Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons

Celebrity charged but not (as of now) sentenced

As I guess many will have seen, one of the world's best known celebrities has today been charged by the police in Sweden for rape. Several respectable media considered RS from all around the world has already reported on it and named the celebrity. Given that the celebrity has been charged, and the charges are all over media, do we mention it at all in the celebrity's article? Jeppiz (talk) 18:29, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a news service. That said, if several RSes are reporting on this, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be appropriate to mention it, as long as we're careful to only say what the news services have said and not add our own insinuations. DonIago (talk) 17:42, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Explanatory supplement to WP:DOB needs discussion

Following a discussion at user talk:WhatamIdoing (permalink), I've written user:Thryduulf/DOB supplement with the intention that it be discussed and then moved to Wikipedia space as an explanatory supplement to WP:DOB when there is consensus to do so. Please keep the discussion to User talk:Thryduulf/DOB supplement so it's all in one place. Thryduulf (talk) 14:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

What's the guideline on editing articles about yourself

Since 2007 at least, it has been against guidelines to edit articles about yourself. What's the name and link for this guideline? Thanks. 2601:246:5B82:1660:E18F:4932:CC7B:E9FC (talk) 00:15, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a bit nuanced. You're probably looking for Wikipedia:Autobiography ... and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest is also highly relevant. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 00:45, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear: stating that this is "against guidelines" is a bit too strong. There are some very restrictive circumstances when it is ok: "if you are removing unambiguous vandalism or clear-cut and serious violations of our biography of living persons policy". Anything else is "strongly discouraged" but not actually forbidden. And of course you must declare the COI. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:53, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, the subject of an article can certainly contribute on the article talk page, noting errors and making requests for changes. Blueboar (talk) 01:09, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Please see

Please see:

• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#GLAAD & anti-LGBT groups – a discussion about whether we can use certain material about public figures/third-parties, or if the organization's website falls under WP:BLPSPS.
• Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#SPS definition – a discussion about whether an organization's website is really self-published (i.e., written by 'the org' and posted online by 'the org') or if it might be traditionally published (e.g., if it is written by one staff member and posted online by a different staff member, similar(ish) to a journalist and a newspaper editor).

The practical difference in the definition is all about BLPSPS: If coca-cola.com is "written by one employee and published by another", and that's all it takes to get out of BLPSPS rules, then we can use the website for The Coca-Cola Company to add information on employees of PepsiCo, and vice versa. But if we say that a corporate website is written by the company and published by the company, then the only BLP uses for that Coca-Cola's website are ABOUTSELF (e.g., what it says about its own employees).

BTW, I suggested a few hours ago, in the second one, that we consider changes to WP:BLPSPS, as it appears that editors really want to use certain, carefully selected, reputable advocacy websites in articles about BLPs (mostly politicians). I don't know if anyone's paying attention to that idea, but if you see such a proposal here in the future, that's where it came from. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

RFC at WP:RSN#RFC: Should grey literature from advocacy groups and other similar orgs always be considered WP:SPS and therefore subject to WP:BLPSPS?

There is a RFC discussion on the consideration of grey literature relating to BLP coverage at the Reliability Noticeboard that watchers of this page may be interested in. Raladic (talk) 03:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Notice: the discussion has moved to a new centralized subpage at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Grey Literature as it was gaining in size. Raladic (talk) 16:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposed addition to WP:SUSPECT

I propose the following text be added to WP:SUSPECT:

Given the legal presumption of innocence, criminal proceedings including those against prominent public persons, should not be mentioned on the main page of the encyclopdia until the cases are resolved either by conviction or acquittal. Any appellate proceedings shall have no bearing on whether or not to post the initial findings of a duly constituted court of law."

I have decided to post this as an RfC as this would involve a non-trivial amendment to WP:POLICY and the issue has become a contentious point of debate involving several nominations at WP:ITNC. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Clarification: This proposal only applies to the main page of the encyclopedia, not to any specific articles. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:28, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support Wikipedia is not a news blotter and we have no need to be first to cover a story. Anything we can do to protect the presumption of innocence for BLPs is a good thing. Furthermore a clear and unambiguous policy regarding how to handle suspects of crime would avoid tedious debates about who constitutes a public person. Simonm223 (talk) 17:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  One small question though: by the main page do you mean a BLP's article-space or do you mean the en dot wikipedia dot com landing page? Simonm223 (talk) 18:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I am referring to the front page of the English Wikipedia. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I see. I'd still support it but somewhat less enthusiastically. I would like us to stop reporting on in-process criminal proceedings altogether as inappropriate to the scope of an encyclopedia. Don't suppose you'd be willing to expand the proposed policy revision accordingly? Simonm223 (talk) 18:14, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think that if somebody is actually convicted and it's major news, posting it at ITN is fine. I supported posting Donald Trump's conviction in the New York case. My objection is to putting unresolved allegations on the main page. There is a huge difference between mentioning widely reported criminal charges in somebody's BLP article and putting them on the front page of one of the world's most heavily trafficked websites. But if you have a specific change in mind feel free to suggest it. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:23, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  Here's my pitch: replace the current text of WP:SUSPECT with, A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations, arrests and charges do not amount to a conviction. Given the legal presumption of innocence, criminal proceedings including those against prominent public persons, should not be mentioned until the cases are resolved either by conviction or acquittal.

  Any appellate proceedings shall have no bearing on whether or not to post the initial findings of a duly constituted court of law. If different judicial proceedings result in seemingly contradictory outcomes that do not overrule each other, include sufficient explanatory information. Simonm223 (talk) 18:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. But you can always add it as separate proposal for discussion underneath this one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  Rather than having dueling RFCs could we suggest your text as an option 1 and mine as an option 2? That way, in cases like mine where I would support either but have a preference it's all in one place. Simonm223 (talk) Simonm223 (talk) 18:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  We already have several comments so I would be reluctant to materially alter the RfC. But I will add your suggestion below this. for discussion in its own right. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Such allegations are going to be included in the BLP article in any such case where the conditions are in line with BLPCRIME. It makes no sense to then say that we should hide that from the main page if they are in the news, as long as the blurb is clear that they are only allegations or charges and not convictions. It does make sense to avoid including news items around such allegations when they are less news and more a due to the spectical around it (eg some of the jadedness editors have around Trump rings true here), but that's something that current ITN guidelines should handle, not a special exemption on BLP. — Masem (t) 18:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - we can presume innocence while mirroring the reliable sources that choose to cover a story (or do not choose). Editors of main page processes currently have appropriate leeway to decide whether a legal case is prominent enough to be mentioned. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 18:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. The ongoing legal proceedings against Trump make clear that there are circumstances in which unresolved legal allegations are clearly WP:DUE. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Criminal allegations and proceedings are normally major points in an individual's life and they should be covered, whether on the MP or not. As long as the wording is appropriate (ie provides context and makes clear it's an allegation or part of a proceeding), and not giving any indication of guilt or innocence, there is no reason not to have information on the MP. - SchroCat (talk) 18:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, though this is without prejudice to the policy in WP:NPF that we should tread very carefully when publishing negative information about non-public figures. Major public figures, however, should not have that protection: where newsworthy allegations have been made against them, they should be reported objectively and as accusations, following WP:V. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support (invited by the bot) Since everything "in the news" violates wp:not news, there's no strong argument for inclusion of anything and IMO so no argument agains setting a bit higher bar. Criminal charges vary from meaningless to meaningful depending on the particulars (such as who is making the charge, the nature of the charge) and there's nothing wrong with setting a bit higher bar for the front page of Wikipedia. North8000 (talk) 19:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Very, very weak oppose, though I support the spirit of this proposal. There are absolutely circumstances in which unresolved proceedings are quite notable, though. @Ad Orientem, I don't too much follow ITNC, might I ask which specific instances of BPPCRIME on the main page have conflagrated? Changed to support, and thanks to whomever signed my post (the reply tool has spoiled me). — Preceding unsigned comment added by JayCubby (talk • contribs) 19:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  There have been a number over the years. The most recent would be Jair Bolsonaro's indictment in Brazil. That discussion is still open and currently looks pretty deadlocked. In the past each of Donald Trump's indictments were nominated. At least two and possibly three of them were separately posted. I am pretty sure the last one was turned down. We posted his actual conviction in New York, which I supported. It's also worth noting that all of the Federal charges have since been withdrawn, albeit for purely legal reasons. In theory he could be reindicted when he leaves office. A proposal to post the withdrawal of those charges was going nowhere the last I looked. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  As for those, I'd argue they have little impact on the world stage. A conviction might be. Changing my vote to support JayCubby Talk 21:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  @JayCubby You should strike your oppose comment to avoid confusion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support Political trials, show trials and lawfare are common in many jurisdictions and often used against opposition politicians. We should therefore have a high bar for promotion of such, per WP:NOTADVOCACY and WP:NOTSCANDAL. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose the blanket prohibition, as there still may be limited circumstances where an arrest made or formal charges against a very prominent person cannot be ignored (I am thinking OJ-level celebrities, or current or former heads of state), that grab the international consciousness that ITN is designed to capture. --Enos733 (talk) 01:51, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

From Simonm223. See discussion above.

A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations, arrests and charges do not amount to a conviction. Given the legal presumption of innocence, criminal proceedings including those against prominent public persons, should not be mentioned until the cases are resolved either by conviction or acquittal.

Any appellate proceedings shall have no bearing on whether or not to post the initial findings of a duly constituted court of law. If different judicial proceedings result in seemingly contradictory outcomes that do not overrule each other, include sufficient explanatory information.

• Support as proposer. I think this would not only eliminate the question of crime reporting on marginally public people but would also, generally, be a great service toward supporting WP:NOTNEWS. Our website isn't for breaking news and we should consider the balance of public good between extreme inclusionism and respect for presumption of innocence. Yes, that should be applied by Wikipedia even for distasteful politicians. Simonm223 (talk) 18:46, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as long as the person is a public figure and the documentation of any allegations are from reputable reliable sources, there is zero reason to not include them. For example, taking this to heart, it would mean that we'd have to scrub out all of the convictions Trump faced for J6, which is in a lot of articles, including the SCOTUS case (he wasn't convicted or acquitted). We just need editors to keep their writing impartial and neutral, and work in writing summaries of legal proceedings rather than write to the level of detail the news gives (Wikinews can be used for that) — Masem (t) 18:51, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  A key part of my contention here is that Wikipedia has really strayed from the spirit of WP:NOTNEWS in that a vast array of the articles on the website are just news aggregation. I'm honestly not of the opinion that we need to be talking about the indiscretions of contemporary American politicians unless they turn out to be historically significant. Simonm223 (talk) 18:56, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I am 110% behind you on the NOTNEWS issue, but it affects more than just accusations and trials of BLP. It is a far larger problem that needs to be addressed at a much large venue, one that I have been brewing how to start in the back of my mind. The over details coverage of news absolutely impacts BLP negatively, but changing just BLP isn't the way to resolve it. — Masem (t) 18:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  This is touched upon at the guideline WP:LASTING: It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable. —Bagumba (talk) 02:31, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Support in spirit but this is too complicated and US-centric on the details. North8000 (talk) 19:16, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - absolutely not. As I said for the other proposal above, we can presume innocence while mirroring the reliable sources that choose to cover a story (or do not choose). This is not a solution to the larger problem alleged by the proposed. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 19:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose for the same reasons as above. Criminal proceedings against public figures are often WP:DUE and should be covered. Additionally, the presumption that all proceedings end in conviction or acquittal seems misguided; cases are often settled without advancing to those stages but may nevertheless be DUE. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:07, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as explained by David Eppstein. If there are problems with "In the News" blurbs, perhaps this issue should be discussed there (perhaps with a discouragement to accept blurbs that are about an early part of a criminal proceeding, recognizing that this could not be a hard and fast rule). --Enos733 (talk) 21:17, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Comment If the subject of a bio was removed from a public role over an allegation before criminal proceedings completed, or perhaps even started, the proposed change would prohibit any substantive NPOV explanation from being given in the bio.—Bagumba (talk) 02:11, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
• Lawsuits What about a (civil) lawsuit (e.g. sexual assault), which has a lower burden of proof than a criminal case?—Bagumba (talk) 02:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)