Talk:South Georgia

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Islands

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Requested move 12 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:45, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

– The island is the apparent primary topic for "South Georgia" and I'm not quite sure how we ended up with the dab page at the base title. Yes, it's almost uninhabited, but it's the major landform in the southern Atlantic, historically important as a whaling base and for events such as Shackleton's Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition or Argentine invasion during the Falkland war. No such user (talk) 10:44, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The items on the dab page are all WP:PTM: they include South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, the parent overseas territory, which is only casually referred to as "South Georgia"; and South Georgia State College, again only casually referred to as "South Georgia"; southern parts of either the U.S. state or the Caucasian country are "not a thing" that could plausibly have an article. I think it's quite a stretch of a dab page. The title of South Georgia (island) now has caused the whole cascade of unwieldy category renaming discussions that started with Category:Islands_of_South_Georgia_(island) and continue with Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_August_11#Geography_of_South_Georgia_(island). I believe the proposed setup is much clearer and that current one only increases readers' confusion and leads to awkward naming. No such user (talk) 10:44, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support I don't see any reason to oppose this proposed change. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 11:08, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support Per nom, clear wp:primarytopic —blindlynx (talk) 16:36, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support for move of this page to South Georgia. My view is that the dab page serves no useful purpose at all and should disappear, but the proposed move to South Georgia (disambiguation) is better than nothing. Kahastok talk 16:49, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Worth pointing out the history of this dab. The dab was created because the 2017 RM decided that South Georgia was ambiguous. As others have noted, the island is clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, just as South Shetland Islands and South Africa and East Germany and North America and North Sea and so on are all primary topics for those terms. But that was the decision at the time. And the dab was created to retrospectively justify that decision. If South Georgia was ambiguous, then it had to be ambiguous with something, and the occasional informal references to South Georgia State College were the best they could come up with. Kahastok talk 17:11, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support Weakly because coverage of "South Georgia" referring to the southern part of either the U.S. state or the country does exist (a Google news search for "South Georgia" brings up a ton in just the last few weeks), but arguably not to the extent that it would justify an article on the region or override the points made in the nomination. I'd say keeping the DAB page rather than deleting it would still be helpful here just to not have too many hatnotes though.--Yaksar (let's chat) 17:53, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. No other article would be titled South Georgia. Although ideally this article should be merged into the more informative South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, if anything is not duplicative of what's already there. The dab page can safely be deleted, but it doesn't hurt anything if it stays. Station1 (talk) 18:18, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This article was actually split from South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands (SG&SSI) first time in 2013, and after some back-and-forth finally in 2017 [1]. The overseas territory of SG&SSI was only formed in 1985 by splitting from Falkland Islands. Thus, in my opinion SG&SSI should not "claim" all the scope; for example, History of South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands is a misnomer, since 95% of its scope is actually History of South Georgia, and it does not make much sense to speak about SG&SSI in the 17th century. But let's fix one historical injustice at a time, by moving this island to the proper title first. :) No such user (talk) 18:50, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am also concerned about the content being split between two articles and agree with you about the content "claims". — AjaxSmack 19:20, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support It is a primary subject of interest and while the two Georgias have southern parts, there is no entity other than the island actually called 'South Georgia'.Hogweard (talk) 23:14, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hold on. If the term "South Georgia" is used to refer to the whole territorial unit, not just the island, then even if it's a casual use it makes the case for a move much less obvious. Reader behaviour also seems to suggest the absence of a primary topic: neither of these two main entries on the dab page receive overwhelmingly more clicks that the other. The clickstream figures for March are 121 (for the island) vs. 197 (for the territory), for January 2019: 265 (island) vs. 107 (territory). – Uanfala (talk) 16:28, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If we accept this logic, it seems to me that the move is still the correct course of action. Insofar as we need to distinguish the island from the territory, WP:NCDAB tells us to prefer natural disambiguation (i.e. South Georgia vs. South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands) over the current parenthetical disambiguation. Everything else can be perfectly well handled with a hatnote pointing at Georgia. Kahastok talk 18:09, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
How the title is going to be disambiguated is a separate question to whether there is a primary topic. If this article is moved to South Georgia then this would mean it's the primary topic, and as a primary topic it doesn't need disambiguation, natural or otherwise. If on the other hand it is not the primary topic, then the preference for natural disambiguation would point to choosing South Georgia Island over South Georgia (island). – Uanfala (talk) 19:01, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
South Georgia Island is not a natural name for South Georgia. It is a name invented by Wikipedians. Wikipedians should not be inventing our own names for islands, or for anything else. Kahastok talk 19:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in that case, there is no natural disambiguation option. – Uanfala (talk) 19:26, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there is. We call them both by their WP:COMMONNAMEs. South Georgia and South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. We can put a hatnote at the top of South Georgia if you like, that's fine, the reader looking for South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands is put under no greater strain than today. Though in practice, since the SGSSI is mentioned in the first sentence there's probably no point. This is the conclusion that we would reach in every other similar situation on Wikipedia and I do not understand why this one should be different. Kahastok talk 19:35, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The island is just named South Georgia. More broadly that term does get applied to the immediate off-shore islands such as Annenkov Island, but the main island is just 'South Georgia'. You might say 'South Georgia island' as a way to be unambiguous, which is like saying 'Nigel Phillips the Commissioner', but his name is still just 'Nigel Phillips'. The South Sandwich Islands are a geographically separate group, but they are bundled in with South Georgia and its offshore islands as SGSSI. The latter are small and less intently studied so most papers will refer just to South Georgia, as they only concern that island. Hogweard (talk) 13:19, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The logic is a bit... backwards. First there was a large and relatively important entity, South Georgia, known for several centuries as a whaling and exploration base. Then, in 1985, we administratively attach tiny and unimportant South Sandwich Islands and call the whole thing South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. Now, since that's a mouthful, people occasionally continue to refer to the whole thing as "South Georgia". The next thing you know, Wikipedians proclaim "ambiguity!" and want to get rid of South Georgia. If this continues, I'm going to establish South Georgia Liberation Front with Kahastok with the goal to free it from the South Sandwich invaders. No such user (talk) 14:11, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Indigenous population

If Europeans were the first to discover and settle the islands, they are the indigenous population, similar to the Scandinavians in Iceland and Polynesians in New Zealand. There seems to be a double standard for applying indigenous to Europeans. 80.195.3.151 (talk) 19:49, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

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"South Georgia (version 2)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect South Georgia (version 2) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 30 § South Georgia (version 2) until a consensus is reached. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:51, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]