Talk:Rhenish Warmblood

Sandbox material

This was sandboxed, may be worth adding if it can be sourced: The Oldenburg horse is bred in the region of lower Saxony, surrounding the city of Oldenburg. Graf Johann von Oldenburg XVI (1573–1603) was responsible for the development of the stud farm from which this breed was originally produced. The Hanoverian Breed was developed as an all-purpose horse for riding and driving, although the emphasis in their breeding is now placed on producing elegant sporthorses. Donnerlück is identified as a Rheinlander stallion due to his ancestry that can be traced back to the Rheinish studbook (rheinisches Pferdestammbuch). The Rheinlander breed, although historically a heavy draught breed, now consists of carefully bred sporthorses, and incorporates many animals of Westphalian, Hanoverian, Oldenburg and Trakehner breeding. Thoroughbred's have also been incorporated into the breeding program to provide refined characteristics, including longer legs and a finer bone and head. Breed traits include a height around 16.2hh, any coloring (although Chestnut is most common), and sturdy bone structure with short cannon bones and powerful hindquarters, dating back to the breed's draught ancestry. Donnerlück and his offspring display the breed's distinguished and powerful top line, with a deep chest and long neck, derived from the carriage horses in Weltmeyer's ancestry.

Cannot find link to original source. Montanabw^(talk) 04:31, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Rename this back to Rhinelander horse

I'm not sure why someone renamed this article from Rhinelander horse to Rhenish Warmblood. The English version of the German website for Hanoverians Association (which now holds the stud books and standards for the Rhinelander), call it "Rhineland Riding Horse" (the German version calls it (Rheinische Reitpferd). The American association calls it "Rhineland horse" and "Rhinelander". According to what I've read, the Rhinelander originated from the earlier heavy breed, Rheinisch Deutsches, but morphed into a saddle horse when agricultural work went mechanized (hence warmblood). The Englishized version of "Rhein" is "Rhine" (like the river). I don't know anyone who calls this horse "R____ Warmblood" and have never seen it written that way. "Warmblood" is just left out of the name entirely and is only used as a type or adjective such as "the Rhinelander, a warmblood". Per WP:TITLE this article should be named what it is commonly or formally called, which is "Rhinelander".   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 09:49, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

@Justlettersandnumbers: Even though you clearly have this article on your watchlist, and I posted this 2 weeks ago, you were mum (didn't respond). Seeing no objection, I moved the article from "Rhenish Warmblood" to "Rhinelander", [1] and you reverted it. [2] Your edit summary: Revert undiscussed move (WP:RMUM): per WP:NATURAL, "an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources", specifically the DAD-IS database (in Local names))

You mention WP:NATURAL, which doesn't apply here; WP:COMMONNAME does, however. The breed is not commonly called "Rhenish Warmblood" in English reliable sources. DAD-IS is mostly a livestock census, not exactly a horse industry reliable source, and it's only one source. Concerning, too, is that DAD-IS doesn't mention any of the "Rhineland" names, even though the German studbook exclusively uses "Rhineland" in its English version.

Considering the American and English/UK breed registries use "Rhineland", not "Rhenish", as does the English version of the German breed registry, I fail to see why you want to shoehorn this topic into an uncommon name. Please elaborate, and provide some reliable secondary sources that are not DAD-IS which use the term "Rhenish Warmblood". I will provide a list of those that use Rhineland/Rhinelander.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 14:20, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Grorp, I had intended to reply to your earlier post here (well, actually I thought I had), but was then away for a while – my apologies! Yes, WP:NATURAL can apply here, as neither 'Rhineland' nor 'Rhinelander' is available as a title for this page; in such cases the use of an alternative name is apparently preferred to disambiguation. Please note also that there seems to be little or no evidence that any one of the various names you've proposed below actually is the WP:COMMONNAME – but I haven't researched that in detail myself, so am open to correction. Another option when there's no clear common name in English is simply to use the actual name of the breed – which as I understand it has now changed from 'Rheinisches Warmblut' to 'Rheinisches Reitpferd'. Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:12, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

No one in the English-speaking world uses either of the German names Rheinisches Warmblut (transl. Rhenish warmblood) or Rheinisches Reitpferd (transl. Rhenish riding horse). The title "Rhinelander horse" which this article used to be called, is and was available without any disambiguation issues—and is patterned exactly like the other German warmblood articles Hanoverian horse and Westphalian horse, or other commonly known horses such as Andalusian horse, Arabian horse, and Friesian horse. So there's your WP:NATURAL criteria satisfied.

You have been treating me for quite a while now like I'm some misguided neophyte on the subject of horses or just a keyboard warrior blindly following some dumb online sources I came across, instead of following your lead by relying on your two favorite agricultural-focused tertiary sources Mason's World Dictionary of Livestock Breeds by CABI and the DAD-IS database by Food and Agriculture Organization as if those are the ne plus ultra of horsedom. They are not. DAD-IS's pathetically sparse database entry for Rheinisches Reitpferd doesn't trump actual well-sourced contemporary usage.

Over 30 years ago I knew a well-respected industry professional who bred and trained "Rhinelanders" in North America; a German man who had been an Olympic competitor in dressage and had been a trainer to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police force. And in his usual thick German accent, he never once called them "Rhenish" or "Rheinisches" anything. Despite poking all over the internet this month, I don't see that anything has changed over the intervening 3 decades, and I don't find anyone in the English-speaking horse world using the words "Rhenish" or "Rheinisches" except when referring to the breed's origin history in Germany or pointing out the name of the German studbook.

I was shocked you summarily reverted my well-researched rename/move. But even after I posted several of the top industry sources on the matter you asserted there seems to be little or no evidence that any one of the various names you've proposed below actually is the WP:COMMONNAME. And then you had the gall to admit but I haven't researched that in detail! Now please go look at the English-language sources below to see how WP:COMMONNAME is relevant to calling the article "Rhinelander horse" instead of an English translation of some older name that would be appropriate for a German Wikipedia COMMONNAME.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 01:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

The present name does appear to be an editor-invented term, a translation of part of a name combined with a descriptive term, and isn't actually used in the sources catalogued so far. The dominant name appears to be "Rhineland" with "Rhinelander" second, sometimes with modifiers (but not consistent ones) but often enough alone. So, for WP:CONCISE purposes, Rhineland horse would appear to be the most appropriate name, with the original Rheinlander horse as second choice. However, this could perhaps do with additional source aggregation, perhaps via Google Scholar. Regardless, nothing is going to happen without a WP:RM being opened.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources using Rhineland/Rhinelander

Selecting per WP:COMMONNAME, here are English-language sources using "Rhinelander" or "Rhineland" (not "Rhenish"):

1. American Rhineland Studbook
2. German breed standard (in English)
3. British Rhineland Studbook uses German breed standard
4. Australian registry
5. New Zealand registry spells it "Rheinland", and occasionally "Rhineland", but not "Rhenish"; Rhinelander used here and here
6. FEI list of studbooks uses "Rhinelander" for American, British and New Zealand studbooks (and doesn't use "Rhenish")
7. World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses refers to the American, British, Australian and New Zealand registries as "Rhinelander"
8. eurodressage.com announcement re 2020 Bundeschampionate
9. horsemagazine.com's coverage of Bundeschampionate and dressage breeding
10. Ten stallions at stud all called Rhinelanders on stud service marketing website

The only websites I found that prominently use "Rhenish Warmblood" (rather than "Rhineland") are the generally unreliable junky sources containing horse breed copycat content. Those in the sport horse industry, and those who ride, drive, breed, buy, sell, train, show, compete, judge, etc. call them "Rhinelander" or "Rhineland". The above-listed studbooks/registries cover pretty much the whole of English-speaking countries (except for South Africa, which probably doesn't even have any of these horses).   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 14:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

It's probable that those clickbait sites actually got "Rhenish Warmblood" from Wikipedia (i.e. WP:CITOGENESIS), since it seems unattested in quality sources. A large proportion of such sites are just based on WP content; many are prepared by content-scraping scripts, and these days get fed through "AI" (LLM) for rewording, which makes the plagiarism a bit harder to detect. It can often be demonstrated (via web.archive.org, etc.) that such a page did not exist before WP's article on the subject (or did but was named something else, that aligns with WP's former article title). I run into this all the time in a number of subjects. People sometimes mistakenly try to use such junk as evidence in RM discussions, but they don't count as sources WP considers reliable, even in a case when post-dating WP's own publication of a particular dubious term can't be proven due to lack of archival copies.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 20 October 2024

Rhenish Warmblood → Rhinelander horse – Move the article Rhenish Warmblood (a made-up translation of an uncommon German name) to Rhinelander horse (the common English name, and previous name of this article). The English-language citations and links call the breed Rhinelander, Rhineland horse, or Rhineland Riding Horse—with the most common one being "Rhinelander". Similarly, the International Federation for Equestrian Sports list of studbooks and the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses member list call the breed "Rhinelander" when referring to the four English-speaking countries USA, GB, AUS, NZ.

The article was unilaterally moved from "Rhinelander horse" to the dubious name "Rhenish Warmblood" in 2014 without discussion, and on the basis of a single unreliable source and a translation from German made by the moving editor (moved page Rhinelander horse to Rhenish Warmblood: FAO transboundary name, and closer to the German name). Today, of all the citations and links in the current version of the article, only one — the DAD-IS online database [3] — mentions the term "Rhenish Warmblood", and then only as a "local name". The DAD-IS database is a collection of self-reported information with no editorial oversight by the database-hosting organization, FAO, and is generally unreliable as a source for horse breed articles. See here and here for detailed evaluation/explanation of why that is.

German-language websites refer to the breed as "Rheinisches Reitpferd", and less commonly "Rheinisches Warmblut". Even the German breed association publishes an official English version in which they call the breed "Rhineland Riding Horse" and "Rheinländer" (§ 17.1).

Since "Rhinelander" is the most WP:COMMONNAME used in English, I propose returning the article name to "Rhinelander horse".   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 18:04, 20 October 2024 (UTC)