Talk:Turks in Europe

Things to do

We should probably add the following:

• History: Ottoman era, Modern era
• Demographics
• Culture: Religion, Language(s)
• Integration: Discrimination, Naturalisation
• Economy: Guest workers, Businesses
• Politics

Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 15:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Map of Turks in Europe

I have no objection to having a map. But it must be accurate first.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

History of Turks in Europe

Why is ther no mention of the Avars, Bulgars, Khazars, Huns and other Turkish peoples that moved into Europe many years before the Ottoman Turks? The first Turks came to Europe from the 4th to the 6th century. Eventualy some of these peoples were slavized, but many others joined the Ottoman Empire as it grew into Europe. Many of these peoples migrated to the Ottoman Empire during the Balkan, Crimean and Caucasus wars. A huge proportion of Turks in Turkey are descendants of these refugees. The new Turkish republic was built by many diffrent Turkish peoples, not just the Ottomans. The history of Turks in Europe started 1600 years ago and has continued to this day without interference. 82.171.81.187 (talk) 14:38, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Turkish mosques in Europe

See also: List of Turkish mosques in Europe

Name	Images	Country	City	Year	Remarks
Islamisches Kulturzentrum Bad Vöslau		Austria	Lower Austria	2009
Emperor's Mosque		Bosnia and Herzegovina	Sarajevo	1462/1566
Yunus Emre Mosque		Belgium	Genk
Banya Bashi Mosque		Bulgaria	Sofia	1576
Hala Sultan Tekke		Cyprus	Larnaca	1816/17
Şehitlik Mosque		Germany	Berlin	1866
Aslan Pasha Mosque		Greece	Ioannina
Gázi Kászim Pasa Mosque		Hungary	Pécs
Mosque of Muderis Ali Efendi		Kosovo	Prizren	1581
Mustapha Pasha Mosque		Republic of Macedonia	Skopje	1492
Mevlana Mosque		Netherlands	Rotterdam
Bayraklı Mosque		Serbia	Belgrade	1575
Fittja Mosque		Sweden	Stockholm
Olten Mosque		Switzerland	Solothurn
Sultan Suleiman Mosque		Ukraine	Mariupol
Suleymaniye Mosque (London)		United Kingdom	London	1999

Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 12:03, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Turks in Bulgaria

It will be a good thing to have reliable source for the claim that the Turks in Bulgaria are a million and even more. Based on the Bulgarian National Census from 2001 the Turks in Bulgaria are 746,664 see here [1] Also, see Turks in Bulgaria, where the number is also the same. Moreover, in Islam in Bulgaria the number of all Muslims in the country is around 968,000, but not every Bulgarian Muslim is from Turkish ethnicity. Therefore, it will be important to have more reliable source on this issue. Thanks.

Stoichkov8 (talk) 20:21, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Although I understand your argument, we must remember that the census was done in 2001 which is 10 years ago. Lets not forget that since Bulgaria joined the EU many Bulgarian Turks who lived in Turkey have now migrated back to Bulgaria. Furthermore, not all Turks consider themselves Muslims so I don’t think your argument is valid about Islam in Bulgaria. I personally don’t mind having the census figure as a footnote (although as you said this can already be seen in the main article) but using a 10 year old source for the population of today’s Turks in Bulgaria is ludicrous. Lets also not forget that since the 2001 census Bulgaria’s entire demographics has changed... although the ethnic Bulgarian population is decreasing the Turkish is not.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 11:21, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Ethnic turks in Bulgaria are less then a 500 000 persons. Even worst. That some gypsies musulmans selfidentificated as a turks, that not make them turks for no one in Bulgaria, specialy for the ethnic turks.

{{Original research}}

This article includes many kind of groups that have no relationship with each otehr directly.

For example the people who live in Eastern Thrace isnt considered as Avrupa Türkleri. Takabeg (talk) 02:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Eastern Thrace is in EUROPE... thus these are Turks in Europe. This article is about Turks living in the European continent. Furthermore, given the fact that a country such as Cyprus (which is entirely in Asia) is in this article I see no reason why Eastern Thrace Turks shouldn’t be here as well.Turco85 (Talk) 15:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

POV

Turkish citizen and ethnic Turkish are different. But in this article the Turkish citizens are shown as the ethnic Turkish.

Turkish citizen (Türk vatandaşı, Yurtdışında Yaşayan Türk Vatandaşları) is the citizen of the Republic of Turkey and includes many kind of ethnic groups, Kurdish, Zaza, Laz and son on. And this group doesn't include some ethnic Turkish group who doesn't have Turkish citizenship. We can use numbers in this list for Turkish citizen (Türk vatandaşı). But these number are invalid for Turkish People (Türkiye Türkleri).

Turkish people (Türkiye Türkleri) is one of the ethnic groups of Turkic people. For example, about 55 million Turkish people live in Turkey.

In this article will we write about which one ? Now there are serious problems in this article. We have to solve them. Thank you.

Takabeg (talk) 09:05, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Takabeg, I have realised that in the Turkish wikipedia you seem to try and seperate the Turkish ethnic group by creating your own word 'Turkey Turks'. Turks refers to all Turkish people whether they were born in Turkey, Cyprus, Bulgaria or Greece. Sorry to seem so rude but you are the one who needs to solve your problems and stop trying to seperate the Turkish ethnic group. The only thing I agree with you is that a Turkish citizen does not have to be a Turk... but this article is not about Turkish citizens, it is about Turks.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 16:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

What ? It's not my own word.

• "Turks in Turkey" -Llc 1,890 results
• "Türkiye Türkleri" -Llc 573 results

Tamam ? Takabeg (talk) 11:57, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

"Turks" vs "Turkish people"

I realize that "Turk" is very close to "Turkish" in Turkish, but in English it it a little misleading, as I was rather expecting that it should relate to all Turkic people. I know it can be used as both (Turkish and Turkic), but "Turkish people" is way more informative, IMO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Petar Petrov Donchev (talk • contribs) 17:58, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that is why this article only includes Turkish people (as in guestworkers and Turkish minorities from the Ottoman Empire). Turco85 (Talk) 14:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Haven't reviewed for a while :) I don't really get it - it should be then named "Turkish people in Europe" (because it is about Turkish people as guestworkers and Turkish minorities from the Ottoman Empire) and not "Turks in Europe" (because it is not about Turks in Europe). Again, coincidence in orthography does not change the norms the English language. Petar Petrov Donchev (talk) 21:39, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Turks in Europe?

Turks are already in Europe. Its funny categorizing some Turks being in Europe. Why isnt there any article about other Europeans like this? like Russians in Europe...? lol

And the European part of Turkey (Thrace)... it is funny too indeed. are there articles about population of European Russia too? no cos you will say russians are already european. lol --88.226.254.200 (talk) 16:19, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Since countries like Cyprus, Azerbaijan, and Russia are in the table I have included Turkey as well. There are a few other articles like this, see for example Armenians in Europe, Jews in Europe, Arabs in Europe. Furthermore, there is a lot of academic studies on Turks living in Europe, probably more so than any other ethnic group.Turco85 (Talk) 11:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

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numbers wildly inflated

someone has been playing funny games here. 50,000 Turks in Bosnia? lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbdolRezaCCIH (talk • contribs) 02:19, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I Do not see why you are "lol"ing for, that's what the source actually says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.189.172 (talk) 22:31, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's obviously wrong, isn't it? The online "source" - "actually says" - 50,000 people in Bosnia-Hercegovina speak Turkish, not are Turkish. AbdolRezaCCIH (talk) 19:54, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

That's your opinion. Other sources also say 50,000 Turks in Bosnia:

• "Today Turkish/Muslim populations residing in the former European Turkey approximately amounts to 1.3 million, with roughly 50,000 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, 50,000 in Kosovo, 55,000 in Romania, 150,000 in Greece, 200,000 in the Republic of Macedonia, 750,000 in Bulgaria, and the rest living in various Balkan countries. This estimate does not include those citizens of Turkey who work and reside in the Balkans as businesspersons, workers, and students, as well as husbands and wives" (Cole 2011: 367-369).
• Worldmap.org also states 50,000[2]

And just because you don't agree with something, it does not mean you have to delete everything I have written in the last 3 days!

they're bad sources. they contradict teh offical census. stop fighting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbdolRezaCCIH (talk • contribs) 02:05, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, that's your POINT OF VIEW. We are only concerned with facts here, not opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.189.172 (talk) 07:22, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, facts are from the official census. You've just pasted figures from random websites. They are not facts. AbdolRezaCCIH (talk) 19:54, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

That census was over 20 years ago, and census do not count all people...some citizens choose not to state their ethnicity and simply tick "other" than there are those who just tick their citizenship. Census' are not 100% accurate, and a 20 year old census surely does not represent today's population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OzofAvrupa (talk • contribs) 22:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Then find a reliable source that states what you are claiming above. AbdolRezaCCIH (talk) 22:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Cole 2011 states it! Are you mentally ill or something? that's not a random website, it's a published academic source! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.189.172 (talk) 23:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Cole states the "Turkish/Muslim" population in Bosnia is 50,000 - not the ethnic Turk population. And the "Turkish/Muslim" term shows just how bad of a source that is anyway. AbdolRezaCCIH (talk) 01:10, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you for real? The title of that chapter is called "Turks"! Clearly the statistics are about Turks and not all Muslims. In some countries, such as Greece, the Turkish minority is referred to as a Muslim minority not a Turkish one, that's why it says Turkish/Muslim. According to the BBC in 2005 Bosnia had 1.5 million (40%) Muslims, Macedonia had 630,000 (30%), Serbia and Montenegro - 405,000 (5%); Kosovo - about 1.8 million (90%).http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4385768.stm So it's so obvious that when they say Turkish/Muslim they are not talking about all Muslims! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.189.172 (talk) 12:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Other groups

How wide is the definition of Turks ? Does it include other Turkic speaking groups such as Gagauz people and Crimean Tatars ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 15:29, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your message Nedim. No it would not go that wide. Although Crimean Tatars are Turkic, they do not come under the term "Turks", they would be under the term "Tatars" (or Tatars in Europe if such an article were to exist here). As for the Gagauz, they are a closer Turkic group to today's modern Turkish ethnicity, but again they would not come under the heading "Turks" either. Today's Balkan Turks are the descendents of Ottoman migration, though earlier migration of the Yoruk's is also valid.OzofAvrupa (talk) 15:48, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Tatar and Turk are synonymous within European literature. This page is not at all clear about its terminology. What does indeed constitute a Turk? What does Ottoman history have to do with modern Turks? What makes Tatars distinct from other Turks in eastern Europe? Did they not, just as the Turks in the Balkans once serve the Ottoman state? Indeed I question how this entire article revolves around some twisted sence of Ottoman Turkism. My mention of Ottoman traders (Jews, Greeks, ... AND Turks) in western European trading capitals like London, Antwerp and Amsterdam in de 16th century was removed without any good reason. Why should an article about Turks in Europe not include a history of pre-Ottoman Turks in Europe??NeoRetro (talk) 18:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

• The names Turk and Tatar are related , but not identical. According to modern definition, both are branches of Turkic peoples. Turks of Turkey are included in south western group along with Azerbaijanins, Turkmens of Turkmenistan and Gagauz. Tatars on the other are included in the northwestern group along with many others like Kazakhs, Bashkirs, Kyrgyzes etc. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 20:42, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree, the Tatars are not from the same branch. However, I do not object to showing more info on Turkic migration prior to the Ottomans, as long as we make it clear on who they were and what their descendants are today.Turco85 (Talk) 16:47, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

recent edit warring

Is the recent edit warring solely based on the population of Turks in Bosnia and Herzegovina? or is it the table in the Balkans Turks sub-heading that is the problem? Clearly the discussion above is about Bosnian Turks, but within the edit war, a lot of information and images are being removed.Turco85 (Talk) 13:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Recent edit conflict

The source provided by the anon see here states the following:

"Dr. Erdoğan explained how Turks began emigrating in the 1960s after Western European countries, which were in need of additional work force for their growing economies, signed labor agreements with Turkey. Now, being in the third generation, five million people of Turkish origin live in the European Union."

This clearly is a figure regarding emigration to EU from Turkey only. There are many Turkish people in Europe who have emigrated from other countries too - Turkish Cypriots to the UK (1920s onwards), Meskhetian Turks to Eastern Europe (1940s onwards), and more recently Bulgarian Turks to Western Europe - thus this is not a representative figure of "Turks in Europe" but rather "people from Turkey in Europe".

A final point, the source is mentioning Turkish emigration to the European Union not Europe, there is a difference.Turco85 (Talk) 14:57, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Erdoğan clearly states "five million people of Turkish origin in Europe", not people from Turkey. You can interpret a thousand ways, it is nowhere said that it includes only Turkish citizens or people with origins only from Turkey. And at least has a link, the other estimates for 9 and 10 million can't be checked. It is said that there Germany is home of 3 of the 5 million people of Turkish origin in Europe and do you mean that you interpret that these are only people from Turkey? Turkish citizens in Germany are less than 3 million - check that. I know that one of the sources estiamting up to 4 million Turks in the European Union estimates only the migrants from Turkey, but according to the other there are "3.7 million ethnic Turks in the European Union", please check it. Ethnic Turks is about all Turks outside of Turkey, not only Turkish citizens, capeesh?Ugud (talk) 15:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I have quoted the source that you have provided above, I have even specifically placed in bold that the figure of 5 million is in regards to Turks in the EU per the labor agreements of the 1960s - hence this does not include Turkish Cypriots to the UK or the Meskhetian Turks to Eastern Europe because they were not part of these labor agreements. Furthermore, the EU estimates would not include the recent Turkish migration to Norway, Liechtenstein Russia, Switzerland or Ukraine, nor would it include the Turkish minorities in Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro or Serbia because none of these countries are a part of the European Union. Why do you say that the 9 million and 10 million cannot be checked? The sources are in the footnotes... Please also reread the second paragraph of the source/link that you have provided.Turco85 (Talk) 15:54, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Erdoğan's source clearly states 5 million people of "Turkish origin in Europe" which I quoted and does not claim to exclude these kinds of Turks you have mentioned. How did you conclude that the estimate does not include Turkish Cypriots to the UK or the Meskhetian Turks as this is not mentioned? Furthermore, there are not 3 million people Turkish citizens in Germany, have you checked it? The claim is for people of Turkish origin , not Turkish citizens or Turkish nationals. This makes your interpretation that the estimate focuses only on people from Turkey arbitrary and unverified. So, as long as you don't have proper reason, please do not remove sourced content because of such imaginary interpretations. Ugud (talk) 16:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

As I have already mentioned, the source you have provided states: "Turks began emigrating in the 1960s after Western European countries, which were in need of additional work force for their growing economies, signed labor agreements with Turkey." This is clearly about emigration from Turkey only; it states nothing about Balkan Turks, Meskhetian Turks, or Turkish Cypriots.Turco85 (Talk) 16:25, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

As I suspected, that it is only about emigrants from Turkey is your opinion, nowhere mentioned in the source. Your suspicions have so far been unconvincing. The source does not need to mention Turkish Cypriots to include them in the estimate, but it needs to say that it includes only people form Turkey to be interpreted as what you say. You need to provide statement in which the source says that this is about emigration from Turkey only. So far, the only statement the source makes to say for which populations the estimate is about, has been "Germany is home to more than three million of the five million people of Turkish origin in Europe. ". Firstly, the definition people of Turkish origin is clearly not only for people from Turkey, secondly conventional wisdom(what you use to interpret), not well defined statements in the sources, leads to the conclusion that 3 million people in Germany must include people from outside of Turkey. You still leave your removal of the estimate of 3.7 million ethnic Turks in the European Union completely unjustified. Ugud (talk) 16:54, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Turkish people have been living in Europe for much longer than the 1960s, the labour agreement with EU countries and Turkey was for Turkish citizens only. You clearly do not know much about Balkan Turks, Meskhetian Turks, or Turkish Cypriots because if you did you would understand that Turks have been living in Europe for much longer than the 1960s. And yes, a source must state what the figures represent, and this source is clear that it is about the descendants of the "guest worker" programs of the 1960s... you should really reread the source that you have insisted only using. It is about immigrants and their descendants from the 1960s onwards from the labour agreements with Turkey only. For your final point, as I have already said, this article is not about "Turks in the EU" it is about "Turks in Europe".Turco85 (Talk) 17:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The article is also about Turks in Europe, not about Turks in Europe outside Turkey.Ugud (talk) 18:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Cole (2011) see here states the following "Overall, in the larger geography of Europe, the total population of Turks, excluding the Republic of Turkey, approximately amounts to 9 million".

You have broken Wikipedia's 3 revert rule on numerous occasions. Please place the article back to the previous version otherwise I will take this further and report you.Turco85 (Talk) 18:57, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Recent number play

Turco85, please explain your recent edits. I am sure there is no need for that number play, but anyway - explain.

See above.Turco85 (Talk) 15:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Turks in Macedonia!

There is no 200 000 turks in R.Macedonia. This is absurde. The real number is 4 times less! Use accurate numbers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.237.139.231 (talk) 15:49, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Map of Turks in the Balkans

Hi everyone! I'm envisaging the creation of a map depicting the actual and historic presence of Turks in the Balkans. But I need to know which source I could use to draw the map. If you have any sources, please link them here below. N.Hoxha (talk) 18:41, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

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