits Mainspace en:User:Gsinghglakes 18 September 323 21 en:User:Ramshankaryadav May 696 41 w:en:User:Seva.panda 3 June 14 1 w:en:User:Arnavchaudhary June 117 23 en:User:Wasimmogal2007 12 Sept 2010 316 6 w:en:User:Pallaviagarwal90 28 August 109 10 w:en:User:Mihir.khatwani June 240 20 w:en:User:Tambeparag July 171 86 w:en:User:U.raghavendra June 39 6 w:en:User:AbhiSuryawanshi May 343 59 w:en:User:Rangilo_Gujarati February 1,210 206 w:en:User:ALX999 May 79 8 w:en:User:Mihir_Kelkar 31 August 9 3 w:en:User:Pratiklahoti8004 July 532 51 w:en:User:Gunit31 August 137 28 w:en:User:Devanshi_tripathi August 571 278 w:en:User:Anurag_acj 25 July 128 22 w:en:User:Vaibhavchandak 28 July 172 43 w:en:User:User:Debastein1 24 July 838 133 (user 244) w:en:User:Vedantgupta7890 29 July 117 62 w:en:User:Minakshinajardhane 27 July 128 28 w:en:User:Nikita.agarwal 21 August 137 51 w:en:User:Shefalinaik 28 July 73 19 w:en:User:Roshnisaigal 30 July 188 96 w:en:User:Ishu.aghav 3 September 28 6 w:en:User:Arjunmangol 30 July 302 45 w:en:User:Tb0412 8 July 93 39 w:en:User:Kumarvikramsingh 6 September 29 3 w:en:User:RDebashruti 21 August 29 2

• At this point, I think we should just wait until the CCI and do the clean-up via that. The CCI can't really start until we finally get a complete master list of all the students, and from Matthiaspaul's comments below, that may take some time. But if we try to do it piecemeal from the current Wikipedia:India Education Program/Students, we're just going to end up duplicating work, missing articles and students, etc. Some people will see a comment box already filled in and assume that was an up-to-date check, when in many cases it isn't at all. But that's not the worst of it. I honestly cannot understand what the IEP is doing here. They've apparently lined up some extra "Online Ambassadors" to help with the clean up, but some of them are wildly inappropriate. Even if they do start helping out, none of their work can be trusted—not because they are dishonest, but because they have no experience at all. Everything they do will have to be re-checked by someone else. Observe the following 6 OAs who between them have been assigned nearly 100 students to check:

1. Total edits: 1 (to their user page)
2. Total edits: 3 (all to their user page)
3. Total edits: 23 (only 4 to article space)
4. Total edits: 39 (all to article space, introduced blatant copyvio in 3 articles)
5. Total edits: 75 (47 to article space)
6. Total edits: 125 (29 to article space)

Voceditenore (talk) 15:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I told Annie Lin (WMF person who I got an email from first about this copyright cleanup, before I was emailed by Nikita) in the beginning that we just needed to do a CCI, but she didn't listen to me... (I'm an OA/CA so I'm on the email lists.) I'm not sure what Annie Lin's role is in all this BTW. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Who's Who

This is what I've managed to find. I had to click all over the place (user profiles, "What links here", page histories, and multiple notice boards on English Wikipedia, WMF's Meta-Wiki, and WMF's Outreach wiki) to find out even these basics.

• Barry Newstead is Chief Global Development Officer of the Wikimedia Foundation and "oversees WMF’s work in India"

• Frank Schulenburg is WMF's Global Education Program Director of which IEP is a part

• Annie Lin is WMF's Global Education Program Manager

• LiAnna Davis is Global Education Program Communications Manager

• Hisham Mundol is a WMF consultant and is running the India Programs

• Nitika Tandon is a WMF consultant and is "operationally in charge of IEP"

Two weeks ago I said at the WMF talk page for the IEP that for the sake of transparency and improved communication, this information should be put in one accessible place here on Wikipedia. No one took a blind bit of notice. So here 'tis. Voceditenore (talk) 18:18, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I thought I'd jump in here to comment on this -- although this is a WMF project, we are doing our best to make this a volunteer-run initiative. That means that the face of our project should be the volunteer Ambassadors, students, and professors, not WMF staff. The successes of the U.S. project are the successes of our volunteers, not the successes of WMF staff. In this case, however, the problems with the India program are not the fault of the India Ambassadors, but some design flaws in our pilot -- and that's what pilot projects are: chances to learn what works and what doesn't. Obviously, a lot *didn't* work with the India Education Program, and we have certainly been reading every word (yes, Kudpung, even if we just post at the end of the page, we have read every word above it!). Our names aren't on these pages because we don't want to take credit for success that isn't ours, that is instead the community's. But we certainly deserve the blame for flaws in the program design that have been illuminated here in the last few months. So I'm genuinely curious... where would you suggest adding our names to the pages so as not to overshadow volunteers when things are going well? -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 20:45, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

First, this was obviously not a volunteer run initiative, considering the failure of the drivers of the program to engage, consult with, or even inform the volunteer community, and the fact that the only volunteers (the Ambassadors) in the program were chosen by WMF staff in a sort of off-wiki job application process. (I should have known that that didn't pass the sniff test; the trouble with idealism.) So, I am unimpressed by your claims. Anyhow, in the event, heaven forbid, that a similarly Foundation driven program occurs in the future, creation of a "leadership" tab in the main page detailing the above information would be very helpful so that we could communicate regarding an en.wikipedia program on wiki with the people running it. Danger ^{High voltage!} 00:13, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Danger,

The fact that the first generation of Ambassadors was chosen by WMF staff does not mean that the Pune Ambassadors were not running this program as volunteers. And you are right – they've all gone through a very selective and rigorous application process and here is why: if you're a teacher and you are letting someone that you don't know very well come to your classroom and talk in front of your students, you have to have confidence that this person is going to do a good job. There's a lot of trust involved and we wanted to make sure that we only let people interact face-to-face with the students who deserve that trust.

Now, when it comes to leadership, the Pune Ambassadors selected someone amongst them to take on that role. In a collaborative effort, they agreed that Ram Shankar Yadav should serve as a key on-the-ground organizer in Pune.

Finally, I'm not convinced that the above list of names answers the question of why the students at the two colleges in Pune did not respond to the various efforts being undertaken to stop them from adding copyrighted materials to Wikipedia. That's why I suggest making a thourough analysis of the pilot our first priority.

However, I think your idea of creating a tab on the main project page could help. I would suggest to call this tab “contact” instead of “leadership”, but I feel that's a minor point. The tab could list both a representative from the volunteers/Ambassadors and a WMF staff representative as first points of contact if some issue comes up. --Frank Schulenburg (Wikimedia Foundation) (talk) 02:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Contributor surveyor finished

I finished the contribution surveyor yesterday, test output is here. Is the list of students final, all inclusive and error free? MER-C 02:57, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately not, for several reasons:

The "work lists" above are a very good starting point for watchlist import etc., but they can hardly be used for systematic work or even a formal copyvio investigation, as they are outdated and incomplete. The master list at Wikipedia:India Education Program/Students continues to see updates on a frequent basis. Further, there are still changes added into the individual course lists (f.e. Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Courses/Fall_2011/Machine_Drawing_and_Computer_Graphics#List_of_students), which don't get reflected in the master list (in some cases the lists have been sync'ed some days ago, but are already out of sync again). Finally, there are still students adding new contents to articles (such as, for example, here: [2] in the High-mast lighting article). They no longer edit under their WP user accounts, but work "under cover" as mere IPs now.

Any IP found to be associated with the IEP should be added to the section Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Students#Other engineering students / articles) in the master list. Some of these IPs are not static and have been used for edits unrelated to IEP as well, complicating matters...

All in all, the whole thing is still in flux, it seems.

The only way to get out of the dilemma, as I see it, is to sync the various lists and combine all the data into the master list and comment out (or otherwise "invalidate" or set to "read-only") the various then-no-longer-needed distributed lists on the course sub-pages immediately afterwards. But for this to work, the table format must be expanded and unified, so that no information gets lost and new info can be added. After all, we cannot simply delete the distributed course lists if they contain any information not found in the master table.

Realistically, I think, it is still days before we'll have anything near a complete and accurate master list.

One would think, that at least the local IEP instructors/ambassadors must have complete user info, as they know the students personally and can ask them questions, and because they'll need the info anyway in order to evaluate the students' work. I wonder, if they still work paper-based instead of using WP as their reference - if so, it might be possible for students to bypass the system and get their work evaluated without ever showing up on the course lists or in the master list, and we might stumble upon them only "by accident". --Matthiaspaul (talk) 14:35, 5 November 2011 (UTC)