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December 2

Behaviour of a monkey in this painting

What would you say the monkey dressed in yellow and red, in the foreground, is doing in this painting?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:David_Teniers_(II)_-_Smoking_and_drinking_monkeys.jpg 194.120.133.17 (talk) 23:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Preparing to grind more tobacco for his friends to smoke? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Or is collecting the ground tobacco in a paper? Tobacco was supplied as whole dried and pressed leaves that had to be prepared at home. Alansplodge (talk) 16:38, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Based on the attire and attitude, the foreground monkey is not a member of the jolly company but a servant or perhaps the innkeeper.  --Lambiam 10:23, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

BTW, this wikicode:
[[:File:David Teniers (II) - Smoking and drinking monkeys.jpg]]
makes a nice wikilink to the image:
File:David Teniers (II) - Smoking and drinking monkeys.jpg
--CiaPan (talk) 19:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

The Amsterdam Pipe Museum states "we can hardly imagine how difficult it was to get your pipe lit. Our seventeenth-century ancestors used a coal, removed from the open fire with a fire tong and handed it in a brazier. With the fireplace tongs or a smaller one you could put a glowing coal on the pipe bowl." I think the monkey is crouched over a brazier, and the two little sticks propped up in the brazier are a tiny pair of tongs, another pair being in use by the monkey at the table. The monkey of interest certainly appears to be doing something with tobacco and paper, over the hot brazier. I don't know what.

In fact I'm not even right about the tongs: in this similar painting the same objects are clearly stick-like. But I think they hold embers somehow. There's a lot of them, I count 10, so presumably they're consumable, something like a Splint (laboratory equipment)?

Looking through Teniers's many paintings of smokers (there's a commons category), I see many figures doing the exact same thing over a little pottery brazier. #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6. Some are apparently rubbing the tobacco (what's meant by "ready-rubbed"?) but some are just heating it and placidly staring at it.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Drying it, perhaps? Johnbod (talk) 16:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps, but why do they all have wet tobacco? Perhaps the idea is to make the fragments shrivel up so they pack more densely into the pipe.  Card Zero  (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

It might be much fresher than we get it, pre-dried, today. Also at this period Netherlandish smokers of the rougher sort typically mixed their (expensive) tobacco with rather dangerous local plants like deadly nightshade, in English going under the rather non-specific term dwale (which we cover very poorly). That might need drying. Johnbod (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Wow, that sounds very dangerous (especially the lettuce). I thought Curing of tobacco was always done, and since it involve weeks of drying, sometimes up a chimney, five minutes extra drying seems confusingly futile. But maybe they cut corners on the curing in the early days?  Card Zero  (talk) 17:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, "ready rubbed" means you don't have to rub it with your fingers/ in your palms to break it up into strands. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Is it our erstwhile leader preparing a White Paper for the Tobacco and Vapes Bill? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

December 3

Duchess Marie's adopted child.

According to Gill, Gillian (2009). We Two: Victoria and Albert: Rulers, Partners, Rivals. New York: Ballatine Books. p. 408. ISBN 978-0-345-52001-2. "By 1843, Duchess Marie had adopted a child of humble parentage and was bringing him or her up as her own." Do we know anything more about this child? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 20:51, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

December 4

Subnational laws

In all federations, are there laws that differ between subdivisions, such as states, provinces, cantons or parts of countries like Bosnia-Hertzegovina or Belgium? Are there any laws that are dedicated to provinces of Argentina, Brazil, India, Mexico, Germany or Austria, or cantons of Switzerland? And in countries like US, Canada or Australia, are there any local laws that differ between local governments? --40bus (talk) 20:16, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Links to a number of relevant articles at State law... -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:17, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, not sure I'm a big fan of that page. It has one blue link, to US state law. All the other links are red, and many are to titles that would not naturally exist at all, unless maybe as redirects-from-misnomers or something. For example state law (Germany)? What's that? The German Länder are not called "states". --Trovatore (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

(I went ahead and searched, and to my bemusement our article on the Länder is at states of Germany. Hmm. I don't think that's a good title. I've always heard them called Länder, untranslated. They're broadly analogous to US states, I suppose, but not really the same thing.) --Trovatore (talk) 22:13, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I've been looking at Law of Texas in order to verify if its specifical statutes visibly differ from the German cases where the concept of Succession of states comes into question: following analyses exposed in de:Land (Deutschland) in German Wikipedia. "Succession of states" as discussed in that last article has a focus probably more highly contrasted in matter of "rights and obligations" than would apply to U.S. States. In the case of Texas law for example I note the importance of Common law as a defining influence, whereas in German law the same unifying level is rooted very differently. I imagine that the american linguistic pluralism at root also implies some repercussions in classes of problems turning to the inside rather than to abroad. Consequently perhaps the specific problems that appear and were shown in the idea of Secession. --Askedonty (talk) 00:16, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Askedonty: I'm really having trouble following that. What are you trying to figure out here? Is it about whether Land is reasonably translated as "state" in the sense that it's used in "US state"? If it is, I don't really follow the argument; I'm not even sure whether you're arguing for or against. If it's not then I'm even more confused. --Trovatore (talk) 01:06, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

German Wikipedia define the U.S.A. as a "föderal aufgebaute Republik" which is absolutely similar to the German "Bundesrepublik". To anybody there is a strange feeling at equating "State" with "Land" so I do not see what reluctance there has to be seeing there is an explanation for it. --Askedonty (talk) 01:19, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

No reluctance; I just wanted to understand better the structure of your argument. It was a little hard to figure out what you were getting at. --Trovatore (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

(Actually now I'm not sure about the "no reluctance" part, because on re-reading "I do not see what reluctance there has to be", I don't actually understand what that means either.) --Trovatore (talk) 01:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, no problem. "Länder" means that Germans living there might be have their families rooted there for ages. I do not think that aspect can be translated without some circumlocutions. --Askedonty (talk) 01:44, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

In several languages, the usual term for a Land of the FRG uses a part that is cognate to state. For example: Basque Alemaniako estatuak (pl), Danish Tysklands delstater (pl), Italian Stati federati della Germania (pl); Spanish Estado federado (Alemania). When used for a specific Land and no confusion with the sense of "federal state" can occur, this is often simplified, as in Italian lo stato di Baden-Württemberg.^[1][2][3]  --Lambiam 08:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

If the subdivisions have separate legislatures, there are bound to be differences.  --Lambiam 22:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The original question asks in countries like US...are there any local laws that differ.... In the US, "local" usually means city or county level. This will vary from state to state, but typically city and county laws are called "ordinances" and regulate comparatively lesser matters than state law (state law handles almost all one-on-one violent crime, for example). City ordinances tend to be about things like how often you have to mow your lawn or whether you can drink alcohol in public. Violations are usually "infractions" with relatively light penalties (though fines can be fairly heavy in some cases, like for removing a tree that you're not supposed to remove in Woodside, California). --Trovatore (talk) 23:02, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Like the USA, Australia is a federation of states, so it has federal (national) laws, state level laws, and municipality based laws. The latter are like city laws in the US, but not all our towns are called cities. Unlike the USA, our constitution is primarily about what states are responsible for and what the federal government is responsible for. HiLo48 (talk) 03:33, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

As with most things in the US, the distinction (if any) between "town" and "city" varies state-to-state. I'm most familiar with California, which has no official legal distinction, but the municipality in question can call itself "town" or "city" as it pleases, usually depending on whether it wants to give the suggestion that it's semi-rural (see Town of Los Altos Hills). Completely different are the New England towns, which I don't know much about except what I've read in Wikipedia. --Trovatore (talk) 03:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

The US Constitution does, in fact, delineate the powers of states and of the federal government. American states are not "subdivisions", they are separate entities which joined the USA. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Many subdivisions of current sovereign states, all over the world, were at some time themselves independent sovereign states that later gave up their sovereignty, sometimes not entirely voluntarily, and joined a larger entity. The USA is not exceptional.  --Lambiam 09:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

The American states have not given up their sovereignty. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:08, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Then why don't they apply for UN membership? Too much effort?  --Lambiam 03:40, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a different concept of sovereignty. The theory of sovereignty in much of the world is that it has to be unique; there is only one sovereign at a given place and time. The US, at least historically, explicitly rejects that idea, embracing divided sovereignty instead. --Trovatore (talk) 03:49, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

For that matter, recognized Indian tribes in the U.S. also have partial sovereignty, their own courts, etc. - Jmabel | Talk 05:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Readers who want to know more about this can check out our article on tribal sovereignty in the United States. Lots of interesting complications if you like that sort of thing. --Trovatore (talk) 19:44, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Lambiam -- In the second half of the 1940s, when Stalin was arranging things so that the Byelorussian SSR and the Ukrainian SSR had separate memberships in the United Nations (distinct from the Soviet Union's overall membership), he offered to agree to several U.S. states being admitted to the U.N. but the U.S. didn't take him up on it. AnonMoos (talk) 00:03, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I did not know that. Wow. Which states in particular were OK with Uncle Joe? Or was it just a number, let the states play musical chairs for it? --Trovatore (talk) 20:01, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Texas, Texas, Texas, Texas and Texas. —Tamfang (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it didn't get that far (probably stayed within the Truman White House and State Department), since it would have been a violation of the U.S. Constitution ("No State shall, without the Consent of Congress...enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power"). AnonMoos (talk) 00:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that the U.S. is at the extreme of how much laws about rather important matters vary from one jurisdiction to another: at the state level, differences include: whether or not there is a death penalty and (if so) under what circumstances it can be applied; whether cannabis is legal, and almost everything about its regulation (and more or less the same about alcohol, though no state currently has an outright ban); what is the minimum wage (defaulting to the federal minimum wage if the state does not pass its own); almost everything to do with education; almost everything about how elections are run. Also, since Dobbs, pretty much everything about abortion. In some areas, federal law reliably trumps state law, but not in everything (there is relatively little the federal government can do to prevent a state from passing a criminal law, other than either challenge it as unconstitutional or threaten to withhold funds unless they change it).

U.S. states usually have more ability to limit what smaller jurisdictions can do, so they can preempt local ordinances (usually the term, rather than "laws", at the city/town/etc. level, but just as enforceable). Still, often they don't do that, even in ways where you'd think they would. Where I live in Washington state, the minimum wage varies from county to county and city to city, with the state setting only a "minimum minimum". And it gets even more confusing because, for example, King County sets a minimum wage for unincorporated areas of the county, with incorporated communities able to go higher or lower. In Texas, the legality of selling alcohol is a "local option" patchwork. And sovereignty gets trickier in terms of Indian reservations, hence the "Indian casinos" even in states where gambling is otherwise illegal.

And, yeah, that's just more about the U.S., but I think people from elsewhere have trouble imagining what a patchwork it is here. - Jmabel | Talk 05:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

In Mexico: I know Mexico City legalized gay marriage years before the rest of the country. But if we have a decent article on federalism in Mexico, I haven't seen it.

In Spain, Catalonia semi-legalized cannabis (allowing "cannabis clubs"); there has been a bit of a fight back and forth with the central government over whether they can do that. And, of course, in Spain each autonomous community makes its own decisions about much of the educational system (which often involves laws) and most have opted to have responsibility for a health system devolved to them, though some have chosen not to take that on. For more on Spain, you can look at Autonomous communities of Spain#Constitutional and statutory framework. - Jmabel | Talk 05:23, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

December 5

BAA

BAA ambiguous meaning in context of aviation in UK, could you please check the discussion here 🙏 Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 07:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Gryllida This is the humanities reference desk. Do you have a question on humanities? Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

UK politics/senate

Hi, is this factually accurate link Thanks. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 07:59, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

See above. Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Scipion-Virginie Hébert (1793-1830)

Block evasion
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The only daughter of Jacques-René Hébert was a repubblican, bonapartist, or royalist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.56.174.231 (talk) 11:06, 5 December 2024 (UTC) This brief biography in French says that she was adopted as a one-year-old by an old associate of her father called Jacques Marquet who educated her with the aim of her becoming a schoolmistress. She maried a Protestant pastor called Léon Née (1784-1856) and both became leading figures in the pré-Réveil (we have an article on the Réveil which was an 1814 Protestant revival in France and Switzerland). They had five children, three of whom died early. She was later the vice-president of a society that gave Bibles to newly married couples. No mention of politics, but it seems that her interests were on a higher plane. Alansplodge (talk) 18:02, 5 December 2024 (UTC) can you if there are sources about her political ideas? 193.207.166.191 (talk) 18:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC) There are none. You can build hypotheses based on the facts that a) her father, Jacques-René Hébert was a promoter of the Cult of Reason, yet considering Jesus Christ a Sans-culotte (Jacques Hébert#Dechristianization, une religion sans base, fille d'aucune foi, ne procédant d'aucune révélation ) b) it is known that when she was two years old around her beside Jacques Marquet: "The child is surrounded by his uncle, Jacques Goupil, an invalid officer, Pierre Theuvenot, a ironmonger of the rue du Temple (section of Reunion), by Jean-Baptiste Gaignot, employed in the national domains, of the Guillaume Tell section, of Pierre-François Coignard, employee of the National Treasury, living in rue Denis, of his neighbour Joseph Barat, of Pierre François Joseph Guérin, printer in the rue du Temple, all sans-culottes friends of the family – the Revolution visibly offered many places in the New administrations, social advancement", c) she became an assistant teacher. --Askedonty (talk) 01:13, 6 December 2024 (UTC) Note that the Sans-culottes were not keen on any branch of Christianity, see Dechristianization of France during the French Revolution, so it seems unlikely that she would have followed her parents' political path. Protestants in France were a small minority that had been persecuted under successive monarchs before the Revolution. Alansplodge (talk) 10:23, 6 December 2024 (UTC) The author of this related blog is the opinion that Jacques Marquet himself might have been, at least, leaning toward protestantism. And the circumstances that are related are certainly convincing. --Askedonty (talk) 14:16, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

December 6

Provenance of some sculptures

There are a bunch of reliefs worked into the wall of the garden (rear) side of the former Casa Storck, now Frederic Storck and Cecilia Cuțescu-Storck Museum, in Bucharest. I can't tell whether they are older pieces collected by Frederic Storck (he certainly collected a number of such pieces; some are in the museum) or his own work, or a mix of the two. Clearly for some of these, if they are his own work they would have been imitative of older styles, but he was enough of a chameleon at times that I would not rule that out. (I had originally presumed they were all his, but I'm having second thoughts.) Wondering if anyone might know something more solid than I do; there is nothing in particular about this I've been easily able to find, except that they seem to date back at least very close to the origin of the building (1910s).

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
  Several more here

Jmabel | Talk 04:20, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Given my uncertainty, I've put these in a new commons:Category:Unidentified works in the Frederic and Cecilia Cuțescu Storck Museum that does not imply authorship by Frederic Storck. - Jmabel | Talk 04:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

No one with an idea on any of these? - Jmabel | Talk 19:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Georges Jacques Danton

Block evasion.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Are there any sites with the full biographies of their two sons Antoine (1790-1858) and François Georges (1792-1848)? An article in French can be found here. You'll need to access it through a library. Their basic biographical details are also available on various genealogy sites, but I expect you're looking for more than just that. Xuxl (talk) 16:02, 6 December 2024 (UTC) Can you search for others? Thank you. 87.5.237.18 (talk) 16:08, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

December 7

Why did Pippi Longstocking end up never getting married in her adulthood?

AKA her actress, Inger Nilsson. A lot of suitors would admire famous actresses and trample on each other to have a chance to court them, so a lot of actors and actresses end up getting married, but how come Pippi's actress never got married nor had kids after growing into an adult? --2600:100A:B032:25F0:1D7A:CC5D:1FC2:21E2 (talk) 06:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you know for certain that she wasn't/isn't married and/or has children? If so, from what source?

Some actors do not choose to make their private life public, so perhaps she was/is and does, and if not, many people (including my elderly single self) are simply not interested in getting married and/or having children. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.211.243 (talk) 11:37, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

She's still among the living, so maybe you could find a way to contact her, and ask her that nosy question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

If she really could "lift her horse one-handed", I suspect even male fellow equestrians would be very wary suitors. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

As an adult, she has chosen to keep her private life private.^[4] So be it. --136.56.165.118 (talk) 19:48, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that famous actresses actually try to avoid suitors that admire famous actresses. They don't want to marry someone who is in love with a fake public persona created by the PR department of a studio. Not only actors and actresses, but also a lot of bakers, chemists, dentists, engineers and so on do end up getting married. Being famous does not help.  --Lambiam 13:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I imagine she particularly would not welcome suitors who admired her as a preteen. —Tamfang (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

December 8

Petosiris of Arabia

The rendering of פטסרי as Petosiris seems to take inspiration from the far-flung. Is this the same name? If osiris is Osiris, what's the pt pt? Temerarius (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The source to which this is cited has throughout Peṭosriris. However, the transcription of Briquel-Chatonnet has pṭsry. Roche states the name means « qu’Osiris a donné ».^[5]  --Lambiam 18:33, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I may be mistaken, but wouldn't « qu’Osiris a donné » require פת?

Temerarius (talk) 03:39, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

December 9

Tribes and inceldom

One common saying in incel subcultures is that women are "programmed" to only have relationships with the 20% top men. This appears to be consistent (o at least not contradicted by) this phrase in the polygamy article: "More recent genetic data has clarified that, in most regions throughout history, a smaller proportion of men contributed to human genetic history compared to women."

Then again, while I've heard of modern tribes with weird marriage practices (for example the Wodaabe or the Trobriand people) I've never heard of tribes where 70% of men die virgins. Is there any tribe/society where something like that happens? (I realize that modern tribes are by definition different to Paleolithic tribes)90.77.114.87 (talk) 13:51, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

From what I've read in the past, it seems that hunter-gatherer cultures over the last 50,000 years ago probably tended to be mildly polygynous -- that is, certain men, due to their personalities and demonstrated skills, managed to attract more than one woman at a time into a relationship with them. (Usually a small number -- some men having large numbers of wives is associated more with agricultural civilizations, and women there could often have less freedom of choice than women in hunter-gatherer groups.) Everybody of both sexes is likely to be most attracted to high-status individuals, but under hunter-gatherer conditions, women also need help with child-rearing, which factors into their mating strategies. AnonMoos (talk) 14:19, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Under the classic anthropological band-tribe-chiefdom-state classification system (on Wikipedia, covered in the vaguely named Sociopolitical typology article), most historical hunter-gatherer cultures were "bands", while the Wodaabe and Trobriand people sound more like "tribes". AnonMoos (talk) 14:26, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Worth remembering, though: who has "sanctioned" relationships is not necessarily equivalent to who actually has sex. - Jmabel | Talk 19:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

It has been said (in mammals at least) that each 5% difference in mass for males means that their harem (zoology) has one more female. The sexual dimorphism#Humans article says that human males are 15% heavier that the females (previously I had heard 20%), suggesting that the harem-holder has three mates (or 4, if the 20% is correct). But this does not mean that 75% of human males never had sex. Firstly, holding a harem is a dangerous, short term job if other animals are any guide, with the harem master regularly killed or overthrown. Secondly, in current polygynous human cultures and in polygynous animals, there is a huge amount of cheating. Evidence from animals shows that when females cheat, they are statistically more likely to produce offspring from that mating than from a mating with their main male. Abductive (reasoning) 11:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

It's doubtful that there were commonly "harems" at any stage of human evolution which is very relevant to modern human behavior. Gorillas have moderate harems of often around 3 or 4 females (as opposed to elephant seals, which commonly have a harem size in the thirties). Robust Australopithecines may have been similar, but modern humans are not descended from them. What we know about attested hunter-gatherer societies strongly suggests that during the last 50,000 years or so (since Behavioral modernity) the majority of men who had wives had one wife, but some exceptional men were able to attract 2 or 3 women at a time into relationships. Men having large numbers of wives (real harems) wasn't too feasible until the rise of social stratification which occurred with the development of agriculture. AnonMoos (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

How do we know that? Because the same evidence is that prior to 50,000 years ago, humans did have harems. Abductive (reasoning) 20:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Where can we find this evidence?  --Lambiam 08:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

A Recent Shift from Polygyny to Monogamy in Humans Is Suggested by the Analysis of Worldwide Y-Chromosome Diversity. Abductive (reasoning) 14:53, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Scattering in US elections

What does scattering mean in the context of US elections? Examples: 1944 United_States presidential election in California#Results 1886 United States House of Representatives elections#Mississippi. Searching mostly produces Electron scattering, which is not the same thing at all! Is there (or should there be) an article or section that could be linked? Cavrdg (talk) 14:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

If you click on the source for Frederick G. Berry in the 1886 election, then on Scattering on the following page, it says it's for those with "No Party Affiliation". Clarityfiend (talk) 14:44, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Presumably from the phrase "a scattering of votes" (i.e. for other candidates than those listed)... AnonMoos (talk) 15:52, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that the intended word is "smattering". Cullen328 (talk) 09:12, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

December 11

Shopping carts

Where were the first shopping carts introduced?

• shopping cart and Sylvan Goldman say the Humpty Dumpty chain
• Piggly Wiggly says the Piggly Wiggly chain and quotes the Harvard Business Review

Both articles agree it was in 1937 in Oklaholma. I believe that Humpty Dumpty is more likely, but some high quality sources would be useful. TSventon (talk) 11:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

It seems to be a matter of some dispute, but Guide to the Telescoping Shopping Cart Collection, 1946-1983, 2000 by the Smithsonian Institution has the complex details of the dispute between Sylvan Goldman [of Humpty Dumpty] and Orla Watson. No mention of Piggly Wiggly, but our article on Watson notes that in 1946, he donated the first models of his cart to 10 grocery stores in Kansas City.

The Illustrated History of American Military Commissaries (p. 205) has both Watson and Goldman introducing their carts in 1947 (this may refer to carts that telescope into each other for storage, a feature apparently lacking in Goldman's first model).

Scalable Innovation: A Guide for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and IP Professionals says that Goldman's first cart was introduced to Humpty Dumty in 1937.

Make of that what you will. Alansplodge (talk) 13:30, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. I remember that the power lift arrangement mentioned in the Smithsonian's link was still an object of analysis for would-be inventors in the mid-sixties, and possibly later, even though the soon to be ubiquituous checkout counter conveyor belt was very much ready making it unnecessary. Couldn't help curiously but think about those when learning about Bredt's rule at school later, see my user page, but it's true "Bredt" sounded rather like "Bread" in my imagination. --Askedonty (talk) 15:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

On Newspapers.com (pay site), I'm seeing shopping carts referenced in Portland, Oregon in 1935 or earlier, and occasionally illustrated, at a store called the Public Market; and as far as the term itself is concerned, it goes back to at least the 1850s. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:18, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

But perhaps referring to a cart brought by the shopper to carry goods home with, rather than one provided by the storekeeper for use in-store? Alansplodge (talk) 16:14, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@Alansplodge, Askedonty, and Baseball Bugs: thank you for your help, it seems that the Harvard Business Review is mistaken and the Piggly Wiggly chain did not introduce the first shopping baskets, which answers my question. The shopping cart article references a paper by Catherine Grandclément, which shows that several companies were selling early shopping carts in 1937, so crediting Sylvan Goldman alone is not the whole story. TSventon (talk) 17:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Lilacs/flowers re: Allies in Europe WWII

At 53:20 in Dunkirk (1958 film), British soldiers talk about [paraphrasing] 'flowers on the way into Belgium, raspberries on the way out', and specifically reference lilacs. I imagine this was very clear to 1958 audiences, but what is the significance of lilacs? Is it/was it a symbol of Belgium? Valereee (talk) 21:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it's just that the BEF entered Belgium in the Spring, which is lilac time. DuncanHill (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

There are contemporary reports of the streets being strewn with lilac blossom. See here "Today the troops crossed the frontier along roads strewn with flowers. Belgian girls, wildly enthusiastic, plucked lilac from the wayside and scattered it along the road to be torn and twisted by the mighty wheels of the mechanised forces." DuncanHill (talk) 22:26, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Ah! That would explain it, thanks! Valereee (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

December 12

The USA adding a new state

If my understanding is correct, the following numbers are valid at present: (a) number of Senators = 100; (b) number of Representatives = 435; (c) number of electors in the Electoral College = 538. If the USA were to add a new state, what would happen to these numbers? Thank you. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 06:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The number of senators would increase by 2, and the number of representatives would probably increase by at least 1. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Thus, to answer the final question, the minimum number of Electors would be 3… more if the new state has more Representatives (based on population). Blueboar (talk) 13:54, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

In the short term, there would be extra people in congress. The 86th United States Congress had 437 representatives, because Alaska and Hawaii were granted one upon entry regardless of the apportionment rules. Things were smoothed down to 435 at the next census, two congresses later. --Golbez (talk) 14:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Let me re-phrase my question. (a) The number of Senators is always 2 per State, correct? (b) The number of Representatives is what? Is it "capped" at 435 ... or does it increase a little bit? (c) The number of Electors (per State) is simply a function of "a" + "b" (per State), correct? Thanks. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 21:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

As I understand it, it is indeed capped at 435, though Golbez brings up a point I hadn't taken into account -- apparently it can go up temporarily when states are added, until the next reapportionment. --Trovatore (talk) 21:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I suggest that (b) would probably depend on whether the hypothetical new state was made up of territory previously part of one or more existing states, or territory not previously part of any existing state. And I suspect that the eventual result would not depend on any pre-calculable formula, but on cut-throat horsetrading between the two main parties and other interested bodies. {The poster formerly nown as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.211.243 (talk) 21:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Nope, it's capped at 435. See Reapportionment Act of 1929. (I had thought it was fixed in the Constitution itself, but apparently not.) --Trovatore (talk) 21:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, one other refinement. The formula you've given for number of electors is correct, for states. But it leaves out the District of Columbia, which gets as many electors as it would get if it were a state, but never less more than those apportioned to the smallest state. In practice that means DC gets three electors. That's why the total is 538 instead of 535. --Trovatore (talk) 21:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC) Oops; I remembered the bit about the smallest state wrong. It's actually never more than the smallest state. Doesn't matter in practice; still works out to 3 electors for the foreseeable future, either way, because DC would get 3 electors if it were a state, and the least populous state gets 3. --Trovatore (talk) 23:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

December 13

economics: coffee prices question

in news report "On Tuesday, the price for Arabica beans, which account for most global production, topped $3.44 a pound (0.45kg), having jumped more than 80% this year. " [6] how do they measure it? some other report mention it is a commodity price set for trading like gold silver etc. what is the original data source for this report? i checked a few other news stories and did not find any clarification about this point, they just know something that i don't. thank you in advance for your help. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 01:32, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Gryllida, they seem to be talking about the "Coffee C" contract in the List of traded commodities. The price seems to have peaked and then fallen a day later

• explanation here
• I googled "coffee c futures price chart" and the first link was uk.investing.com which I can't link here
• if you have detailed questions about futures contracts they will probably go over my head. TSventon (talk) 01:54, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

thanks. i see the chart which you cannot link here. why did it peak and then drop shortly after? Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 04:08, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Financial markets tend to have periods of increase followed by periods of decrease (bull and bear markets), see market trend for background. TSventon (talk) 04:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

source for an order of precedence for abbotts

Hi friends. The article for Ramsey Abbey in the UK refers to an "order of precedence for abbots in Parliament". (Sourced to an encyclopedia, which uses the wording "The abbot had a seat in Parliament and ranked next after Glastonbury and St. Alban's"). Did a ranking/order of precedence exist and if yes where can it be found? Presumably this would predate the dissolution of monasteries in england. Thanks.70.67.193.176 (talk) 06:49, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Are the proposed Trump tariffs a regressive tax in disguise?

I'm wondering if there has been analysis of this. The US government gets the tariff money(?) and biggest chunk will be on manufactured goods from China. Those in turn are primarily consumer goods, which means that the tariff is something like a sales tax, a type of tax well known to be regressive. Obviously there are leaks in the description above, so one would have to crunch a bunch of numbers to find out for sure. But that's what economists do, right? Has anyone weighed in on this issue? Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:327E (talk) 08:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

There have been many public comments about how this is a tax on American consumers. It's only "in disguise" to those who don't understand how tariffs work. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:34, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll see what I can find. Do you remember if the revenue collected is supposed to be enough for the government to care about? I.e. enough to supposedly offset the inevitable tax cuts for people like Elon Musk? 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:327E (talk) 22:36, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Import duties are extremely recessive in that (a) they are charged at the same rate for any given level of income; and (b) those with less income tend to purchase far more imported goods than those with more income (define “more” and “less” any way you wish). Fiscally, they border on insignificant, running an average of 1.4% of federal revenue since 1962 (or, 0.2% of GDP), compared to 47.1% (8.0%) for individual income tax and 9.9% (1.7%) for corporate tax receipts.DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:52, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Curious about your point (b); why would this be? It seems to me that as my income has risen I have probably bought more stuff from abroad, at least directly. It could well be that I've bought less indirectly, but I'm not sure why that would be. --Trovatore (talk) 00:02, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

More like, those with less income spend a larger fraction of their income on imported goods, instead of services. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Ron A. Dunn: Australian arachnologist

For R. A. Dunn (Q109827858) I have given names of "Ron. A.", an address in 1958 of 60 Mimosa Road, Carnegie, Victoria, Australia S.E. 9 (he was also in Carnegie in 1948) and an uncited death date of 25 June 1972.

He was an Australian arachnologist with the honorifics AAA AAIS.

Can anyone find the full given names, and a source or the death date, please? What did the honorifics stand for? Do we know how he earned his living? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:54, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Pigsonthewing Have you tried ancestry.com? For a start

A scan of the 1954 Carnegie electoral roll has

• Dunn, Ronald Albert, 60 Mimosa Road, S.E. 9, accountant
• Dunn, Gladys Harriet I, 60 Mimosa Road, S.E. 9, home duties

I can't check newspapers.com, but The Age apparently had a report about Ronald Albert Dunn on 27 Jun 1972 TSventon (talk) 14:49, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't have access to the former, but that's great. AAA seems to be (member of the) Association of Accountants of Australia: [7]. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:18, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I accessed Ancestry.com via the Wikipedia Library, so you should have access. Newspapers.com is also available via the library if you register, which I haven't. An editor with a Newspapers.com account would be able to make a clipping which anyone could access online.

I agree AAA is probably the Australian Society of Accountants, a predecessor of CPA Australia. They merged in 1953 (source) so the information would have been outdated in 1958. AAIS could be Associate [of the] Amalgamated Institute of Secretaries (source Who's Who in Australia, Volume 16, 1959 Abbreviations page 9). TSventon (talk) 16:48, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Last time I tried, Ancestry wasn't working for WP-Lib users. Thank you again. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:50, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

There is a phabricator problem about loading a second page of results. My workaround is to try to add more information to the search to get more relevant results on the first page of results. TSventon (talk) 21:03, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Or perhaps someone at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request could help? Alansplodge (talk) 12:35, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

They already have at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request#The Age (Melbourne) 27 June 1972. TSventon (talk) 12:42, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

December 15

Schisms and Byzantine Roman self-perception

Did the three schisms between Rome and Constantinople tarnish Rome's reputation to the degree that it affected the Byzantine self-perception as the "Roman Empire" and as "Romans"? Including Constantinople's vision of succession to the Roman Empire and its notion of Second Rome. Brandmeister^talk 15:34, 15 December 2024 (UTC)