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August 23

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: The result was keep JoshuaZ 20:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Ducati mach1 800.jpg

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Image:Ducati mach1 800.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Izaakb (notify | contribs).
  • I had originally tagged this image with {{rfu}}, but Izaakb's comments indicate that this is a more complicated case than a normal replaceability decision, so I'm listing it here instead. The image is a drawing of a motorcycle, used in an article about the company that made it. The uploader maintains that no mint-condition cycles of this model exist anymore. (I'm copying his comments to me as a comment below.) I still thing the photo is replaceable, for the following reasons: (1) It's a drawing, so someone could redraw it (2), I don't know of any good evidence that no unmodified bikes of this type exist, (3) I don't see a reason why a new photo of a minorly-modified bike wouldn't work just as well in the article it's in. But I'd welcome other opinions from other folks.- – Quadell (talk) (random) 00:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This image is not replaceable. There are no more factory-condition original Ducati Mach 1 bikes in existence, anywhere. Google the image and see for yourself, the only ones that exist are modified. The image is used within the context of the Ducati article to describe one of Ducati's major milestones in motorcycle design and it is relevant whether or not an original bike is shown. izaakb ~talk ~contribs 22:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC) Note: this comment was copied from the image talk page by Quadell[reply]
Also, this is NOT a drawing. It is a colorized photograph of the motorcycle. izaakb ~talk ~contribs 01:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, no. . . no, that there's a drawing. – Quadell (talk) (random) 01:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have an original print of the image, the backside says Colourized Photograph of 1965 Ducati Mach 1 (Concept). Copyright is held by Ducati Meccanica, now called Ducati Motor Holdings.izaakb ~talk ~contribs 02:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It may say that, but if so, it's a photo of a drawing. You can see the ink and other really obvious artifacts. If that's a photo of a bike, I'll eat my hat. – Quadell (talk) (random) 20:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Relevance? Let's just pretend I'm ignorant of copyright law: now's your chance to shine. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If it's a drawing, then anyone could replace it with a new drawing. – Quadell (talk) (random) 13:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it looks like a drawing, but the claim is that it is a colourized photograph. That is where a black-and-white photograph is printed onto paper and then someone adds colour to the print. Today, you'd do that in Photoshop. Carcharoth 15:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
just curious what proof is possible to show that something does not exist? izaakb ~talk ~contribs 02:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Some kind of source. Videmus Omnia Talk 02:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot prove that something does not exist. If you believe a free version can be found, then find one. I am telling you that only 10 Concept Mach 1 motorcycles were made and none exist now --period. See: Negative_proof izaakb ~talk ~contribs 02:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but your statement that the object doesn't exist is original research. All I'm asking for is some kind of source that states this. How do you know the object does not exist to be photographed (or that no free photographs can be made available)? Videmus Omnia Talk 20:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your statement that it does exist isn't original research?SuperElephant 00:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but the burden for showing that a copyrighted image is necessary is on the uploader. Videmus Omnia Talk 01:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Problem is that in this case it's unprovable, so you have to falsify it.SuperElephant 01:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's not unprovable, all you have to do is cite a published source that says "instances of this product no longer exist". Videmus Omnia Talk 16:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I believe that the uploading editor is correct. This is not the right forum to question his judgement whether it is or not anyway. Some objects are that rare that they no longer exist. Until proven otherwise, this is an obvious keep. -Nodekeeper 08:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete if it can't be proved that there object no longer exists. --Abu badali (talk) 16:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep unless you can prove that brain-eating mice don't exist.SuperElephant 19:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This image also has a problem with WP:NFCC#4 - there's no evidence it's been published outside of Wikipedia. Videmus Omnia Talk 03:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC) The source link wasn't working for me last night, but now I can see that it was published on the Ducati website. Videmus Omnia Talk 16:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep given that the delete votes have already proven that brain-eating mice exist. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This Dukati illustration is a classic example of fair use where even the manufacturer/publisher/author is delighted to see as many reproductions as possible spread as far and wide as possible. In my opinion, it meets all 10 NFCC except perhaps for a bit of missing boilerplate such as WP:NFCC#10(c), for which the editors should, IMO, reasonably be given, no, not a week with a notice on the image page, but, say 30-60days with a notice on any applicable article talk pages. Presently there are no free-licensed equivalents that I could find, even though we could reasonably expect the possibility for someone in the future to upload any or all of the other images and maybe clog WP with free-licensed images of their pet restoration projects.
    ........ The assertion(s) above in this discussion that the image must be necessary, IMO, erroneously takes the use of the word "necessary" out of the context of NFCC3(a) and applies it to either NFCC#8 or to a notion that the burden of proof is for the uploader and/or article editors to prove that the image is necessary rather than that it "significantly enhances reader's understanding, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." I believe this is a misguided application of the intentions of the Wikimedia Board. But irrespective of my belief, kindly allow me to present a reasonably forseeable future scenario, with a bit of freindly hyperbole included.
    ........ Look at the variety of alternatives in people's backyards, driveways, etc., and compare them to the perfectly clean, articulate brochure image. here, here, here and here.
    ........ Now, let's say the creators of all these images would be willing to grant free-licenses for them and upload them into WP. The first problem is that they're simply not anywhere near as useful as the stock photo, and the second is that there's a potential for proliferation of persons vying to put their own projects into the article namespace, hardly a sensible approach in my view. I just linked to something of a proliferation of inferior images on the web at present, and that's just for the obscure Dukati Mark 1 alone. to which we can add everybody's foreseeable future pet-restoration project free-license submissions, fully defensible to keep in WP because they'll be "free" for all motorcycles, cars, trucks, RVs, you name it. Heck, the WP image database could end up looking like the sum total of the countless hobbyist and motor-vehicle restoration sites in the future, something like an enlarged category similar to like these at Hubcap Cafe, but with immeasurably more photos to choose from, because everybody will know that all they have to do is put all their images up with one of them'there free license templates and they're in like Flynn. ("Hey, Clem, I'm agonna take som pictures of our restoration project and put 'em on WIKIPEDIA!! under a FREE_LICENSE!!"). So, while I'm at it, a recommendation for WP:NOT, specifically a proposal for a clause that WP:Wikipedia is not a repository for photos of people's motor vehicle restoration projects. Sheese! ... Kenosis 21:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The reason for nomination is a suspicion that it fails NFCC #1. (It passes #8, in my opinion.) It's a drawing of a motorcycle. Does anyone believe that a competent artist couldn't produce an adequate replacement? – Quadell (talk) (random) 14:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So far, I hear NFCC#1, #3, and #10 on this one, so maybe I should take #8. This "shotgun pattern" is becoming increasingly predictable in these IfDs; if it ain't one thing, it's another, and if it ain't that, it's something else. Since, theoretically, all non-free-licensed images in Wikipedia could be replaced with free-licensed images, maybe just remove all images that do not have one of the currently available "free licenses". I should include public domain images in that recommendation too, I suppose, because no one has the right to grant public domain material over to a free license due to the fact that they're already freer than free-license. Anyway, I imagine we all should be happy to know that since the Dukati company didn't disclose the artist, and assuming they don't disclose the artist before 2035, it'll be in the public domain in the EU, after which no one will have the rights to make it a "free" image in the EU. In the US, we'll simply need to wait until 2060AD, after which no on will have the right to make it a free image in the US. But I digress somewhat. ... Kenosis 14:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Which is why it would be simpler to require all non-free image rationales to use a 10-point template where the case for each NFCC criteria at the time of uploading is dealt with. This could also be done at IfD, where every nominator would be required to give their opinion on each NFCC for that image. It would be acceptable to put "no opinion". The IfD could then swiftly comes to a consensus on most of the criteria and squabble over NFCC#8 as usual... Carcharoth 15:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was:

Image:Spectre30.jpg

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Image:Spectre30.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by J Greb (notify | contribs).
Whether it does nothing or not for the article should be discuseed on the article's talk page. Not here. -Nodekeeper 08:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Image deleted. Excessive number of fair use images on the page to identify the character. Nothing significant about this image and no critical commentary in the article about the image. -Nv8200p talk 03:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Image:Poop.jpg

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Image:Poop.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by TobiSamoht (notify | contribs).
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was:

Image:FredThomsonFBO.jpg

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Image:FredThomsonFBO.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by DCGeist (notify | contribs).
  • Delete per WP:NFCC#8, a non-free photo of this actor is not needed to demonstrate that he worked for this particular organization. Videmus Omnia Talk 02:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As the content of this Featured Article makes clear at multiple points, the actor was the studio's most bankable star and one of the biggest movie stars in the industry during the period he worked for the studio. Throughout the recorded history of publishing since soon after the introduction of the medium of photography, images of people who have achieved fame working for "particular organizations" have been deemed crucial to studies of the history of those organizations. The "argument" for deletion of this image is puerile and ludicrous not sensible; it fails to recognize the fundamental and significant role that historical images of a movie star play in informing the reader about the cultural and production context in which he worked and in which the studio operated.—DCGeist 02:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I think it does add to the article's value. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • KeepThis article has passed a featured article review. The editor that submitted this IfD submitted this for no other reason than it's a 'non free' image, because clearly it has utility to the article from a historical perspective, and fair use concerns have been addressed. -Nodekeeper 08:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • HAve the concerns raised on this IFD been discussed in the featured article review? If so, please, provide us this useful link. If not, what's the point in mentioning the featured article review here? Are you saying that just because some problem wasn't spotter earlier it can't be discussed now? --Abu badali (talk) 16:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • KeepOnce again, the image is crucial to this high-quality article. The importance of the person illustrated to the history of the film studio is made clear at several points in the article. Mr. Badali, no "problem" of any sort has been "spotted" or mentioned. The person who put this image up for deletion expressed an entirely subjective view that it was not "needed" for the article. First off, the image serves a purpose well beyond to "demonstrate that he worked for this particular organization." This sort of image is fundamental to an understanding of culture and cultural history. Second, this is a featured article. Everyone who participated in the featured article review process made a determination about the image's "usefulness" and "singificance" as we did about everything else in the article. Different opinions about such subjective matters should be brought up on the article's discussion page, where all interested parties can address them--especially when its an A-class or featured article. This venue, where only the person who uploaded the image is officially notified, is an entirely inappropriate place for such basically subjective efforts to delete article content. Thank you.DocKino 22:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you do not like policy post a note to Talk:Jimmy_Wales Nodekeeper 11:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's no matter of policy being debated here. It's a matter of process. Those who are looking to make deletions are reaching entirely subjective conclusions about the value of certain images on an ad hoc basis in fields with which they are clearly unfamiliar and perhaps not even particularly interested. Concerns about the value of images are legitimate per policy, but they should be raised in a way that as many people can weigh in as possible on this subjective issue--that's good process. If after a full and open discussion that takes place beyond the small precinct of this specialized page, the value of a given image seems negligible, then it can in good faith be brought here and proposed for deletion--not on the basis of a single person's opinion, but a real conversation on the matter. This image, for instance, gives all sorts of information that can not be conveyed in a reasonable amount of text--about the era in which it was taken, what a leading star looked like then, what kind of hair and clothing was in fashion for a genre star, what sort of image the studio was identified with. All of that could have been made clear by a simple query on the article's Talk page if Mr. Omnia had made that good faith effort.DocKino 20:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
None of the points you raise, concerning the era, appearance of a star, hair and clothing, image of a studio, etc. are even raised in the article in which this image appears. Videmus Omnia Talk 02:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If I may. (A) That's incorrect--the article does cover both the era and the image of the studio. (B) That's irrelevant--as Dr. K explained, historical cultural images provide us with a wealth of supplementary information on top of what's explicitly referenced in an article's text. Readers of reference works appreciate this greater breadth of understanding of the culture of a given place and time, valuable information transmitted visually.—DCGeist 17:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This image is public domain anyway. But as long as it's characterized as "fair-use", a mere notice to "fix the rationale so it states that it's public domain" ought be adequate. As to the four fair-use criteria of US copyright law, it's a no brainer. As to the Wikipedia WP:NFCC, it appears to me that only #8 is arguable, and that's what's being argued here. As far as I care, if the local consensus says it helps the article significantly, I support its use under NFCC #8. ... Kenosis 17:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Nv8200p just left a note on my talk page about the possibility of PD status of this image. I don't think it's merely possible, but virtually certain. I quickly researched the history of FBO and RKOs acquisition of it in the late 1920s, and also looked in the US Copyright Office online records to see if there were any renewals in the early fifties. I searched the US copyright records (e.g., here) to see if either RKO or FBO renewed any copyright after 28 years for works that are not motion pictures or musical compositions, e.g., periodicals, collections of photographs, etc.. As far as I can tell, there are none under either FBO or RKO.
    In the EU, just to be additionally cautious about the analysis, it's public domain because unattributed or corporate "works" lose copyright 70 years after first publication where no author is disclosed, and it's been well in excess of 70 years. Frankly, though, I doubt that this is relevant, since it was published in the US by a US company. ... Kenosis 19:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete After reading Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Film Booking Offices of America and Wikipedia:Peer review/Film Booking Offices of America/archive1, I find no review of the images in the article other then "well illustrated" in the peer review and discussion about the logo versus a movie poster at the top of the article. This significance of the image was never commented on. The article would have made FA status without the image. Reading the article, it seems as if Joseph Kennedy was more important to the studios success then Fred Thomson. Kennedy was the one who signed Thomson. An image of Kennedy would be more crucial than this one. This image says it it an RKO publicity photograph, but I cannot verify that and I question its source. Thomson looks older and this may be an image from Paramount, which would put it out of context in the FBO article. -Nv8200p talk 20:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image kept. Research shows image is in the public domain. -Nv8200p talk 20:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Image:Konqueror web browser.png

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Image:Konqueror web browser.png (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Tyler Jones, Marquis de Paris (notify | contribs).
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The result of the discussion was:

Image:CowboyCopPoster.jpg

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Image:CowboyCopPoster.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by DCGeist (notify | contribs).
Also: Image:TarzanGoldenLion.jpg
    • Well, no, Mr. Quadell, it really isn't, as I've attempted to explain. Look, let's take this case as an example. A reasonable amount of text cannot come close to approximating all the information these posters convey--about the nature of the films the studio produced, about how they were marketed,about what their stars looked like. And their value goes well that--good encyclopedic cultural history can inform us about all sorts of things beyond

the immediate topic--while serving the article in a vital way, these images also, efficiently, inform us about the era in which they were made and in which the studio operated: they tell us about graphic design, they tell us about ideas of heroic posture and behavior, they show us what people thought to be attractive in that time and place looked like.

    • Now I can make that case--and others can agree with or challenge it--but I can only make it because the contributor who happened to upload the images informed me of this situation because I'd participated in the article's featured review process. Now what about all the other people who might be interested in the article? Who really care about the topic? Shouldn't they have a fair chance to express their opinion about the images' value before someone--someone who, it appears, has no particular interest in the field of cinema history--decides totally on an individual basis to bring the image up for deletion out of the view of the general readership? Yes, I know, you can keep doing it the way that you are--but that doesn't make it anywhere close to right.DocKino 20:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • This should probably be raised on the policy pages. Videmus Omnia Talk 02:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'd just like to reiterate Mr. Omnia, I don't believe I'm raising a question of policy, but of process--basically, the choices you and others who have concerns about images' propriety make in addressing those concerns. I appreciate that this isn't the ideal forum for this debate, but it's where I landed and it's exactly where, to me, the process seems a bit out of whack.DocKino 21:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up Per Quadell's observation above, the images for each poster appear to show the entire poster and no copyright notice, as would then have been required for copyright protection. To verify that the posters are public domain, I did a search of U.S. copyright renewals for the Cowboy Cop poster (pub. 1926) and the Tarzan poster (pub. 1927), covering the years 1953 through 1955 ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]). This search reveals no copyright renewals for this poster or any collection of material that might encompass this poster, as would have been required to maintain copyright protection, if any. I have changed the image description pages to reflect the fact that these images are public domain.—DCGeist 16:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image kept. Research shows that image is in the public domain. -Nv8200p talk 20:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: JoshuaZ 20:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Fred2004.JPG

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Image:Fred2004.JPG (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Jibbajabba (notify | contribs).
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: deleted JoshuaZ 20:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Soatrader logo med.png

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Image:Soatrader logo med.png (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Kyngas (notify | contribs).
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: deleted JoshuaZ 20:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Nympho_logo.gif

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Image:Nympho_logo.gif (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Dr. Conner (notify | contribs).
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Image:Environmental studies.gif

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Image:Environmental studies.gif (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Govind029 (notify | contribs).

Image:PubgolfleicesterUK.jpg

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Image:PubgolfleicesterUK.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Aproctor1 (notify | contribs).

Image:FH.gif

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Image:FH.gif (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Bgoletz (notify | contribs).

Image:Vampiranurmi.jpg

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Image:Vampiranurmi.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Pepso (notify | contribs).

Image:Going_to_disneyworld1.jpg

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Image:Going_to_disneyworld1.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Staxringold (notify | contribs).

Image:Trailstudio.gif

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Image:Trailstudio.gif (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Pepso2 (notify | contribs).
The opposite is true. Ed Dodd and his staff did not create the comic strip Mark Trail inside a hermetically sealed urban skyscraper. In keeping with Dodd's environmental concerns, as evident through the windows in the photo (and amplified in the caption and body copy), they worked in the midst of a forest, which had the same name as the forest depicted in the comic strip. Pepso2 18:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As Pepso2 describes, this image provides very valuable information about the Mark Trail working environment--both the forest setting in which the studio was located and the layout, physical materials, and ambience of the studio itself. While the text of the article leads us to understand the significance of the image, we learn much more from it text alone could tell us.—DCGeist 16:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • KeepYes, this really is an excellent image that tells us so much about how the comic strip was created and how the place where it was created affected its style and content. I don't see how text could convey all that this picture does.DocKino 21:23, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Image kept -Nv8200p talk 02:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result of the discussion was:

Image:Anaca.jpg

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Image:Anaca.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Pepso2 (notify | contribs).
No longer true. Much material about Alicia Castro's book has now been added at Anacaona (all-girl band). Pepso2 15:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This shows how non-free material can damage the project. In order to justify the use of a non-free image uploaded to show what some person looks like, a POV-filled original analysis of a non-notable book's plot is added to an article. Delete the image and the recently added paragraph. --Abu badali (talk) 16:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The POV is in a review, and the purpose of a review is to provide POV. Pepso2 16:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I might point out that even if what Abu claims is true, that there is clearly no non-free equivalent of a 75 year old band. It would be a shock if they weren't all dead right now; in any case, a modern photo of the women would not do it justice. Meets criteria for nonfree usage. The Evil Spartan 17:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep - I see no problem with the image, as long as the advertising paragraph stays out of the article. I also found it quite annoying that the image had been repeatedly scaled to 300px. I think it would be more appropriate to put the image and the deleted paragraph in a separate article, like Anacaona (book). --El Cazangero 01:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image deleted. Image is not in an article discussing the book, but in an article about the underlying subject matter of the book. - Nv8200p talk 20:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Image:Great_Lakes_Brewing_Co_Eliot_Ness_label.jpg

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Image:Great_Lakes_Brewing_Co_Eliot_Ness_label.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by CrypticBacon (notify | contribs).

Image:Storm_vid_recording.jpg

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Image:Storm_vid_recording.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Silver_Sonic_Shadow (notify | contribs).
  • Non-free comic strip panel being used to illustrate a tangentally related subject; the illustrated point is pretty simple ("Stormtrooper armor has a built in POV video recorder") and does not require an image at all let alone a non-free one. Eleland 14:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Lotionplay.jpg

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Image:Lotionplay.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Urso (notify | contribs).
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The result of the discussion was:

Image:Kned001-corina.jpg

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Image:Kned001-corina.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Urso (notify | contribs).
  • Magazine cover used to illustrate what the person looks like. Abu badali (talk) 16:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • that's not what the description says- the dvd cover is to illustrate the controversy which surrounded the fact that she wore her official leotard in this DVD. Otherwise, there would have been no controversy, so how does this render it non-notable? Also, how could the image be replaced given that all images associated with the controversy are either covers, copyrighted photos or video? Urso 18:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image deleted. Image can only be used in article about DVD, not underlying subject matter. -Nv8200p talk 02:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Image:Hess.jpg

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Note: I've combined this nomination with several similar other ones, per WP:BOLD The Evil Spartan 18:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Hess.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Kenosis (notify | contribs).

IMPORTANT NOTE: The proposal here is to apply this IfD to all the images listed immediately below this note, based upon the precedent set in the just-concluded Ifd of Image:Oneill.jpg. The consolidated list of images for which this IfD presently applies is:

Image:Hess.jpg - Claimed to be PD, but source states Copyright © The Nobel Foundation 1936
Image:Jean_Baptiste_Perrin.jpg - Claimed to be PD, but source states Copyright © The Nobel Foundation 1926
Image:SinclairLewis1930.jpg - Claimed to be PD, but source states Copyright © The Nobel Foundation 1930
Image:Yeats1923.jpg - Claimed to be PD, but source states Copyright © The Nobel Foundation 1923
Image:Heisenberg.jpg - Claimed to be PD, but source states Copyright © The Nobel Foundation 1932
Image:Schrodinger1933.jpg - Claimed to be PD, but source states Copyright © The Nobel Foundation 1933
Image:Chadwick.jpg - Claimed to be PD, but source states Copyright © The Nobel Foundation 1935
Image:GeorgeBernardShaw-Nobel.jpg - Claimed to be PD, but source states Copyright © The Nobel Foundation 1925
For a similar case, see this previous ifd. --Abu badali (talk) 21:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IMPORTANT NOTE:The previous IfD is under DRV review owing to the questionable judgment exhibited by the closing admin. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another Important Note: the previous IFD decision to delete was overturned upon appeal at DRV. I've posed some questions about the precedent here. – Quadell (talk) (random) 13:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Wikipedia does not work on precedent, but if that matters, the "the just-concluded Ifd of Image:Oneill.jpg" was unanimously overturned at DRV, since Quaddell, despite being involved in the discussion, closed it against both acceptable procedure and consensus. "Contempt for Wikipedia" is not an acceptable "precedent". Guettarda 13:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. In the US, virtually no copyrights were ever renewed in the US. Copyright Office for photographs published in this time span, and a search of the US. Copyright Office records reveals no renewals of periodicals or submissions to periodicals by the Nobel Foundation. Thus, it is in the public domain in the United States. In the European Union, copyright expires after 70 years for "works" (such as photographs) where a natural person is not publicly named as the author. In the European Union, under EU Copyright Directive, Article 1, §§1-4, where the language is quite straightforward, this image is "anonymous" or "pseudonymous", published under an organizational name to which the lifespan of a natural person is not applicable. Thus any copyright expired 70 years after its publication date, and it is in the public domain in the European Union. ... Kenosis 17:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Abu badali, your predispositions and style of argument have already been addressed in the recent administrative proceeding. No one here is suggesting that an old assertion of copyright be ignored. Rather, they should be closely paid attention to, but viewed in light of laws about the limits of copyright. In the US, these images were not, according to the US Copyright Office records, renewed, so all of them have been in the public domain in the US since the early 1960s at latest (28 years after each was published with that original "©" notice). In the EU, they expired 70 years after the original copyright notice, because you can't copyright something under an organization name and then claim "Oh, it's 70 years after the photographer dies". ... Kenosis 15:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep - I believe you've nominated this at the wrong place, Abu. Even if it's copyrighted, it's clearly non-replaceable, passing WP:NFCC. You might try WP:PUI. The Evil Spartan 18:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Changed to neutral, pending the outcome of Kenosis' exchange with the Nobel foundation. If they assert this kind of claim to a photograph, and they can show the copyright was renewed, they it clearly should be deleted as a copyright violation. Fair use does not mean we can willy-nilly ignore copyright laws when they're asserted. However, if the copyright was not renewed, obvious keep. The Evil Spartan 13:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem here is not "willy-nilly ignoring copyright laws", but rather is somewhat the opposite. I have not, nor do I necessarily intend to, email the Noble Foundation (though I might -- I used the words "if I email the Nobel Foundation... [it would be with roughly the questions posed below in this thread]"). The main issue here is that a thorough search of the U.S. Copyright Office records reveals the following: (1) The Nobel Foundation does not appear to have filed any renewals; so therefore these images would be in the public domain after 28years from the copyright date given by the Nobel Foundation (the filing with the USCO is a requirement to extend copyright beyond 28 years); and (2) In the EU, if the Nobel Foundation or the laureates hired someone to take these photographs, they expired 70 years after the first publication, given by the copyright date the Nobel Foundation put on the online source page of the image. In the case of the Hess photo, it is 1936, so it became public domain 70 years later in 1996. We also still have some images going to as late as 1947 to attend to, which also are in the public domain. None of this requires a direct response from the Nobel Foundation (though I admit it would be nice). ... Kenosis 15:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Being "non-replaceable" is just the first of our 10 criteria for non-free material. Images from nobelprize.org, for instnace, fail criterion #2, as the website licenses these images for a fee. From their legal notice, "For uses of photos in general, permission from the Nobel Foundation, and in certain cases from the photographer, is required" and "Nobel Web is selective in granting such permission, and when Nobel Web does grant permission Nobel Web generally impose a fee". See this previous IFD for an example of tentative fair use of nobelprize images. --Abu badali (talk) 20:46, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The Nobel Foundation seems to claim copyright. Kenosis claims it isn't likely that they do hold the copyright, and I have no idea how likely it really is. . . but they seem to claim that they hold the copyright, and it's certainly plausible that they could. I think that that these photos could be kept as non-free images, though. – Quadell (talk) (random) 20:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did not claim "it isn't likely"! Please don't misrepresent me by attaching your conclusions based on what I said. I claimed it is in the public domain. ... Kenosis 23:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly don't mean to misrepresent you. But, respectfully, you can't know that they don't hold the copyright. It's plausible that they could have renewed the copyright in the 28th year, which would mean they would still be copyrighted, and none of the online databases list copyright renewals for non-books before 1978. (I'm deeply in your debt for pointing me to those databases, however.) – Quadell (talk) (random) 00:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And you can't know that your best friend didn't commit a serious crime unless you look it up. There is no record of any renewal. The logic you are using is specious at best. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They who, and where is your proof and how is that issue valid? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another comment: I have e-mailed the Nobel Foundation in the past, asking them to release their photos of the 2007 winners under the GFDL. They said no, but they were responsive to e-mail. Would anyone be willing to e-mail them and ask them point blank whether or not they hold the copyright to these photographs? The e-mail address is info@nobel.se – Quadell (talk) (random) 00:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Apples and oranges as well as supposition. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you, Quadell. If I myself choose to email the Nobel Foundation, it will be with the question already clearly put forward in the image pages at issue here, which is, roughly put: "(1) Did the Nobel Foundation ever submit any asserted copyrights to still-photography images to the United States Copyright Office such that copyright for this photograph might, according U.S. law, be extended beyond 28 years from the date of original publication of this photorgraph? (1-a) Since such filing does not appear to be visible in the US Copyright Office records for the applicable years, where might one find such filing of copyright renewal in the United States?; (2) With respect to present European Union copyright law, did the Nobel Foundation publicly disclose the name of the phototgrapher(s) of Nobel Laueates such that the public would reasonably be aware of the name(s) of the natural person(s) who actually created the "works"? [To wit, more specifically, have said photographs in the original form been publicly attributed to an "author" in conjunction with the publication of such photographs, without respect to corporate itdentify or other boilerplaete involving group pseudonymous behavior, but with respect to individual behavior such that an actual author of the work who conceivably might ever have actually taken the photograph (i.e. the fellow you hire to come into your banquet to run the camera, the "author"], and might have, for example, sold such natural person's rights to such photographs according to which the natural lifespan of such author may be calculated, but which ""author" or "hired photographer" was never reasonably disclosed to the public in conjunction with the publication of the work of said (as yet unidentified) person behind the camera')?? (2-b) If the Nobel Foundation has published said still photograph such that the identity of the original photographer may reasonably be said to have been made available to the public, please disclose all where places where such disclosure may be found, to the best extent known by the Nobel Foundation. ___________" ... Kenosis 06:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC) ... In other words, lacking evidence of a coyright renewal befpre 28 years after publication, it is public domain in the US. And, lacking evidence that the real name of a real person/photographer (not just a foundation or organization or corporation) was published in conjunction with the photograph in a way that 70 years after the death of any asserted author can actually be calculated as part of the public discussion of the matter, it's public domain in the European Union 70 years after the original publication, the "copyright date". ... Kenosis 07:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep These images are clearly PD. I'm not sure if a few of you pay attention to copyrights, but if you've ever noticed, renewals are stated as well as the original; e.g. (c) 1930 Farty Owls Ltd, (c) renewed 1967 Fatty Towels. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 09:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep per Kensosis and Jim. JoshuaZ 18:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'm not sure where people are getting the copyright dates from here. I keep seeing a general copyright statement at the bottom of the Nobel website giving the copyright as the year in which the Nobel was given. I interpret that to apply to the text of the Nobel statement, biographies and speeches. I've been looking through the terms of use, but can't find anything definite about photograph credits and dates. Anyway, I've found several of the photos elsewhere. The Hess photo is a crop of one at the American Institute of Physics (AIP): here: "AIP Emilio Segre Visual Archives, E. Scott Barr Collection". I'm still trying to work out where E. Scott Barr got the image from, and whether the Nobel people got the photo from him or not. The Perrin photo is more clear cut. It is clearly A6 in the AIP collection here: "Credit: Photograph by A.B. Lagrelius". This is the same Lagralius as in "Lagrelius & Westphal", and I can't be sure, but they seem to have taken lots of Nobel photos. The Heisenberg AIP picture is here: "Photograph by A. Bortzells Tryckeri, courtesy AIP Emilio Segre Visual Archives". The Schrodinger picture is in the AIP collection as well: here (it's been flipped over), but the information there says "Courtesy Brittle Books collection" and "From the book: 'Bahnbrecher des Atomzeitalters : grosse Naturforscher von Maxwell bis Heisenberg' by Friedrich Herneck, Berlin: Buchverlag Der Morgen, 1977." so it seems AIP didn't get the image direct (in fact, most of their images, like many archives, will have been donated as collections). The final science Nobel here, the Chadwick one, is here: "Photograph by Bortzells Esselte, Nobel Foundation, courtesy AIP Emilio Segre Visual Archives, Weber and Fermi Film Collections" Note that the name "Bortzells" crops up again. Anyway, I think this means that in many of these cases the original photographer is known, but the Nobel Foundation are not publicising the names for whatever reason. Quite what this means for the arguments put forth here, I don't know. I'll leave that to others to decide. Carcharoth 03:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Responsive Comment: In other words, the Hess photograph is unattributed and was first published no later than the 1936 Nobel copyright, and therefore is correctly termed public domain in both the US and the EU. As to those for which an author is found to be published, just to be safe, they should be removed from the category associated with Template:PD-EU-no author disclosure. All of these are public domain in the United States, since none were renewed prior to the expiration of 28 years. ... Kenosis 12:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC) ... OK, done for Heisenberg, Perrin and Chadwick--removed PE-EU-no author disclosure. Thanks Carcharoth. ... Kenosis 13:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No problem. I will add the extra information to the images soon. It is always worth searching at a wide range of archive locations. You may reveal contradictory or incorrect information over a 70 year+ history for an image, but put together it can sometimes make sense. Imagine if we had to try and pick out the history of maps or artworks that are hundreds of years old! Thank goodness for public domain by age! Carcharoth 16:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • But now, let's look in more detail at the process by which the Nobel information and photos are created, gathered and distributed. It might be too simplistic to say "first published no later than the 1936 Nobel copyright". My feeling is that this varies from case to case. Let's look at the Hess biography from the Nobel website. The bit of text at the bottom tells us:

    "From Nobel Lectures, Physics 1922-1941, Elsevier Publishing Company, Amsterdam, 1965. This autobiography/biography was first published in the book series Les Prix Nobel. It was later edited and republished in Nobel Lectures."

    Looking at the details of the series 'Les Prix Nobel':[7], we find that:

    "Since 1901 the Nobel Foundation has annually published a series of yearbooks, Les Prix Nobel, containing reports from the Nobel Prize Award Ceremonies in Stockholm and Oslo, as well as the biographies and Nobel Lectures of the Nobel Laureates. Up to 1988, the texts were published in the language in which they were presented. Since then the material in Les Prix Nobel has been mostly in English."

    Now, this refers to the text of the biographies and lectures, and doesn't help us with the images, but it does give us an insight into the processes involved. Each year, the Nobel Committee contact the laureates, and the laureates submit biographical information and write their speech, attend the ceremony (though some can't make it), and the laureates presumably either send the Nobel Committee a photo, or have their photo taken by a Nobel photographer in Sweden. It seems that all this information is then gathered together and published in their yearbook, an annual report. The information is then reused later, as in the 1965 Elsevier publication "Nobel Lectures, Physics 1922-1941", but this process involves editing and translation. It could also, presumably, involve adding new or better photos. It is also unclear whether photos were always taken. It is entirely possible that when the information was recycled and republished yet again when the Nobel website was set up, that someone said "Look, no photo! Go find one!", or even that an old Nobel photo was published for the first time when the website was set up. What is really needed is for someone to get hold of the individual yearbooks Les Prix Nobel, and see if the photos now on the Nobel website were used in there. Or ask the Nobel Foundation to explicitly state on their website where the photos came from and where they were first published. If the answer is "we got them from various sources, sometimes taking them ourselves and sometimes using ones that were sent to us, and in all cases we published them in that year's edition of Les Prix Nobel ", then things will become a lot clearer. I had a quick look around in rare book websites for 'Les Prix Nobel', and found this one from 1938. The description on that website (search for Prix) says:

    "LES PRIX NOBEL EN 1938. Stockholm: P.A. Norstedt & Soner, 1939. Octavo. 77pp., 8pp. Speech given by Fermi on Artificial Radioactivity Produced by Neutron Bombardment FIRST EDITION, 17pp. Speech given by Pearl Buck on The Chinese Novel. Includes introduction by the committee in Swedish and English, also a short biography of Fermi and Buck with photographic portraits of each author with tissue guards. A fine copy bound in blue cloth, boards triple ruled in gilt with title gilt to spine and upper board, all edges gilt. A very scarce title." (my emphasis, and available for $300 if anyone is feeling generous)

    I would bet a lot of money that the photographic portrait of Fermi in that book is the one shown on the Nobel website here, which, returning to AIP, is this one, credited simply "Emilio Segre Visual Archives". This could mean that AIP have neglected to provide the full history of the image, or it could mean that Emilio Segre himself took the photo or collected it from some other source without realising or recognising the Nobel connection. As for the Elsevier publications from 1965, I haven't tracked them down, but many collections of Nobel lectures are still widely available, as this Amazon search shows. Anyway, hope this sheds more light on the fascinating world of Nobel Prize publications. I challenge someone to turn that link blue! :-) Carcharoth 16:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: By the way, the exact response given to me about photos of the 2007 laureates was "The Nobel Foundation does not distribute portrait photos, or give permission to reprint photos of the Nobel Laureates due to copyright considerations (new policy from March 2007). I would recommend you to contact a major photo agency to make your enquiry." I don't know, but it sounds like they are saying they don't hold the copyright to these photos. I wish they were more clear. – Quadell (talk) (random) 13:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I have written the Nobel Foundation to ask point-blank whether they claim copyright on the images on their site, and if not, whether they have any information on who holds the copyright (if anyone). They were relatively swift in responding last time, so I suspect I'll have an answer in a few days. Please hold off on processing these images until I hear back. In my opinion, if the Nobel Foundation explicitly claims copyright, then we should not use the images. If they explicitly claim that the images are in the public domain, then we should believe them. If they beat around the bush and don't give a straight answer, then, well, I guess it's up to the closing admin to decide how to handle it. – Quadell (talk) (random) 13:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the US, at least, it doesn't matter unless they can show a renewal prior to the expiration of 28 years that might have been missed in a reasonable search (I trust that at this point in time I am not alone in having done such a search). My speculation is that, like the nuns in the IfD of Image:Josephine Bakhita.jpg and Wikipedia:Fair_use_review#10_August, fundamentally they have better things to do than try to figure out who precisely owned copyright, if anyone, and in what country or countries, and what might be the status under present-day copyright law, or heaven forbid, does it actually belong to the public at large. ... Kenosis 14:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quadell, if they are responsive, it might be worth asking them to clarify the following that appears in their terms and conditions (which I linked above): "The following listed copyright protected material: photos of the Laureates, other photos, the Nobel Diplomas, the Nobel Lectures, speeches and biographies – of which the Nobel Foundation is the proprietor – and the Nobel Posters and the Swedish Nobel Stamps, of which a third party is the holder, are encompassed by special regulations." - ask them what the "special regulations" are. They also state "[everything] which appears on the Site is either proprietary to Nobel Web or used in accordance with applicable law or third party consents." - so you can ask them point blank here "are the photos yours or are you using them in accordance with some law, or with third party consent?" Finally, they say "For uses of other photos, permission from the Nobel Foundation, and in certain cases from the photographer, is required." - so a polite enquiry as to whether they always publish the name of the photographer would help. Also, date of first publication is unclear. I believe that they just put a copyright date of the "year of the Nobel Prize" at the bottom of each page - as they seem to be reusing the text that was written that year, or submitted by the laureate. The provenance of the photographs is less clear, as I am about to point out above. Carcharoth 16:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like notches on some unnamed lawyer's belt, yet another WP user gets overwhelmed by the legalese. I cannot knowledgeably address special regulations w.r.t. licenses involving third paries such as that presumably granted to the proprietor of Nobel Posters and Swedish Nobel Stamps. But, the words "[various material] of which the Nobel Foundation is the proprietor..." mean little or nothing more than that the Nobel Foundation is the one presenting the material, and that it's their compilation to which they assert lawfully available property rights. If the property right is no longer available, it's public domain, meaning the public owns it. Reproductions on their website of material they published in the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, and up until 1963, if they have not complied with US formalities such as renewing the copyright within 28 years, belong to the public, not to the Nobel Foundation. That includes even photographs that were commissioned by the Nobel Foundation-- those photographs belong to everyone insofar as US jurisdiction is concerned. In the EU, photographs published 1937 or earlier, the law is only slightly more complicated w.r.t. photographs from that era. If there's a clear notice of photograph authorship (the photographer, which must be a natural person, not an organization) to which the 70-years "post mortem auctoris," (past the death of the author) can be attached, the photographer or the photographer's "assignee" (whoever the photographer may have sold the rights to) can lawfully claim copyright. In this case, the use of such an image of a historically important person such as a Nobel Laureate may still be perfectly permissible, but under a different standard than an assertion of "public domain". At the moment, the distinction is important because of the vicious opposition to "fair use" in WP despite the legal validity of such use w.r.t. historically important persons such as Nobel laureates. At least that's my take on it... Kenosis 17:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - it is interesting to compare the way pictures are credited on the Nobel website for 1936 and 2006 (click on one set of image to see the copyright and/or photograph credit details). The former photos are not credited, while the latter are, though all the pages have "Photos: Copyright © The Nobel Foundation". The new policy of crediting the photos to the organisations or photographers seems to first start in 2005. Going all the way back to 1901, we have Wilhelm Rontgen. Compare the Nobel and AIP images. AIP say "Photograph by Gen. Stab. Lit. Anst., courtesy AIP Emilio Segre Visual Archives". I have no idea what "Gen. Stab. Lit. Anst." means, though it looks like a journal abbreviation to me. At a wild guess, Emilio Segre obtained the photo from a journal. Note that Rontgen did not deliver a speech, so we can't be sure in that case that the Nobel Foundation took the photo. Anyway, in 1901, I wonder whether the Les Prix Nobel yearbook even had photos? Yes, I know, 1901 is a bit old for these sort of discussions, but I thought it would be interesting to go back that far. Carcharoth 16:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Pbcookies.jpg

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Image:Pbcookies.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Wareh (notify | contribs).

Image:CSLEmperorRiverbank.gif

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Image:CSLEmperorRiverbank.gif (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Wareh (notify | contribs).

Image:Arrowmen.jpg

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Image:Arrowmen.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Genamuwi (notify | contribs).

Image:Anber.JPG

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Image:Anber.JPG (delete | talk | history | logs)

This image is copyrighted but was erroneously indicated as otherwise. Article for which this picture was uploaded was deleted after debate.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.226.89 (talk • contribs)

  • Comment The copyright for this image was claimed by the subject, David Anber. It may well be that the photograph once appeared in the Edmonton Journal as 70.48.226.89 has stated (date, article title and page number, please), but this does not necessarily mean that it is under copyright (or that the copyright does not lie with the subject). Having said all this, as the David Anber article has been deleted, I see no reason why the photo should not disappear as well. Victoriagirl 07:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Humbert_Balsan.jpg

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Image:Humbert_Balsan.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Jonathan F (notify | contribs).

Image:Humboldt_Broncos_RBC_2003.gif

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Image:Humboldt_Broncos_RBC_2003.gif (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by DMighton (notify | contribs).

Image:2005_trio.jpg

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Image:2005_trio.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Andi064 (notify | contribs).
  • Keep The derivatives point is correct. It was the wrong license to use, even though the band own and release it for their publicity. I have re-tagged this as Non-free promo with the same rationale.Andi064 18:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, the band still exists, and a new photo could be created. I don't believe this image passes WP:NFCC#1. – Quadell (talk) (random) 14:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Ceausesculosingpower.jpg

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Image:Ceausesculosingpower.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Desiphral (notify | contribs).
  • Keep, as it is said in its description, it is used for identification and critical commentary on Romanian Television post and its role in the Romanian Revolution of 1989. The fair use rationale states that a photo may be uploaded for identification and critical commentary on the station ID or program and its contents. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 22:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Very valuable screenshot actually shows dictator on Romanian TV at a crucial turning point in history. As noted in the articles, television played a crucial role in the downfall of Ceauşescu. This image both shows how the dictator looked at this important juncture (no free image could convey the same information) and helps us to understand the interaction between TV and the revolution, the way no text or nontelevisual image could.—DCGeist 17:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I don't believe this image shows any important encyclopedic information that couldn't be portrayed with a combination of free images and text. – Quadell (talk) (random) 14:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Revolutie-strada-multime.jpg

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Image:Revolutie-strada-multime.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Bogdangiusca (notify | contribs).
  • Beautifull and impressive image, not found on the source site, with copyright listed as "uncertain" in the image's description page, that is not necessary for the understanding of the article it's used in (although serves as a magnific illustration). Abu badali (talk) 22:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please note: This nomitation is not implying that the event depicted on this image is not notable. Explaining how notable and important the event his has nothing to do with keeping this image. --Abu badali (talk) 22:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The website changed since the president changed, so it's no longer there. I'm not sure who exactly owns the copyright, but I presume that the presidency had some right to display it on its website. bogdan 22:46, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Tvr_revolution_(1989).jpg

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Image:Tvr_revolution_(1989).jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Danu888 (notify | contribs).

Image:F12.jpg

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Image:F12.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Mekk (notify | contribs).
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Closed as keep Appears to be very like published prior to 1978 and so is almost certainly PD.

Image:Wyszyński.jpg

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Image:Wyszyński.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by 172 (notify | contribs).
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was:

Image:Ceausescucourt.jpg

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Image:Ceausescucourt.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Formeruser-81 (notify | contribs).
  • Unnecessary non-free image showing a dictator on trial, doesn't seem to add any noteworthy information that isn't alreadty conveyed with text Abu badali (talk) 22:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Again, this is a valuable screenshot that shows the dictator on Romanian TV at a crucial turning point in history. As noted in the articles, television played a crucial role in the downfall of Ceauşescu and its aftermath. This image both shows how the dictator looked at this important juncture while he was on trial for genocide and other crimes and helps us to understand the interaction between TV and his trial and ultimate execution, the way no text could. By the nature of the exceptional historical event depicted, no free image of it is likely to exist.—DCGeist 16:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image deleted. The head shot does not pass muster per WP:NFCC #8. The ideas presented in the discussion for keeping are original research.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Image:Houde.jpg

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Image:Houde.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Formeruser-81 (notify | contribs).

Image:Droegedead.jpg

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Image:Droegedead.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Formeruser-81 (notify | contribs).

Image:Gb-budge.gif

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Image:Gb-budge.gif (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Formeruser-81 (notify | contribs).
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: deleted JoshuaZ 20:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Contriblimits.jpg

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Image:Contriblimits.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Deus_Ex (notify | contribs).
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Image:Thatcher_europe.jpg

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Image:Thatcher_europe.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Deus_Ex (notify | contribs).
  • Non-free image showing a politician campaigning for a referendum, used to illustrate the information that she campaigned for this referendum. It doesn't seem to add any noteworthy information that isn't already conveyed with text. Abu badali (talk) 23:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Independentfrontpage10-05-05.jpg

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Image:Independentfrontpage10-05-05.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Deus_Ex (notify | contribs).
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was:

Image:Benito_Mussolini_1.jpg

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Image:Benito_Mussolini_1.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Vps (notify | contribs).

Image kept. Research shows image is in the public domain. -Nv8200p talk 02:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Image:Tadeusz_Mazowiecki1.jpg

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Image:Tadeusz_Mazowiecki1.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Emax (notify | contribs).

Image:Lech_Walesa_Solidarity_Time.jpg

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Image:Lech_Walesa_Solidarity_Time.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Piotrus (notify | contribs).

Image:David Dickinson.PNG

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Image:David Dickinson.PNG (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by ThePaper (notify | contribs).
Keep - The image is a reasonable cartoon whether or not a free photograph could be found or created for the David Dickinson article and whether or not this cartoon gets used there. If it wasn't used there it could illustrate an article on 'cartoons' or 'styles of drawing' for example. What criteria are you actually proposing it should be deleted under? JMiall₰ 23:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was:

Image:ARVN_soldiers.jpg

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Image:ARVN_soldiers.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by DO'Neil (notify | contribs).
  • Orphaned, no justification given for PD claim Abu badali (talk) 23:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please stop lying: [9]SuperElephant 00:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please, consider being civil. The source site says the image is from the National Archives and Records Administration and that it's "strongly believed to be in the public domain". Are images from the National Archives always PD? Is teachpol.tcnj.edu a reliable source for this kind of information? If so, the nomination may be considered withdrawn. --Abu badali (talk) 01:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • You wrote no justification given for PD claim and that is obviously false statement. Your doubts about legality of some images are not only beyond reasonable doubt, but beyond absurdity. It's hard to not take it as a sign of bad faith. SuperElephant 02:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, unless some reason can be found why this image would be in the public domain. "Some non-notable guy says he thinks it is, but doesn't give a reason" really isn't good enough. – Quadell (talk) (random) 14:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Doesn't give a reason? All images are strongly believed to be in the public domain. They were obtained from non-copyrighted U.S. government holdings and publications and from published works with clearly expired copyrights. Thus there are absolutely no restrictions on their use.[10] [11] --SuperElephant 20:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image deleted. Orphan. Not needed on Wikipedia. If public domain, upload to the Commons. -Nv8200p talk 02:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Image:Viking_Brothers.gif

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Image:Viking_Brothers.gif (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by M3n747 (notify | contribs).

Image:Jewel_ad.jpg

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Image:Jewel_ad.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Busjack (notify | contribs).
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Closed as PD. JoshuaZ 20:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Dixie_Square_Directory.jpg

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Image:Dixie_Square_Directory.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by SchuminWeb (notify | contribs).
Precisely. And definitely pre-1978, because it was already abandoned by then, which is why they used it in the Blues Brothers film. It's also valuable as an artifact by itself, as it's a good example of 1950s / early 1960s design work. Notice the stylized human figures, which dates it to that time. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article doesn't discuss the artwork on the cover design or any of those elements you discuss - to do so in an article about a mall would probably be off-topic. In any case, free images could be obtained to demonstrate any of the design elements you discuss above. Videmus Omnia Talk 02:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When you find some "free images" of that mall, get back to us. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unnecessary offense. Have you recently looked a Videmus's upload log? --Abu badali (talk) 04:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is the attitude of the deletionists that's unnecessarily offensive. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A little off-topic - I don't think I'm a deletionist, I'm passionate about adding free content - see User:Videmus Omnia/Free Images. There's no need to attack the motives of particular editors in discussing a good-faith content dispute. Videmus Omnia Talk 16:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are, in fact, a deletionist. There are people on this site that are obsessed with the notion that somebody is going to sue wikipedia for illustrations that were printed 40 or 50 years ago. Would that 10% as much energy were spent on more useful endeavors, such as addressing the lack of credibility of this site due to the hare-brained policy that "anyone" can edit. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Who in the hell mentioned "being sued" here? --Abu badali (talk) 16:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Copyright lawsuits. That's what the deletionists are obsessed about. Like somebody from an obsolete mall from 40 years ago is going to sue wikipedia for reproducing their pamphlet cover. Yeh, when pigs fly. We've got people threatening wikipedia for supposedly coddling child molestors and allowing them to promote their agenda here. That is serious stuff. Would that someone cared 10% as much about that kind of thing as they do about this illustration-deletion mania. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
note in some instances (if not most) it's a cultic following of GNU Project principals. Kinda like scientology, but with software. Not suggesting that of present editors. Still unsure as to what it is with their motives. -Nodekeeper 09:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Baseball Bugs, please go take a cup of tea, then come back to re-read this whole thread. You'll notice that nobody is suggesting we may get sued over this image. --Abu badali (talk) 17:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If there's no fear of a suit, there's no reason to delete it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Let me put it another way. I got the "someone could redraw it" speech from someone else. OK, so let's say someone takes that illustration and re-draws it. How is that any less of a copyright violation than displaying the original? Answer: It isn't. As my Mom would say, "Use your head for something besides a hat-rack." Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Redrawing a map, unless the specific unique details and features from this map were redrawn as well, would not be considered a derivative work. IMHO. And please, stay calm and avoid the personal remarks, thank you. Videmus Omnia Talk 17:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Enough with the lectures. I'm commenting on your approach to editing, not on you yourself, a courageous member of our military whom I hold in the highest esteem, I assure you. The thing is, this subject gets me riled, because certain editors will say "a free equivalent could be found", based on nothing. If they are so bloody sure a free equivalent is out there, they should go find one and stop hassling editors that are just trying to improve the content of this website. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is most likely a PD image, as I doubt that the copyright was renewed and/or it does not have a copyright notice on it. I do not have the time to chase this one down. Nodekeeper 12:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This image is irreplaceable and I will tell you exactly why.
  1. it is currently tagged as a copyrighted, fair use image. Redrawing it in such a way as to convey the same information (including the historically unique map, the unique sketch of the mall interior, the directory, etc.) would constitute copyright infringement.
  2. it is a unique historical document that shows what an ad and a directory looked like both from this time period and in this particular case, namely the Dixie Square Mall. It also has a full directory listing of all the stores that existed during said time period.
  3. The Dixie Square Mall does not exist as such anymore, and whoever was responsible for creating this piece of original artwork and information could never be located.
  4. there is ZERO chance of being sued over using this image. Anyone who says otherwise is suffering from Copyright Paranoia.
  5. It is quite likely that this image is considered public domain and is simply tagged incorrectly, as the corporation responsible for creating it has no further vested interest in it, as it ceased to exist 30 years ago. There is no copyright information present on this document, so retagging as PD-pre1978 and leaving it alone would seem appropriate. The Parsnip! 20:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have updated this image with the correct PD tag. Media was published before 1978 (the mall had closed by the end of 1978 and, as the pamphlet advertises "more than 50 shops under one roof", it could not have been printed in 1978 as there were only a couple of stores left by that point). Also, media contains no copyright information, so by the rules of PD-Pre1978, it is Public Domain. The Parsnip! 02:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Image:Incognito_sauna.jpg

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Image:Incognito_sauna.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Ashleyvh (notify | contribs).
  • Non-free ad for a bathhouse, used in the Bathhouse article, without mention of the ad (or much mention of that particular establishment) – Quadell (talk) (random) 23:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The article now includes reference to the Incognito sauna and makes explicit reference to the image and the story behind its inclusion. Note that the site that includes this image is Gay bathhouse rather than Bathhouse and the image relates to a particularly famous gay bathhouse (now closed). Ashley VH 09:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I still don't think it's adequate. The bathhouse itself is mentioned in one sentence: "Being identified in a sauna was still viewed by the press as scandalous; in November 1994 the Incognito sauna (see inset advert) made mainstream press as the gay sauna where a priest had died of a heart attack and two other priests were on hand to help out." I believe the ad does not provide any additional encyclopedic information. – Quadell (talk) (random) 14:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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