Talk:Orania

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Orania was nominated as a Geography and places good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (April 10, 2019). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Lead

@SONORAMA: The claim you've removed is supported by a reliable source: the Guardian. Also, its one of the only mentions in the lead at the moment of the key fact that this town is not generally open to black folks. There is no reason to doubt that, given how many sources describe this town as for whites only. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 17:08, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll add that the Gaurdian merely states that black folks fear they'll be met with violence, not that they have. As the American phenomena of Sundown towns shows, intimidation alone is enough to keep towns all-white. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 17:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello User:CaptainEek. The quote in question is: "Although Orania, in accordance with South Africa's constitution, has no formal law banning black visitors, in practice only Afrikaner residents are permitted; black people nearby fear they will be met with violence if they were to visit." My italics added. The text confuses visitors (of which there are lots of examples of non-whites visiting Orania) with residents (Orania currently has no non-white residents). I'd suggest making it clear that people of all races can and do visit Orania, but at present only white Afrikaners live there. I further suggest that this kind of down-in-the-weeds about outsiders perceptions of being met with violence versus the reality that they aren't might best be placed in the section on external reception, rather than in the lead. For that matter, there is simply no indication that Orania uses intimidation to keep people out; to the contrary, they seem eager to welcome visitors, although residency is restricted to Afrikaners who share their values. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SONORAMA (talk • contribs) 19:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Having just sat down and reworked the lead, I'm fine with leaving that bit out now. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 20:36, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that English-speaking whites aren't allowed to live in Orania either is probably how they get away with their exclusive policies without being considered "racist." TOttenville8 (talk) 17:00, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They are considered racist widely around south africa 165.0.2.153 (talk) 21:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are actually english speaking people on the town. I met a few Rhodesians and a scotsman. The town officials said that both Scots and Rhodesian cultures are close enough to Afrikaans culture and that they share a history. Personally the mental gymnastics these Oraniers are pulling is quite off pitting. 196.210.58.144 (talk) 06:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a German couple as well as a couple from New Zealand living there. You say it is mental gymnastics, but after having spoken to a Mr. Ferreira, a panelist on the residency council, he said they tried to catch them out by asking if they speak Afrikaans, which schools their kids go to, how religious etc. they are and they passed. The kids went to Afrikaans schools. And they spoke with thick accents but made great effort in learning Afrikaans. Jan200203 (talk) 22:31, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it fair to label any community racist just because their populace consists of one race purely, they want to maintain and preserve their culture and values, all cultures do this. cultures are different and generally it can be observed they don't mix. 2C0F:F4C0:B192:C790:2851:FAFD:56A9:6020 (talk) 07:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't the name of this article be changed ...

... to Orania, South Africa? TOttenville8 (talk) 16:27, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That will not be necessary. There is no other known towns or cities in the world named 'Orania'. - Hu753 (talk) 01:18, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. since it’s not recognized as it’s own nation by any other nation, it seems like political commitments would cause one to oppose this 2600:1700:3041:2FC0:7DE6:83FD:40F1:E166 (talk) 03:21, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, it'd be unnecessary disambiguation. We don't put Child Okeford, United Kingdom or Cuiabá, Brazil - if people are searching for Orania, they will only mean the South African settlement as there is no other Orania. Couruu (talk) 16:08, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First sentence of the lead

Why is the slur word "white" now used 4 times in the first 2 paragraphs to describe Orania? The community identify as "Afrikaners" and "Boers", not as white. Johnmars3 (talk) 06:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A 2022 RFC determined that the first sentence of the lead should read a white separatist town founded by Afrikaners. Changing it from that would require another RFC (which I think would be unlikely to produce a different result, since that description is extensively sourced to high-quality sources.) --Aquillion (talk) 01:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that both options are fine. "White separatist" and "Afrikaner nationalist/only" are both technically correct as far as I can tell Chujovas (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appreciate that you didn't revert my edit. I just find "Afrikaner nationalist" to be more appropriate. White separatist just sounds a bit misleading, Orania is specifically an Afrikaans community. I don't think an anglo would be allowed to live in Orania. I also don't think someone like Joost Strydom, for instance would say "we are a separatist town". Orania isn't necessarily trying to literally gain independence from South Africa, they're just attempting a strangely independent, self-sufficient community.

Thanks again mate,

-Roosterchz Roosterchz (talk) 13:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The term "white separatist" is misleading and technically incorrect:

a) Orania is an Afrikaner-only town. Not a whites-only town. If it was a whites only town they would be open to whites from England or America moving there, they are not.

b) Afrikaners are not white. DNA analysis clearly shows that they have African and Asian ancestry.

c) They do not describe themselves as white, but as Afrikaners or Boers. Respecting how people self-identify is important.

d) "White separatist" is a loaded word, it could even considered a slur with very negative connotations. Wikipedia does not condone dehumanizing language to describe vulnerable minorities. Johnmars3 (talk) 07:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I broadly agree with you, and for the purposes of this discussion, we're on the same side. However, the Afrikaners ARE white, maybe not 100%, but by your logic the average "white" American wouldn't even be white. I agree with you on everything else though. Roosterchz (talk) 15:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"White" has become a meaningless metric. For example the US government classify Middle Easterners and North Africans as "white". However, most Germanic or Celtic people would argue that they are not the same ethnicity as MENA people who seems to agree.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/17/1079181478/us-census-middle-eastern-white-north-african-mena Johnmars3 (talk) 05:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We all know what people are referring to when they call someone white, a person from Europe. Roosterchz (talk) 14:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Orania is not white separatist. They're Afrikaners/Boers, they wouldn't accept other Europeans because they don't share the same language, culture, etc. 2600:8807:8840:D880:C539:31EC:B751:2E70 (talk) 20:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've given it some thought over the days and yeah, 'White separatist' doesn't exactly fit reality. I apologize. Chujovas (talk) 11:50, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could we say "Orania is an Afrikaner Nationalist town in South Africa, founded by Afrikaners."? I think saying South African town sounds a bit odd, not to be obtuse or anything. Roosterchz (talk) 20:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been watching the back-and-forth changes in this article's first paragraph and I wonder whether another RfC is perhaps merited. I think "white separatist" does downplay the distinctly Afrikaner nature of the community, but the town was also founded as part of a broader effort to create a Volkstaat along ethnic and prejudiced lines (see sources 6 through 12) and I don't think "Afrikaner cultural town" does enough to convey that at a glance. Just my two cents though. SunTunnels (talk) 15:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned above and in the edit notice, the inclusion of "white separatist" was agreed on in a 2022 RFC. Another RFC would be needed to change it to anything else. --Aquillion (talk) 18:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]