Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Language

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This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Language. It is one of many deletion lists coordinated by WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.

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Language

Mind your Ps and Qs

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dictionary definition of an English phrase with speculation about its etymology, cited to primary sources. wikt:mind one's ps and qs accomplishes what this is trying to do much better. and rightly so, for Wikipedia is not a dictionary. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 15:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

keep, cleanup. valid Wikipedia article. --Altenmann >talk 16:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
keep, there's nothing much wrong with the article, and it's certainly an encyclopedic topic. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. There is a grey area that's hard to sort between here and Wiktionary. The test is whether this is merely an (etymological) dictionary entry WP:DICT. My feeling is that where the social/historical interest in a phrase's origin outweighs the linguistic information about how it's used, it's possible to have a social/historically-biased encyclopedia entry. This doesn't preclude having a linguistically-biased dictionary entry in Wiktionary. It's not either/or. This particular phrase is interesting enough, and sufficiently sourced, to pass. Elemimele (talk) 17:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: The nominator's statement that the wiktionary page "accomplishes what this is trying to do much better" is incorrect. The Wikipedia article is much more in-depth. Toughpigs (talk) 18:39, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All singing, all dancing

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Fails GNG, lacks significant coverage. The article consists of a dictionary definition already better covered at wikt:all singing, all dancing, along with some trivia about shows on which the phrase has been mentioned. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete but without prejudice to its being recreated if someone finds more interesting sources for it. I am in favour of keeping at least some of these idiom-articles (currently we've got a whole load nominated) because in many cases the idioms have an interesting cultural history and are well-sourced, but this one is too thin and strays over the line into mere dictionary definition. Elemimele (talk) 17:28, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The quick and the dead

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The article consists of a dictionary definition, an etymology, and some mentions of its usage, pretty much all of which is original research. If there's any indication that this even counts as a standard phrase, it would do better as a Wiktionary entry. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 14:40, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

delete Original research --Altenmann >talk 16:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Language and Christianity. Shellwood (talk) 16:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as TNT of original research, but this is a potentially notable subject. The phrase gets a lot of coverage in research about the Book of Common Prayer and its language (eg [1]). I'm planning out an article called "Language in the Book of Common Prayer" (it will be largely framed by an OUP book of the same name by Stella Brook and OUP's Shakespeare's Common Prayers by Daniel Swift). This might be a good redirect to that article when the time comes. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, of all the idioms currently up for AfD, this one has a long history in English language culture. It's even got itself into philosophy of literature[2], as well as of course featuring in discussions such as [3] (a blog, but a blog by acknowledged experts, Patricia T. O'Conner and Stewart Kellerman). It goes way beyond dictionary-matter, and is socially significant enough to land firmly in an encyclopedia. If we're not careful, we'll have to bud out a sub-article list or disambig on usage of the phrase for books, academic articles, films, poems and music. Elemimele (talk) 17:39, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Taking the piss

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Wikipedia is not a dictionary. An entry at Wiktionary already exists. A previous AfD nomination with the same rationale closed as keep, but the arguments presented for keep there seem to be of the "I like it" variety. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 10:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Language, South Africa, Ireland, United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 11:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep: Agreed that WP shouldn't be a dictionary, but unlike Wolf in sheep's clothing above, this article at least does cite sources discussing the phrase and its origins and use, without the SYNTH. Could probably be trimmed down to a description and a few examples, though. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 12:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Whilst not a dictionary I believe this article has value beyond providing a definition for the phrase, including basic etymology and cultural significance across multiple countries. Current refs aren't exhaustive but provide a decent foundation to why this may meet notability standards.Triplefour (talk) 12:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Dictionaries also provide basic etymology and general information about usage, whether it's British, Irish, American, etc. That's what Wiktionary does. Some of the article is also OR. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 13:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep that article does look like an encyclopedic entry about the phrase as opposed to a dictionary definition. SportingFlyer T·C 18:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Out of the frying pan into the fire

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WP:NOTDICT. The article was deleted twice before, in 2006 and 2008 respectively, over the same concerns. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 11:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 11:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OPPOSE: The article is not "substantially the same" as earlier versions, as the proposer claimed in his original notice. It has been widened in scope to include fables based on the figure of speech, the original history of which is rightfully considered too on that account. Sweetpool50 (talk) 13:42, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, this is an encyclopedic subject supported by multiple reliable sources: more are certainly available. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- These "multiple reliable sources" are five different online dictionaries defining the term, and then some articles talking about mediaeval fables based on similar proverbs and idioms. None of it is significant coverage of the phrase, none of the content here is encyclopedic. Significant coverage has to be demonstrated, mere assertions to the contrary are not enough. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wolf in sheep's clothing

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Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The article consists of etymology better fitting for Wiktionary, loosely thrown together trivia about literature inspired by the phrase, and uses of the phrase to describe the phenomenon of zoological mimicry, which already has its article. None of it is encyclopaedic, all of it can be (and is) better mentioned elsewhere. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 11:24, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Language, Animal, and Christianity. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 11:44, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: I could be convinced to keep the article if it were retitled and trimmed down to focus on the "wolf in sheep's clothing" as a literary device, because I'm sure sources for that could be easily found (that part of the article is good). But as it stands the article is an inherently OR assembly of concepts with no evidence that they have all been linked together by an external source. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 11:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:DICDEF - simple as that. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 12:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I agree WP isn't a dictionary but this article has some encyclopedic value. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 12:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. It has encyclopedic value as it's a popular idiomatic expression and this is evident in the average number of article views per month at around eight thousand. It only needs working on to remodel it within the scope of its title. Mekomo (talk) 13:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The article is a consideration of a large body of literary fables inspired by the original figure of speech. Where I would agree is that the title is unfortunately titled, making the article appear to be focussed on the figure of speech. It might function better if it were rewritten under a composite title like, for example, The wolf in disguise. Sweetpool50 (talk) 13:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- This article is expressly about the phrase, and is titled correctly for that. A separate article on the literary trope might be viable, but this is not that article. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 14:22, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - okay, I see going back into the history, it was created as an article on the fable. The current pretty much says that the original is incorrect, and the fables aren't by Aesop, but are based on the phrase, not the other way around. The edits have also substantially altered the scope of the article. Would it make sense to change it again to be about the fables, or should a new article be created about the trope (a broader topic)? TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 14:30, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: This article has encyclopedic value as a widely recognized idiom with significant cultural, historical, and literary relevance. It originates from biblical and fable traditions, and this phrase has transcended its initial context to become a universal metaphor for deception and hidden malevolence. I suggest including more about the cultural and societal implications of this phrase. However, minor issues can be resolved without deleting the entire article. DocZach (talk) 13:54, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- wikt:wolf in sheep's clothing already records where it originates from; dictionaries also record etymological information. It's use (not origin!) in fable traditions is also akin to myriad art and literature that are often based on this or that phrase, collecting all that on one page on the phrase is essentially trivia. People often use phrases as metaphors, yes, that's what they are for. Collecting a bunch of sources *using* a phrase, without any *mentioning* it, or describing it in more detail than a dictionary definition is not enough for an encyclopaedia. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 14:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: the sources seem to be enough to pass WP:GNG. I would also argue that the article is encyclopedic, since as an idiom it warrants more coverage than a mere dictionary entry can provide.--DesiMoore (talk) 15:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you specify how exactly it meets GNG? Which sources contain significant coverage of this phrase? All I see are passing mentions, usage of the phrase, and dictionary definitions. regards, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 15:29, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - this is a major topic. It meets GNG the usual way, with multiple, independent, reliable sources. The zoology sources alone demonstrate its notability, but the article goes into much more depth than that on its literary side. It far exceeds a dictionary definition, to put it mildly. Nom argues in this thread that the article is (only) about the phrase, but that is not so: it is about the uses made of the phrase, an encyclopedic subject. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- The zoological sources are about aggressive mimicry. We already have that article. These sources use the phrase in question, *in passing*, to describe that phenomenon. Using that to cobble together an article on the "uses of the phrase" is pure synthesis and original research. We do not have any significant coverage—none has been demonstrated—evidence free assertions otherwise should be discarded. TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Not a WP:DICDEF. Meets WP:SIGCOV.4meter4 (talk) 16:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of online language tutoring platforms

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Does not appear to meet WP:NLIST. The one cited source discussing a group is about language learning apps in general, not "language tutoring platforms" specifically. – Joe (talk) 15:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Language, Products, and Lists. – Joe (talk) 15:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:54, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 17:37, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment there is a non-trivial difference between "language tutoring platforms" and "language learning apps" like Duolingo or Babbel, which are listed at List of language self-study programs. But there isn't sourcing to suggest that Wikipedia needs a separate lists. I'm not sure if I prefer some form of merge (or a redirect to a category), but it should not be kept as-is. Walsh90210 (talk) 18:09, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dobbert

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Delete - article has been unsourced since its inception. The sketchy source that I found earlier in November turns out to be cribbed from Marble (toy) anyway. My WP:BEFORE found no other mention of the word dobbert to mean a marble. So I do not think that this is sufficiently notable. N.B. https://archive.org/details/glossaryoflancas00nodauoft/page/106/mode/2up has dobber as does https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/dabber_n2, but not dobbert. SunloungerFrog (talk) 07:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Language, Games, and United Kingdom. SunloungerFrog (talk) 07:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
delete fails verification; I found the same as above. I also have to say that I don't think WP is the place for a glossary of regional British slang, and never mind the questionable "just-so" story of its origin. Mangoe (talk) 12:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MotaWord

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No indication of notability per WP:NCORP. All sources found are press releases or clearly unreliable, and additional searching on the topic found nothing that shows clear notability. Cutlass ^Ciera 00:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Fails WP:ORGCRIT. Not finding any significant independent coverage on this company. If anyone can, ping me.4meter4 (talk) 04:49, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Language, Companies, Websites, and New York. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
delete, no reliable independent sources to prove company's notability. James Tensky (talk) 09:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fails WP:NORG guidelines. Some of the sources are primary and the two that are academic work are not enough to pass notability. Mekomo (talk) 10:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Global Language Monitor

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"Company" identifies no product or marketable service, notes no clients, as of October 2024 has no recent web or social media presence, url is for sale. Sources are dead and unrecoverable. It does however seem to have been a prolific producer of press releases and had garnered some publicity. Just no evidence it has ever existed as a real company. Doprendek (talk) 16:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Companies and Texas. Shellwood (talk) 17:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Language and California. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep. I share the nominator's skepticism about the company's status as a company. However, claims attributed to this company have been reported frequently in the media. This in turn has triggered numerous debunkings in the linguistics blogosphere, as well as posts complaining more generally about the company's tendency towards misinformation. This isn't quite the gold standard of SIGCOV, but it's in the ballpark. Additionally, I think there's an IAR argument to be made in favour of keeping, namely that the article (if well-maintained) could help journalists vet their sources. Botterweg (talk) 22:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete it is a defunct website that Language Log didn't like 15 years ago. Is there any more to be said? Older versions of this article have excessively-long wordlists from their website added by promotional editing, but nothing interesting about the company. Just because it is cited more than twice doesn't mean it meets GNG. Walsh90210 (talk) 19:07, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not going to support keeping this just because non-US sources mistakenly believed it to be something it was not; but I acknowledge that if there are enough of those sources there will not be consensus to delete. Walsh90210 (talk) 18:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, asilvering (talk) 16:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Several analysis of this company in Gscholar, [4], [5] were the first two that came up. They seem like RS, in Russian I think. Oaktree b (talk) 17:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Some book mentions of their world language clock [6]. Sounds interesting, too bad it's not around anymore. Oaktree b (talk) 22:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a promotional book written by the company's CEO, so it's not an independent source. Botterweg (talk) 23:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When you combine it with the other sources, it helps give context. The first two in my first comment are fine. Oaktree b (talk) 20:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The choices here are between the derision of American linguists (some of whom I know to have bona fides) and the praise of folks publishing in "European Publisher", where the remainder of that site has some dubious grammar and has all of the hallmarks of a non-serious enterprise. For example, on the EP web site one of the subjects they claim to publish in is Education, but when you click on Education you are told there are no publications. Various other links also open blank pages. The claim is that EP is based in the UK - all of the editors, staff, and any authors I saw are Russian. Sorry to bang on about this, but I'm guessing "predatory publication." Lamona (talk) 06:49, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prodded articles