User talk:Sallese

May 2010

Hello, Sallese, and Welcome to Wikipedia! Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or or by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Snowded TALK 22:26, 2 May 2010 (UTC) Getting started Introduction The five pillars of Wikipedia How to edit a page Intuitive guide to Wikipedia Finding your way around Table of contents Department directory Editing articles How to develop an article Manual of Style Getting help Frequently asked questions Cheatsheet Where to ask a question Help pages New contributors' help page Article Wizard - a Wizard to help you create articles How you can help Contributing to Wikipedia Community Portal Follow Wikipedia etiquette Practice civility

Just realised you are a new editor - hope the above helps --Snowded ^TALK 22:26, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your understanding, please, when you get a chance, see the content above and how it can satisfy some "consensus." Sallese (talk) 11:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Al-Muthanna club

Hello Sallese - I came across the article you created on the Al-Muthanna club when doing some New Page Patrol and am concerned about copyright issues in this article. As you may know, Wikipedia operates under a principle that means we can't use material, including text, which is copyrighted by others unless we have the copyright owner's permission. While having a look at the online sources you used for this article, I notice you have directly copied from them in the article. For example:

...existed until the collapse of Rashid Rashid Ali al-Gaylani's coup d'etat in May 1941. The club was dedicated to the spread of pan-Arabism; its ideas were influential at the time and many of its members participated in Iraqi politics after 1945, notably in hizb al-istiqlal.

is directly lifted from Arabic political memoirs and other studies by Elie Kédourie

heavily influenced by European fascism, they formed the core of new radicals for a civilian-military Pan-Arab coalition

from Memories of state: politics, history, and collective identity in modern Iraq by Eric Davis

pan-Arab identity and animosity woward a "colonial" Britain. A central figure in introducing these ideas into Iraq's national education program was Dr. Sami Shawkat [sic]

Iran, Iraq, and the Arab Gulf States by Joseph A. Kechichian

...Dr. Sami Shawkat, the ardent Arab nationalist and cofounder of the al-Muthanna Club

The Arabs and the Axis: 1933-1940

Saib Shawkat, who served as director-general of education (1931-33, 1939; 1940) and minister of education (1940). Shawkat is well known for, among other things, his 1933 speech "The Manufacture of Death," in which he argued that the ability to cause and accept death in puruit of pan-Arab ideals was the highest calling....In 1939, he instituted Al-Futuwwa, a paramilitary youth organization named after a social organization of the Abbasid caliph al-Nasir al-din Allah. Shawkat's promotion of a nationalist education system and vanguard youth organization foreshadowed the Popular Army and youth organizations of the Baath Party four decades later.

Iran, Iraq, and the Arab Gulf States (You copy the final sentence of this section again at the end of the article)

...Al Muthanna Club in Baghdad and the Scouts movement propagated anti-Jewish propaganda

Is it just for Arabs and Muslims to deny the Holocaust?

...a mob led by al-Muthanna Club members and its youth organization attacked the Baghdad Jewish community on June 1 and 2, 1941 (Farhud Pogrom), killing and wounding several Jews and destroying considerable property

Memories of state

I am concerned that reading the offline sources you used will produce similar results. Simply mentioning the source you used is not sufficient - copying or close paraphrasing is not permitted on Wikipedia. What I have done is to replace the article for the moment with a template noting the copyright problem. I will also post a message on the article's talk page. I suspect, that for the moment, the most straightforward thing to do will be to reduce the article to a stub, which can then be built back up, using the sources but not copying them. You may also want to look at the section of your talk page above, which I notice says "Note, Much of the following information was complied by others.". Copyright violations are not allowed on user talk pages either. --Kateshortforbob _talk 14:01, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Sallese, I have just looked at one of your edits to Fascism, chosen at random (and again here), and I notice you are doing the same thing - copying copyrighted text from Google Books. While Google Books may provide previews of books, or even complete texts, they are not neccessarily in the public domain, or released under a license which allows us to copy them. Please avoid this in future. Kateshortforbob _talk 14:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Copyright block

You have been temporarily blocked from editing in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for violating copyright policy by copying text into Wikipedia from another source without verifying permission. You have been previously warned that this is against policy. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. Please take this opportunity to be sure you understand our copyright policy and our policies regarding how to quote non-free text. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|Your reason here}} below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:08, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

In spite of the very clear explanation above, you restored content to the now deleted article Al-Muthanna club with a note that it was "non-copyrighted". Among this was text pasted from [6] and [7]. You must understand and respect our copyright policy if you wish to contribute to Wikipedia. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:08, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The compilation previously at the top of your talk page has been removed, as it seems also to have contained copyrighted content used in a manner inconsistent with our copyright policies, including from [8]. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:13, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Sallese (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

I didn't make any "copyrighted" materuial AFTER been warned, on the contrary, I have repaired the page Al-Muthanna_club to be non-copy-righted by omitting the orioginal text, but you have just deleted that page. Sallese (talk) 03:28, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Decline reason:

See below. The material was copyrighted, and you have been advised about it previously. If you file another unblock request, it would be wise to demonstrate that you have read the policies linked below, to show that you now understand your error. Taelus (Talk) 15:00, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

---

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Your "repairs" to the page merely seemed to rephrase parts of it slightly, and change the order of the sentance structure in places. This would however still be plagiarism, although assuming good faith you may not have been aware of this. You are not allowed to take anothers work and slightly change its layout or phrasing in order to ensure it is different. You are however allowed to use anothers work for research, and then write up an article about the topic in your own words, citing the source for information you gained from it. --Taelus (Talk) 09:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Taking one of the examples I linked, before blanking, the article said:

Nadi al-Muthanna and other secret societies disseminated and promoted Arab nationalist views in an attempt to mobilize public opinion in support of their ideas. The club gained a great deal of influence as its ideas began to spread in government schools. Led by Saib Shawkat and Muhammad Mahdi al-Kubba, it came to be dominated by ultranationalists. The emergence of the club reflected the rise of Arab nationalist activities in the wake of the 1936 Bakr Sidqi coup. Many Arab nationalists and reformers who had supported the coup became disenchanted with Bakr Sidqi's authoritarian and arbitrary policies. The club's members joined followers of pro-Nazi leader

When you restored it, it said:

Nadi al-Muthanna like other secret societies disseminated and promoted Arab nationalist views in an attempt to mobilize public opinion in support of their ideas. The club gained a great deal of influence as its ideas began to spread in government schools. Led by Saib Shawkat and Muhammad Mahdi al-Kubba,. The emergence of the club reflected the rise of Arab nationalist activities in the wake of the 1936 Bakr Sidqi coup Many Arab nationalists and reformers who had supported the coup became disenchanted with Bakr Sidqi's authoritarian and arbitrary policies. The club's members joined followers of pro-Nazi leader.

To make it easier to see the similarity of these passages, I have bolded in the second example the language that is identical. You have changed the word "and" to the word "like" and dropped a fragment of the third sentence. Otherwise, the passage is identical. This is a clear infringement of the source. We cannot use or closely paraphrase this text without permission of the author; you were advised of this above. It is necessary if you wish to contribute to Wikipedia that you do so in accordance with our copyright policy. This requires completely rewriting copyrighted content, unless you use brief and clearly marked quotations. As I said above, you should review our copyright policy andthe guidelines for using non-free text. You were already advised before you restored the content of Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing, which may also help you. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

---

Al-Muthanna club (version: June 2010)

Nadi al-Muthanna, al-Muthanna Club, A radical fascist - oriented pan-Arab & pan-Islamic society, heavily influenced by European fascism, was established in Baghdad in 1935, it was dominated by Arab nationalists pushing for pan-Arabism. Later on it was renamed the National Democratic Party. , it is believed to be existed from about 1937 to the collapse of pro-Nazi Rashid_Ali_al-Gaylani's coup d'etat in May 1941. The club was dedicated to the spread of pan-Arabism, its ideas were influencial at the time. The al-Muthanna Club members formed the core of new radicals for a civilian-military Pan-Arab coalition.

Saib Shawkat

In 1938, the ardent Arab nationalist, Sami Shawkat, who was a known fascist, was appointed director-general of education, an author calls it "the sign of the times."

The al-Muthanna club, under German ambassador Fritz Grobba's influence, developed a youth organization, the al-Futuwwa, modeled on European fascist lines and on Hitler Youth , it was founded in 1939 by then director-general of Iraq's education (al-Muthanna's co-founder) pan-Arab activist SaibShawkat, and was and under his guidance.

He's famous as well for his 1933 speech "The Manufacture of Death," in which he preached for the highest calling of acceptong death for the pan-Arabism cause, he argued that the ability to cause and accept death in puruit of pan-Arab ideals was the highest callin. it has been said, that Shawkat's path (ideology and military youth movement), influenced the Popular Army and youth organizations of the Baath Party, which appeared much later on.

Shawkat, al-Sab'awi had developed strong anti-Jewish sentiments, leading to the tragedy known in colloquial Iraqi Arabic as the Farhud (Pogrom), as a result, a mob led by al-Muthanna Club members and its youth organization attacked the Jewish community of Baghdad on June 1 and 2, 1941, killing and wounding many Jews.

Sallese (talk) 02:41, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi. While it's a good start, I'm afraid that this continues to have some copyright issues. For example, the following text:

...existed from about 1937 to the collapse of pro-Nazi Rashid_Ali_al-Gaylani's coup d'etat in May 1941. The club was dedicated to the spread of pan-Arabism, its ideas were influencial at the time.

This source says:

...existed from about 1937 to the collapse of Rashid_Ali_al-Gaylani coup d'etat in May 1941. The Club was dedicated to the spread of pan-Arabism; its ideas were influential at the time.

The al-Muthanna Club members formed the core of new radicals for a civilian-military Pan-Arab coalition

This source says:

members...formed the core of new radicals for the civilian-military Pan-Arab coalition...

You cannot copy sentences or even substantial fragments of sentences from other sources unless you are clearly marking the content as copied with quotation marks. Even then, you have to have good reason to copy it (some suggested are at WP:NFC). If you can put it in your own words, you should. This is really a whole lot easier to do when you take facts from various sources and blend them into new text.

Taking the whole of the first paragraph, let me give you an example of how you might rewrite this text:

Nadi al-Muthanna (in English al-Muthanna Club) was an influential radical pan-Arab & pan-Islamic society established in Baghdad ca. 1935 to 1937 which remained active until May 1941, when the coup d'etat of pro-Nazi Rashid_Ali_al-Gaylani failed. Later known as the National Democratic Party, Nadi al-Muthanna was influenced by European fascism and controlled by radical Arab nationalists who, according to 2005's Memories of State, "formed the core of new radicals" for a combined Pan-Arab civilian and military coalition.

While generally you are required to credit Wikipedia's contributors when you use their text (since it is not public domain), you would be welcome to use any of these suggestions without credit, if you find them helpful.

Beyond the first paragraph, the content seems to be okay, except the sentence "In 1938, the ardent Arab nationalist, Sami Shawkat, who was a known fascist, was appointed director-general of education, an author calls it "the sign of the times."" This seems to be less a rewriting than a rearrangement of Miller. (The source says, "It was a sign of the times in 1938 when an ardent Arab nationalist, Sami Shawkat, was appointed director-general of education. Shawkat was a fascist who admired Mussolini.") I'd be happy to try to help you find new language for that, but I'm not quite sure how it fits with the content above.

I realize that rewriting completely can seem a strange concept to those not familiar with the specifics of U.S. copyright law (which includes plenty of people raised in the U.S. as well as those living elsewhere), but I'm afraid that as the Wikimedia Foundation is based in the United States, it is the U.S. concept of copyright that governs us. While facts are not copyrightable, creative elements of presentation - including both structure and language - are. In addition to Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing, the article Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches - while about plagiarism rather than copyright concerns - also contains some suggestions for reusing material from sources that may be helpful, beginning under "Avoiding plagiarism".

Please let me know if you have any questions about this. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:42, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi. You would not revive the article, but create a new one in the same space. You are welcome to do so, but please either rewrite the sentence that starts "In 1938, the ardent Arab nationalist...." or remove it. Otherwise, the content should be fine from a copyright perspective. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:59, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi there, Thank you again, I am sorry that I am asking such a blunt question, what does "in the same space" mean? is that page revive-able? al-Muthanna club? or if I try to re-edit it? if not, Shall (May) I be inserting the material into al-Muthanna page under a separate section?Sallese (talk) 17:14, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Bluntness is fine in the interest of clarity. "In the same space" means under the same title. You can create a new article under the same title; we just can't restore the old one because of the copyright problems. We do not seem to have an article at al-Muthanna, so there should be no problem with your putting it under that title if you prefer. If somebody thinks it is mistitled, they are likely to move it, but that can easily be discussed when it comes up. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:15, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I was referring to Al_Muthanna_Governorate and "my section" would be under section: al_Muthanna_club.

In any case, I just re-created it, accordance to your tips/help. Al-Muthanna_club, thanks again.Sallese (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your willingness to address these concerns. :) You are welcome to come by my talk page any time you think I may be of assistance. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks 'also' for helping me to feel-good about myself, as I wouldn't want to infringe rights anyhow, as a principle, regardless of wikipedia's rules.Sallese (talk) 20:25, 29 June 2010 (UTC)