This is an archive of past discussions about Odysseus. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Yeah Sirens could be one paragraph of the story yet no one put it in.
And after passing the Sirens, Odysseus and his men had to face Scylla (six-headed monster) and Charybdis (giant whirlpool) at the same time. (Book 12). 68.13.248.15122:03, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
We just got done reading the Odyssey in class at school, and the sirens were in it, right before Scylla and Charybdis. So you need to put an article in here about it.
Etymology of Odysseus
I recall that the etymology of the name Odysseus was said to be odyssesthai (Greek for hate) or something in this article. Why was this removed? If it was incorrect, does anyone have the etymology of this name?
I have changed man of constant sorrow to man of wrath as per Odyssey 19.408. Filiocht 13:58, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not clear why Greek "d" in Odysseus shows up as Latin "l" in Ulysses. I don't think this is a regular correspondence intervocalically, is it? Can anyone commment?
Probably from the Greek variants Ολυσεύς, Ουλιξεύς, Ουλίξης (Latin Ulysses, Ulixes, from Greek Oulixes, Olysseus, Odysseus) [1] --Odysses18:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Delta changing in lambda is nonstandard, but ancient greek is full of exceptions, especcially when it's about Homer, who spoke a sort of dialect of his own. About the etymology, I found that verb οδυσσομαι means "to get angry", and the latin word "odium" (hate) shares its origin. This verb only has aorist of medium diatesis and the third person singular of perfectum (medium diatesis).
Odysseus is a mythological personage, and there is no mention of his birth date in Homer's. So no. Uly20:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
There is a vague account by the Delphi oracle. The Roman emperor Hadrian visited Delphi and asked: "Where was Homer born and who were his parents?" The answer was "Homer was born on the island of Ithaca, and was none other than son of Telemachus, and grandson of Odysseus himself. Unfortunately there was no dating system before the first recorded Olympic games.--Odysses14:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Dante
Removed:
Interestingly, Odysseus is the only damned shade who is allowed by Dante to have the last word, as his speech ends the Canto.
This is clearly incorrect. Just to give two examples, Canto XXVIII ends with the words of Bertrand de Born, and Canto XXIX ends with the words of Capocchio. Ellsworth23:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Sisyphus as father of Odysseus?
as stated just below, Laertes was the father of Odysseus.
What source is the basis of this statement?
Removed this statement, since it is clear from the Odyssey that Laertes was Odysseus' father. --JW1805 05:17, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Just because the Odyssey says one thing, doesn't mean other (later?) traditions didn't name Sisyphus in Laertes' place. The question stands: is there any source on which this is based? -- Perey 20:40, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Robert Graves, in his "Greek Myths," gives alternate traditions that describe Sisyphus' seduction of Anticleia (Odysseus' mother) following a dispute with her father, Autolycus. The circumstances of the seduction is given as the source of Odysseus' "cunning" and his nickname "Hypsipylon." Graves lists his sources in a footnote but I don't currently have access to those texts. Ande B.19:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Ovid calls him the son of Sisyphus in Metamorphoses, and I believe Euripides does the same in Iphigenia at Aulis. It ought to be noted that, with the traditional genealogy of Greek heroes, there are serious problems with Sisyphus as Odysseus's father. Odysseus's contemporaries, Sarpedon and Glaucus, were great-great grandsons of Sisyphus, being grandsons of Bellerophon, himself a grandson of Sisyphus...I'm not sure if anyone noticed this in the ancient world, though. john k19:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the Euripides reminder, I found the reference almost immediately. As to trying to make sense of the generations and geneaologies in the myths, well, I gave up on that long ago. Ande B.23:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
For the most part, it's relatively comprehensible, and matches up fairly well, if only because later mythographers like Apollodorus tended to rationalize the schemes. But inconsistencies certainly do arise. john k23:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Sisyphus is said to be Odysseus' real father at Sophocles Philoctetes 417. Don't have exact references for the Ovid or Euripides. --Akhilleus20:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Some deleted text which needs merging
On 18:08, June 19, 2005, IP 206.248.156.184, deleted a section of this article which was called "Odysseus in the Trojan War". This deletion apparently went unnoticed by anyone, until I noticed it a few days ago. Subsequently a new section "During the Trojan War", covering some of the same material, has been written. I think there is content (and some better writing) from the deleted section which should be merged into the current one. At the same time, IMHO, a general rewrite of the section would be a good idea. For example, the last paragraph of the current section seems to have been tacked on to the end. It could be better incorporated better into the section, and in any case, is too long for a single paragraph. There are other things that need fixing, for example, the inconsistencies in references to the two Ajax's. I may get around to doing some, or all, of this myself, but… :-) Comments? Paul August☎20:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The deleted section
Before the Greek fleet sailed for Troy, Odysseus, Phoenix and Ajax went to Scyros to persuade Achilles to join the battle.
During the Trojan War, Odysseus and Diomedes stole the Palladium (and King Rhesus' horses) in a nocturnal raid.
Later, with the aid of Athena, Ajax rescued the body of Achilles from the hands of the Trojans. In the competition between him and Odysseus for the armor of Achilles, the Trojan captives who judged the competition, at the instigation of Athena, awarded the prize to Odysseus. This so enraged Ajax that it caused his death (Odyssey, xi. 541). According to a later and more detailed story, his disappointment drove him mad; he rushed out of his tent and fell upon the flocks of sheep in the camp under the impression that they were the Trojan enemy; on coming to his senses, in shame he killed himself with the sword which he had received as a present from Hector. Little mention is made thereafter of Achilles's armour, so it presumably was lost when Odysseus's ship sank on his voyage home.
Odysseus never forgave Palamedes for sending him to the Trojan War (some sources date to approximately 1194–1184 BC). When Palamedes advised the Greeks to return home, Odysseus accused him of being a traitor, forged false evidence and found a fake witness to testify against him. Palamedes was stoned to death.
The Greek siege of Troy had lasted for ten years. The Greeks devised a new ruse - a giant hollow wooden horse (the Trojan Horse). The choice of gift may have been influenced by the fact that the Trojans were famous horse-breeders, as archaeology confirms. It was built by Epeius and filled with Greek warriors led by Odysseus. The rest of the Greek army appeared to leave and the Trojans accepted the horse as compensation for theft of the Palladium. A Greek spy, Sinon, convinced the Trojans the horse was a gift despite the warnings of Laocoon and Cassandra. The Trojans celebrated hugely and when the Greeks emerged from the horse the city was in a drunken stupor. The Greek warriors opened the city gates to allow the rest of the army access and the city was ruthlessly pillaged - all the men were killed and all the women taken into slavery.
Ugh, the entire section could use a good re-write. The syntax is frightening and the organization is difficult. It sounds as if the contributor(s) had read the Illiad but are not familiar with other sources. It will take considerable effort to clean up something like this, though. If I get a chance, I'll give it a try. Otherwise, good luck. Ande B04:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
--Later on, it was learned that the war could not be won without the poison arrows of Heracles, which were owned by the abandoned Philoctetes. Odysseus and Diomedes (or, according to some accounts, Odysseus and Neoptolemus) went out to retrieve them. In any event, upon their arrival Philoctetes (still suffering from the wound) was still very angry with the Danaans, especially Odysseus, for abandoning him. While his first instinct was to shoot Odysseus when they arrived to retrieve him, Philoctetes anger was eventually diffused due to Odysseus' persuasive powers and the influence of the gods. Odysseus returned with Philoctetes and his arrows to the Argive camp.--
Uh... what happened with this section...? nothing before it mentions anything about Philoctetes being wounded or abandoned...
World of Biography link
Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry
probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jameswatt (talk • contribs) .
please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead. This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article. a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt. thanks. --He:ah?20:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Helios' Revenge
Homer clearly states that all the men are killed by the storm before the ship sinks. But it says here that they all survive and die later...
Fuzzibloke08:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Naive presentation as if a "biography"
This article needs documentation for its statements. so that they can be digested. I wouldn't apply one of those lazy bumperstickers, but a narrative that echoed its sources more closely would be more stylish and credible. --Wetman01:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
landing at Troy
should it be said that Odysseus throwing his shield down is only told in some accounts. Some accounts say that Achilleus was the second person to land after Protesileus (others say he was the last to land), while others say Diomedes, ect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dondoolee16:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC) • contribs) .
Authors as in more modern day authors from myth encyclpopedias and stories or Greek authorship? Greek authorship seems like it may be an almost impossable task in some cases. In most major mythologies, such as Odysseus, and the events in the Trojan War in general, there are many varied stories of similar events many of them with uknown authorship or from the oral tradition. In any case, am I wrong to think that version written in this article is one of the more obscure landing stories? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dondoolee (talk • contribs) .
Don't forget to sign your talk page posts by adding 4 tildes, like this: ~~~~
Greek mythology originates in an oral tradition, but it comes to us through sources that we can identify specifically, like the Homeric poems, various Greek tragedies, Apollodorus, Hyginus, the Suda, etc. It's not that hard at all. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Definatly the Homeric poems, but Hyginus and the Suda are kind of like encyclopedias on the myths written in A.D aren't they? Is Gustav Schwab or other more modern myth books and encyclopedias valid sources to site? Also should the writers of the tragedies be considerd differently and their stories put seperatly from the actual mythology? I honestly don't know. Dondoolee16:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
duplication of effort?
Shouldn't sections 4 and 5 -- the journey from Troy and the arrival back in Ithaka -- be left to the Odyssey page? Perhaps, on that page, sections can be arranged to allow linking of descriptions back here, as needed? Jrmccall00:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Odysseus travelling the Atlantic?
The Greeks never used their word for ocean, "okeanos" to designate the Mediterranean, but only the words pontos, pelagos and thalassa. For the ancient greeks ocean meant exclusively "the river that surrounds the world" outside the mediterranean basin and the known world. The ocean "comes back on itself" (XVII,399 and 20,65) implying that it is subject to tides. There can be no doubt, because the word used, apsorro-os means "flowing back" or "ebbing", the movement after high tide. This word, which is also used for someone going back to Ilium (VII,413) as well as other indications led the Greek geographer Strabo to note that "Homer was not ignorant about the ebb and flow of Okeanos" and he concluded that several events described by the poet must therefore have taken place in the Atlantic Ocean.
This text is taken from Iman Wilkens book and to continue I will just name the locations he gives for all the places Odysseus went without much argumentation because that would take too much space and effort for now. Fasten your seatbelts:
Troy is Gog and Magog Hills near Cambridge;
Ismarus is in Finisterre, Brittany;
After that a storm blowing Odysseus cs. southward, the sails blown out, at the mercy of the wind and current which drives them to Spain. According to Cailleux Odysseus arrives in a bay on the north-west coast of Spain, near the town of El Padron, whose patron saint is San Iago (St James), who, according to legend,arrived by sea with twelve companions ( a reminder of the twelve ships?);
Two days later with strong wind from the north and strong current also to the south they fail to round Cape Malea, which is Cape St. Vincent, south west Portugal and thus failing to go eastward to reach Ithaca (Cadiz, Spain);
Further south by the storm missing Cythera (Morocco);
The land of the lotus-eaters is Senegal;
The land of the Cyclopes is Cape Verde Islands;
Then Following the gulf stream and favourable winds to: The Aeolian Island, which is Saba, Antilles;
The story of the winds, symbolizing this is not a favourable route back to Europe, and thus they are being blown back to the Aeolian Island;
After that following the right direction which is more to the north they reach the land of the Laestrygonians, which is Cuba (Havana);
With the gulf-stream and west-winds they now go to Aeaea, the island of Circe, which is Schouwen (province: Zeeland, town of Zierikzee, south-west Netherlands);
Than Odysseus has to go to Hades, which is Walcheren, one of Zeeland's islands, Zeeland being a province of the Netherlands;
Than back to circe;
After that the Tin-route; Sirens is The Solent (southern England);
Scylla and Charybdis is Mount's Bay, Cornwall;
Thrinacia is Land's End, Cornwall
Now southward again; Ogygia, Island of Calypso, which is St. Miguel, Azores (check vegetation and other characteristics!);
Scheria, Phaeacians is Lanzarote, canary islands;
Intermezzo: Delos is Veluwe-area, Netherlands;
Ithaca Cadiz;
All this, I repeat, according to Iman Wilkens; As you see there is not only a story but also directions for two important sea-routes: How to navigate cross the Atlantic, with locations of wind-stills, ruling wind-directions, direction of the gulf-streams and mentioning the most important archipels (Azores, Cape Verde Islands, Antilles, Canary Islands, Cuba) and on the other hand the tin-route to Cornwall, tin being an important substance for manufacturing bronze;
Believable or not, a fantastic theory alltogether in my opinion anyway
After skimming through the article on Odysseus, it wasn't made clear to me whether Odysseus is a purely fictional character, whether he is based on a real person living back then, or if he was actually a real person. If anyone could clear this up for me, I'd be greatly obliged. --71.98.0.8801:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
It is to my understanding that Odysseus wasn't a suitor for Helen, he proposed the oath to ease Tyndareus' fear over war for his daughter in exchange for Tyndareus' services to help Odysseus get Penelope is this correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.240.138.26 (talk • contribs) .
He wasn't a real suitor, he said he was one so he wouldn't have to travel so far to meet all the kings and leaders. --Soetermans09:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
About his name
In the etymology section this is stated:
"This interpretation is being reinforced by the fact that Odysseus hates the gods and he is hated by the gods."
That seems incorrect. Poseidon was furious at Odysseus, but he was greatly helped by Athena in the Trojan War and in his later travels. Hermes has helped him also, while on the island of Circe. According to mythology Odysseus was a descendant of Hermes and Zeus, so that he hates the gods and they hate them is a exagerrated. --Soetermans09:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Pronunciation of name
I've always heard Odysseus pronounced exactly as described in the IPA bit of the article (or here), which is clearly 4 syllables. However, several other sources specify that Odysseus should always be pronounced with only 3 syllables. The only online one I can find is here (bottom of the 5th page of the PDF, "His name, “Odysseus”, is three syllables;"). I went looking for this online confirmation because this is the first time I've bothered reading the introductory notes of the Penguin Classic version I have and, lo and behold, it specifies 3 syllables.
What I'm trying to understand is: Is it untrue? Is this just a variation? Is it because Homer wrote in a dactylic hexameter, making a three-syllable word more "useful", maybe? And regardless of the reason, is it notable enough to be mentioned in the article?
Wow, Nobody's touched this in over 3 years? Time for some work! So far, I've cleaned up the syntax and deleted some extraneous details on the first two paragraphs. The synopses of the Iliad and Odyssey are going to get significantly smaller; there's no need for such huge summaries outside the scope of the articles for those two works. Also, the grammar and syntax on this article is going to get a major overhaul. I hope you all enjoy (or at least appreciate) the finished product.
Molinero18:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Greek Mythology
Can someone add the greek mythology sidebar? This article is already in the greek mythology catagory. The sidebar is on the right side of Jason, Theseus, and Oedipus.
It seems the other heroes like Hercules need this sidebar too.
Say, I haven't the foggiest idea on how to edit wikipedia articles and don't want to break anything, but I do note... the introduction states that Odysseus "is most famous for the twenty years it took him to return home after the Trojan War." This is not correct, his wanderings only took ten years. (of which seven spend with Calypso) The other ten years he was away from home were taken up by the Trojan War itself. Later on in the article there's another reference to his "twenty years of wandering" in the entry describing Joyce's Ulysses.
[http://www.pantheon.org/articles/o/odysseus.html Here's an article to confirm this, if necessary.]
Anyway, doesn't give a very good impression about the factual accuracy of the article. Should it just be changed to ten years, or should the sentence be amended so it does mention Odysseus was 20 years away from home, but only spend 10 years trying to reach Ithaka after the end of the war?
Regards,
82.139.80.15712:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC) Randal
Yep, 10 years of war, 10 years to get home = 20 years away from Ithaca. People keep on changing this figure, I'm not sure whether it's vandalism, or a well-intentioned but incorrect change. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
So, I take another look at this page a few weeks later, and somebody edited it back to 20 years. *groan* I'll try putting it back at ten, but I wonder how long it will stay that way. Is there a way to prevent this sort of thing short of locking an entire page? 82.139.80.22209:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)Randal
Section "Other stories"::"Modern" needs clean-up
Not only is it littered with parodies, references on the side, and the like (it reads like one of those dreaded "X in popular culture" sections), but it also misses important real works involving Odysseus, like the 1997 series / film The Odyssey. Shinobu11:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Odysseus' death
Shouldn't there be a section on Odysseus' death. It is only mentioned that Circe bore him a son after he left called Telegonus, who eventually brought about his death. Shouldn't we put some details about his death from whatever we know about Eugammon's Telegoneia. At least a link? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Avkulkarni (talk • contribs) 11:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
That little section seems a bit... weak. It needs some attention, to say the least. I do not know if you can generalize that odysseus was seen as a bad guy by the romans... and in any case, even in Greece, how odysseus was portrayed/viewed shifted around. Novium18:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Odysseus or Ulysses?
Is Odysseus or Ulysses the normal name of this person in English nowadays? Should other articles which link to this one respect the decision taken in relation to the title of this article? This has come up on Orion (mythology).
I'm not suggesting it's a particularly pressing need, I'm certainly not suggesting somebody checks every article which links to this, but I suggest that where this has become disputed we should go for Odysseus unless there is some good reason to the contrary. PatGallacher17:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
It depends on subject. I would not move this article; but Ulysses is much more commonly used in general English, and is therefore clearer in cross-references. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson18:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Do you have any sources for that one way or another? Google is particularly bad for this because of the Joyce novel and to a lesser extent the cartoon Ulysses 31. It's been a long time since I studied Classics up to GCSE level, but he was called "Odysseus" in almost every major book used, including translations of Homer. Timrollpickering18:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes but GCSE level is hardly "Homeric studies" or at university level - it's taken at the age of 15/16. But from memory "Ajax" was the name generally used not "Aias" (and it was the same for both, although Telamon's son was rather more prominent). This would suggest that "Odysseus" is very much a term used in English for the masses. FWIW it's also what he's called in the film Troy, the Doctor Who television serial The Myth Makers. OTOH Ulysses 31 calls the future character "Ulysses", but it's not clear from the various pages if the Greek (who appears in one episode) is "Ulysses" or "Odysseus". But then Ulysses 31 didn't originate in English. Timrollpickering20:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I see the Britannica begins their article by identifying Odysseus as Greek, and then saying Latin Ulixes, EnglishUlysses. Since they don't Use English as we do, their naming policy is a weak reed, but they endorse Ulysses as the English term. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson19:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I have consulted the paper Britannica, it appears to be ambiguous, not to say confused. It does say this at the start of the article titled Odysseus, the entry for Ulysses says "see Odysseus", and the entries for Troy and Ithaca call him Odysseus. There is no Wikipedia guideline that says that once an article achieves FA status its wording becomes sacred, sometimes this can lead to an article being subjected to greater scrutiny. PatGallacher16:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't really know of a good way of illustrating dominant usage, but I'm quite sure that any academic sources dealing with the classical world are going to call him Odysseus unless they're specifically discussing treatments of him in Latin literature. For what it's worth (not much) the Encarta article seems to be at "Odysseus". Personally, I see no reason to change anything; the article can stay at Odysseus, and other articles can refer to him as Odysseus or Ulysses as the major contributors see fit. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the double post, but I liked this quote so much I thought others here might appreciate it as well (originally posted at Talk:Orion (mythology)):
I've always used Odysseus (Ulysses has connotations with the James Joyce novel), but then I too read the Roger Lancelyn Green retellings of the Greek myths. What he specifically said was:
"...the true Greek names fling wide the magic casements on the instant. Led by them we step directly back into the Heroic Age, into the bright, misty morning of legend and literature:
The middle section on the Odyssey would be more appropriate in the Odyssey article, wouldn't it? Obviously, Odysseus' exploits in his own epic should be addressed, but shouldn't it be done more succinctly here? Also, it might be helpful to break down the article this way: Odysseus as portayed in...and then go chronologically through Greek epic and tragedy, later Roman authors, etc. Just a suggestion. I'm busy wreaking havoc elsewhere, so I'll leave the work to others. Ifnkovhg (talk) 19:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Ulysses redirect
Currently, Ulysses redirects to this article, and a hatnote links to Ulysses (disambiguation). There are several listings on the disambig page that will be popular search targets, such as the novel. I see no justification for having Ulysses redirect here because it is an aternative name for Odysseus, even though Ulysses has many other uses than that. Therefore, I propose that we delete the Ulysses redirect, move the disambig page to the unappended title, and then delete the now-redirected disambig page, as there is no reason to search for it. seresin | wasn't he just...?23:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Ismarus (Ismaros) is the mountain or region where the Cicones (Kikones, Ciconians) live. So it is covered in this article. I'll make a change to include the name Ismarus/Ismaros as well. Ivan Denisovitch (talk) 13:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The Sirens
The previous version of the section on the Sirens listed a lot of details that aren't part of the Odyssey (nearly getting free, being bound by chains, the appearance of the Sirens, etc). They may have come from a movie somewhere.
A couple days ago, I made what seems to me to be a rather obvious edit and removed the first of two summaries of the Polyphemus part of the Odyssey. Falling, as it does, at the beginning of the synopsis and without a heading, it seems totally out of place. Added to that is the fact that it's only marginally shorter than the summary of that episode that's included in the proper chronological place. A new user, Oculist, has twice reverted my edit. His or her claims (apparently that it's a shorter summary of the entire poem, which is isn't, and that it should be recounted twice because it's important, which I don't believe follows) don't appear to make much sense, so I'm reverting the edit again. I'm hoping that Oculist or other users will respond here so that consensus can be reached and we won't have to get into an edit war. Particularly, I'm hoping Oculist will expand on his or her reasoning, which isn't at all clear. Eceresa (talk) 00:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say it was a summary of the entire poem. What I was saying was it gives a summary of the crux of the reason why Odysseus has to bear a long journey home. If that event with Polyphemus never happened and if he didn't give into pride in telling Polyphemus his name at the last minute, he would have had a much faster trip home. I think this is very crucial to the Odyssey and it's important to have this at the beginning to save the reader from reading a boatfull of text to figure this out. If you have a problem with the length of the text then I'm happy with a shorter version that still keeps the important details if you want to shorten it. 02:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oculist (talk • contribs)
That's clearer, but you still don't make a decent argument as to why it needs to be explained twice. One could as easily say that he doesn't reach home sooner because his men open Aeolus's bag, or because Calypso won't let him go, or because Athena lingers in convincing Zeus to compel Calypso. Following your logic, we'd have to tell the whole story twice. Shortening it won't help, as the problem is the repetition. While it's being discussed on this page, the awkward portion you keep adding should be left out. You can copy it here for reference if you'd like, so that other users can comment. And once again, you should sign your posts with four tildes. Eceresa (talk) 02:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Removing last paragraph of section "during Trojan War
I am removing the last paragraph because:
1) there is no need of a random literary analysis of a mythological hero. (only a prof named Adele Haft)
2)it is located in a section about Odysseus during the Trojan war, this paragraph seems to be literary analysis of only the Iliad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dondoolee (talk • contribs) 08:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining this time. I disagree. This isn't a random analysis; it's an analysis of this character's portrayal in one of the main sources we have for the character. It refers back to the text to make points about the character. And while the Iliad doesn't relate the story of the entire war, "During the Trojan War" seems an excellent place for inclusion of discussion stemming from that source. Eceresa (talk) 22:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Dondolee on this one. Analysis of the character of Odysseus is welcome, but it's not as if there's a lack of material on the subject. Haft's article is only of many on the subject, and there's no sign that her arguments are particularly notable or influential; judging only from the summary here, I would say that they shouldn't be included. If you want an evaluation of the character of Odysseus in the Iliad, there are hundreds of sources available; off the top of my head, I would say that Nagy's Best of the Achaeans or Martin's Langauge of Heroes would be a better source, and I'm sure there are even more appropriate sources (Stanford's The Ulysses Theme?) that could be found. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
(Copied from Eceresa's talk page) sorry about not posting a comment as to why I deleted the last paragraph of Odysseus in "During the Trojan War". That being said let's just look at Odysseus as just a literary figure rather than a mythological figure for the sake of argument. Based off an assumption we both agree that Odysseus would be one of the more important characters of Western Literature (once again as a literary character and not a mythological figure) it would be assumed that there is much analysis about him, and much of it contradicting. Look for example at Hamlet (or what if we took Jesus as just a strictly literary character) the sources would be too overwhelming to make a concise, clear article about one person for one article. The problem compounds itself tenfold I believe when talking about not only a significant literary figure but also a mythological figure as well. If however there was another article in wikipedia entitled "Literary Character Analysis of Odysseus" I would have no problem with that as long as it was referenced properly.
As to the character analysis of just "Iliad" Odysseus in a section labled "during the Trojan War"; not including the disputed last paragraph or the first intro paragraph (or line breaks or whatever you wish to call them), 6 have nothing to do with the Iliad while only three do, so in relationship to the article just to analyze his characterization in the Iliad seems odd. Also, In even ancient Times Odysseus was a man who was treated very differently by different authors (Look at the Iliad and Philoctetes for example). TRhat's not to take away from the Iliad, which is the most complete and best source to take for Odysseus, but it is like saying if one wants to just take The Bible for an encyclopedia article on Jesus (once again even only looking at him as a literary person.Dondoolee (talk) 10:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I see what both of you are saying, now that it's been explained in a bit more detail. Sounds to me, though, like that's more of an argument for expansion than deletion. The discussion should be there, but there are other sources you'd like to see. Great. My suggestion would be to re-write it, incorporating what you think of as better sources. It's possible Haft's analysis would be shortened and deemphasized, or even eliminated and replaced with other sources. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that; I've never heard of her before. I think what's there should stay if the alternative is deletion, but I'd in no way be against improvement. Eceresa (talk) 13:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Odyssey stuff...
be condensed? Seeing as how it has its own article? The space would be better served expanding upon Odysseus' portrayal in Greek tragedy, Roman epic, vase painting, etc. Ifnkovhg (talk) 06:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Interesting question. I wonder if it should be taken out all together and you can just have a link that says: SEE ODYSSEY. Or take out the Odyssey summary with a link that says SEE ODYSSEUS. If someone thinks otherwise please state why, as I see no good reason why not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dondoolee (talk • contribs) 06:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Below is the Odyssey section that I have imperiously excised. If anything, it should replace the corresponding section in the Odyssey article; but it doesn't really belong here. Ifnkovhg (talk) 04:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
The Cicones
After Odysseus left Troy he came first to Ismarus, the land of the Cicones. They sacked the town, and divided up the booty fairly. Odysseus then (according to his account given to Alcinous) gave orders to leave, but his men were anxious to stay and feast. The Cicones rallied back up with troops who had chariots from inland and launched a surprise attack. In a large battle by the ships Odysseus and his men fought valiantly, but as the battle dragged on the Cicones broke their defensive line. Odysseus lost six men from each of his ships before they fled.
The Lotus-Eaters
Ismarus is the last definite historical location Odysseus visited. As if to emphasise his passing into the land of myth and legend, he was driven for ten days When Odysseus and his men landed on the island of the Lotus-Eaters, Odysseus sent out a scouting party of three men who ate the lotus with the natives. This caused them to stop caring about going home, and desire only to eat the lotus. Odysseus went after the scouting party, and dragged them back to the ship against their will. He set sail, with the drugged sailors tied to the rowing benches to prevent them from swimming back to the island.
Polyphemus
Odysseus offering wine to the Cyclops
Odysseus landed on an island full of goats. Nearby, within earshot, was the territory of the Cyclopes. Drawn by the sounds of civilisation, Odysseus sailed over to it with a single ship. He took a dozen men with him as a scouting party (including Achaemenides and Antiphus) and entered a large cave. They did not realise that it was the dwelling of Polyphemus the Cyclops. When he returned, he refused hospitality to his uninvited guests, and trapped them in the cave by blocking the entrance with a boulder that could not be moved by mortal men. He then proceeded to eat a pair of them at each meal, finally eating Antiphus as one of the third pair, but Odysseus devised a cunning plan. He and his men turned the olive tree branch which Polyphemus used to shepherd his flocks with into a giant spear, while Polyphemus was out of the cave shepherding his flocks.
To lower Polyphemus's guard, Odysseus gave him the strong, unwatered wine given them by Maron, the Ismaran priest of Apollo. When the thoroughly inebriated Polyphemus asked for his name, Odysseus told him that it was "Noman". (Οὔτις, "Noman", is also a short form of his own name — a word game which is lost in translated versions.) In thanks for the wine, Polyphemus offered to eat him last. Once the giant fell asleep, Odysseus and his men drove their specially fashioned spear through his single eye, and blinded him. Hearing Polyphemus's cries, other Cyclopes called up to his cave to ask what was wrong. Polyphemus replied, "Οὖτίς με κτείνει δόλῳ οὐδὲ βίηφιν." ("Noman is killing me either by treachery or brute violence!") The other Cyclopes let him be, thinking that his outbursts must be either madness or the will of the gods.
In the morning, Polyphemus rolled back the boulder to let the sheep out to graze. Now blind, he could not see the men, but he felt the tops of his sheep to make sure that the men were not riding them, and spread his arm at the entrance of the cave. Odysseus and his six remaining men escaped, however, by tying themselves to the undersides of three sheep each. Once out, they loaded the sheep aboard their ship and set sail. According to Virgil, they accidentally left Achaemenides behind in their rush.
As Odysseus and his men were sailing away, he revealed his true identity to Polyphemus. Enraged, Polyphemus tried to sink the ship with boulders, but, because he was blind, he missed, although the rocks landed close enough to rock the ship. When the ship appeared to be getting away at last, Polyphemus raised his arms to his father, Poseidon, and asked him to not allow Odysseus to get back home to Ithaca. If this could not be granted, however, he must arrive alone, his crew dead, in a stranger's ship.
This event is the setting for the only surviving complete satyr play, Cyclops by Euripides. This version contains a more humorous version of the story by including the cowardly satyrs.
According to Virgil's Aeneid, Achaemenides was one of Odysseus's crew who stayed on Sicily with Polyphemus until Aeneas arrived and took him with him. Virgil was probably trying to interweave his tale as much as possible with Homer's already ancient, great work, especially as Achaemenides had nothing to do with the story at all and was in fact never mentioned again.
Aeolus
Continuing his journey, Odysseus stopped at Aeolia, the home of Aeolus, the mortal favoured by the gods enough to be given the power of controlling the winds. Aeolus gave Odysseus and his crew hospitality for a month, in return for Odysseus's interesting stories. Aeolus also provided a bag filled with all winds but the one to lead him home. Because Odysseus guarded the bag for the entire voyage home, without so much as a wink of sleep, his crew suspected that some treasure might be in it. They decided to open it as soon as he fell asleep — just before their home was reached. They were immediately blown back to Aeolia by a violent storm. Aeolus refused to offer any more help because he realized that Odysseus must be cursed by the gods. Odysseus had to begin his journey from Aeolia to Ithaca over again. Although heartbroken, he hid his feelings from his crew.
The Laestrygonians
They came next to Telepylos, the stronghold of Lamos, king of the Laestrygonians. Odysseus's ships entered a harbour surrounded by steep cliffs, with a single entrance between two headlands. The captains took their ships inside and made them fast close to one another, where it was dead calm. Odysseus kept his own ship outside the harbour, moored to a rock. He could see nothing but some smoke rising from over the horizon. He sent two of his company with an attendant to investigate the inhabitants.
The men followed a road and eventually met a young woman, who said she was a daughter of Antiphates (another name for Lamos), the king, and directed them to his house. When they arrived there, however, they found a gigantic woman, the wife of Antiphates who promptly called her husband. He immediately left the assembly of the people and, on arrival, snatched up one of the men and started to eat him. The other two ran away, but Antiphates raised a hue-and-cry. Soon they were pursued by many Laestrygonians — men with the strength of giants — who threw vast rocks from the cliffs, smashing the ships, and speared the men like fish.
Odysseus escaped with his single ship due only to the fact that it was not trapped in the harbour. The rest of his company was lost.
Circe
The next stop was Aeaea, the island of the enchantress Circe, where Odysseus sent ahead a scouting party. Circe invited the scouting party in for a meal, and turned all the men into swine after they ate food laced with one of her magical sleep-inducing potions. Only the leader of the scouting party, Eurylochus, suspecting treachery from the outset, escaped to warn Odysseus and the others, who had stayed behind with the ships.
Odysseus, against Eurylochus's advice, set forth to rescue his transfigured men but was intercepted by Hermes and told to procure the herb moly, which would protect him from a similar fate. When it neutralized her magic, he threatened to kill her. She begged for mercy and offered to sleep with him. He forced her to swear not to plot against him any longer, then obliged by Hermes's counsel. He then refused to eat and drink until his crew was turned back into humans. When she had done this, she asked Odysseus to stay. This he did, for an entire year. He eventually left Aeaea at the insistence of his crew. Circe agreed that it was time for him to go, and gave him advice about the remainder of his journey. During the preparation for departure, however, Odysseus's youngest crewman, Elpenor, fell from a roof and died.
Circe subsequently bore Odysseus a son, Telegonus, who would eventually cause his father's death.
Journey to the Underworld
After speaking to Circe, Odysseus decided to talk with Tiresias, so he and his men journeyed to the River Acheron in Hades the Underworld, where they performed sacrifices which allowed them to speak to the dead. Odysseus sacrificed a ram, attracting the dead spirits to the blood. He held them at bay and demanded to speak with Tiresias, who told him how to pass by Helios's cattle and the whirlpool-causing monster Charybdis. Tiresias also told him that, after his return to Ithaca, he must take a well-made oar and walk inland with it to parts where no-one mixed sea salt with food, until someone asked him why he carries a winnowing fan. At that place, he must fix the oar in the ground and make a sacrifice to appease Poseidon. Tiresias also told Odysseus that, after that was done, he would die an old man, "full of years and peace of mind"; his death would come from the sea and his life ebb away gently. (Some read this as saying that his death would come away from the sea, as opposed to out of the sea.)
While in Hades, Odysseus also met Achilles (who told him that he would rather be a slave on earth than the king of the dead), Agamemnon, and his mother, Anticlea. The soul of Ajax, still sulking about Achilles's armour, refused to speak to Odysseus, despite the latter's pleas of regret.
Odysseus also met his comrade, Elpenor, who told him of the manner of his death and begged him to give him an honorable burial.
At Elpenor's funeral, Circe warned Odysseus of the dangers of the singing creatures who lured men to their death on the rocks around their island. She advised him to avoid them but said that, if he really felt that he must listen, he should have his men plug their ears with beeswax and tie him to the mast to keep him from escaping.
Odysseus told his men to do so. As they passed the island, the three Sirens began to sing beautifully, promising him wisdom and knowledge of past and future. Enchanted by their song, he struggled and tried to break free, but Eurylochus and Perimedes bound him even more tightly until they passed beyond the island.
Scylla and Charybdis
Odysseus had been told by Circe that he would have a choice between two paths home. One was the Wandering Rocks, where either all made it through or all died, and which had only previously been passed by Jason, with Zeus's help. Odysseus, however, chose the second path: on one side of the strait was a monster called Charybdis, whose whirlpool would sink the ship; on the other was a monster called Scylla, daughter of Crataeis, who had six heads and could seize and eat six men.
The advice was to sail close to Scylla and lose six men but not to fight, lest they should lose more men. Odysseus did not dare tell his crew of the sacrifice, or they would have cowered below and not rowed, in which case all would have ended up in Charybdis. Six men duly died. Odysseus said that the desperate cries of the wretched, betrayed men were the worst thing he had ever known. Clearly this affected morale and left the survivors feeling mutinous.
The Cattle of Helios
Finally, Odysseus and his surviving crew approached an island, Thrinacia, which was sacred to Helios, who kept hallowed cattle there. Odysseus, having been warned by Tiresias and Circe not to touch these cattle, told his men that they would not land there. Eurylochus first argued that the men were mourning, then refused to travel by night and finally threatened mutiny. Outnumbered, Odysseus gave in.
The men were soon trapped on the island by adverse winds and, after their food stores had run out, began to get hungry. Odysseus went inland to pray for help and fell asleep. In his absence, Eurylochus reasoned that they might as well eat the cattle and be killed by the gods as die of starvation, and claimed that they would offer sacrifices and treasure to appease the gods if they returned alive to Ithaca. When they slaughtered the cattle, the guardians of the island, Helios's daughters Lampetia and Phaethusa, told their father, who told to Zeus that he would take the sun down to Hades if justice was not done. When the ship put to sea, a storm conjured by Zeus killed all the rest but Odysseus. The crewless ship was sucked into Charybdis, but Odysseus survived by clinging to an olive tree below Scylla's cave. When Charybdis spat out the remains of his ship, he let go and landed on the keel, which drifted across the sea for nine days. Then on the tenth day, he was washed up on an island.
The island, Ogygia, was home to the nymph Calypso (daughter of Atlas), who held Odysseus captive as her lover for seven years, promising him immortality if he agreed to stay. On behalf of Athena, Zeus intervened and sent Hermes to tell Calypso to let him go.
Odysseus duly departed on a small raft, furnished by Calypso with provisions of water, wine and food, only to be hit by a storm from his old enemy Poseidon. He was washed up on the island of Scheria and found by Nausicaa, the daughter of King Alcinous and Queen Arete of the Phaeacians, who entertained him well. The bard Demodocus sung a song about the Trojan War. As Odysseus, as yet unidentified by the Phaeacians, had been at Troy and longed to return home, he wept at it, at which point Alcinous pressed him for his true identity.
It is here that the story of Odysseus's trip from Troy to Scheria, which occupies books nine to twelve of The Odyssey, is told. After his recital, the Phaeacians offer him passage home, with all the hoardings he obtained along the way and the gifts the Phaecians themselves bestowed upon him (showing xenia, the idea of hospitality). King Alcinous provided one fast Phæacian ship that soon[1] carried Odysseus home to Ithaca.
Poseidon, on seeing Odysseus's return, was furious and decided to cast a ring of mountains around Scheria so that they could never sail again. This would have been very damaging to the Phaeacians, for they were seafarers, but Zeus persuaded Poseidon not to go ahead with the idea. Instead, he turned the ship on which Odysseus journeyed home to stone.
Odysseus reaches Ithaca
Back in Ithaca, Penelope was having difficulties, her husband having been gone for twenty years. She did not know whether he was alive or dead, and was beset with numerous men who thought that a fairly young widow and queen of a small but tidy kingdom was a great prize: they pestered her to declare Odysseus dead and choose a new husband. They loitered about the palace, eating her food, drinking her wine and consorting with her maidservants. Penelope was despondent about her husband's absence, especially the mystery of his fate. He could come home at any time—or never. Temporising, she fended the suitors off for years, using stalling tactics that eventually began to wear thin. Meanwhile, Odysseus's mother, Anticlea, died of grief, and his father, Laërtes, was not far off the same end.
Odysseus arrived on Ithaca alone. Upon landing, he was disguised by Athena as an old man or beggar, and welcomed by his old swineherd, Eumaeus, who did not recognize him but nevertheless treated him well. His son, Telemachus, after returning from a year of searching for information about his father, was the first to know his father returned after Athena revealed Odysseus for who he was in front of him. Odysseus's faithful dog, Argos, was the second to recognize him. Aged and decrepit, the animal did its best to wag its tail, but Odysseus did not want to be found out and had to maintain his cover, so the weary dog died in peace. The second human to recognize him was his old wet nurse, Euryclea, who knew him well enough to see through his rags, recognising an old scar on his leg, received while hunting boar with Autolycus's sons.
Odysseus learned that Penelope had remained faithful to him, pretending to weave a burial shroud for his father, and claiming that she would only choose a suitor when she was finished. Every day she wove a length of shroud, and every night undid her work, until one day a maid betrayed her. The suitors demanded that she finally choose a new husband.
When Odysseus arrived at his house, disguised as a beggar, he sat in the hall, where he observed the suitors and was repeatedly humiliated by them. Presently, he went to Penelope and told her that he had met Odysseus, spinning a haughty tale about his bravery in battle. Penelope, still ignorant of the beggar's identity, began to cry. She went to the suitors and told them that whoever could string Odysseus's bow and shoot an arrow through twelve axe-handles would marry her. This was to Odysseus's advantage, as only he could string his bow. It is believed that his bow was a composite, requiring great skill and leverage to string, rather than brute strength. Penelope then announced what he, as the beggar, had told her.
The suitors each tried to string the bow, but their attempts were in vain. Odysseus then took it, strung it, lined up twelve axe-handles and shot an arrow through all twelve. Athena then took off his disguise, and, with the help of his son, Philoteus and Eumaeus, he slaughtered all the suitors. Antinous was the first to be slain, taking an arrow fired by Odysseus in the throat while drinking in the great hall. Odysseus used arrows first, but, when he eventually ran short, he killed the remaining suitors with spears. Caught by surprise and deprived of arms by Telemachus, the suitors at a distinct disadvantage, and were only able to arm themeselves after it was too late. When all the suitors were dead, justice was meted out to the goatherd Melanthius and the female servants, who had been helping the suitors.
Penelope, still not certain that the beggar was indeed her husband, tested him. She ordered her maid to make up Odysseus's bed and move it from their bedchamber into the hall outside his room. Odysseus was furious when he heard this because one of the bed posts was made from a living olive tree. He himself had designed it this way; it could not be moved unless by a god. He told her this, and, since only he and she knew of it, she accepted that he was indeed her husband. She came running to him, hoping that he would forgive her. He did, firstly because he could understand why she had tested him and secondly because he had passed the test.
To avenge the death of his son Antinous, Eupeithes tried to kill Odysseus. Laërtes killed him, and Athena thereafter required the suitors' families and Odysseus to make peace. Thus ends the story of the Odyssey.
Odysseus had been told (by the shade of Tiresias) that he had one more journey to make after he had re-established his rule in Ithaca.
Based on several astronomical events described in the Odyssey, some scientists have recently calculated that Odysseus returned home exactly on April 16, 1178 BC. Odysseus' return from Trojan War dated.
The article cannot be edited, thus I write here....
In the sentence Odysseus and Diomedes would later steal the Palladium that lay within Troy's walls, for the Greeks were told they could not sack the city without it. Some sources indicate that Odysseus schemed to kill his partner on the way back, but Diomedes thwarted this attempt. the word Palladium links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium but it should link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(mythology) instead. -- Präfekt Spleen (talk) 11:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I have a question about this line: "because Homer intended to compose the continuation of the story and wanted room for improvisation." as I am fairly sure that the Iliad and the Odyssey were oral traditions, not the product of one man.
This is a very controversial point, one that scholars do not agree upon and will probably never be cleared up.
see for example Bernard Knox' introduction to Robert Fagles' translation of the Odyssey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.71.182 (talk) 00:19, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Modern Odysseus stuff
There's this teletoon show named, Class of the Titans, which has a character, Odie, who, first, is a desendent of Odysseus, and one of the shows follows a close story of Odysseus. The Episode is called 'Odie-sey'. I was just wondering if it should be added or somthing. ;D Phantasmigorical02:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)Phantasmigorical
...and Odie is also the dog victimized by Garfield. How would one introduce the concept of relevance for the very first time? Quite a challenge. --Wetman13:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The French play by Jean Giraudoux "The Trojan war will not take place" (La guerre de Troie n'aura pas lieu) should be referenced as Ulysses is a major character in it
Some other modern appearances of Odysseus: He appears as a character in the SF series Riverworld by Philip Jose Farmer. Also, the British Neo-romantic composer Nicholas Maw wrote a symphony "The Odyssey" that was performed by the London Philharmonic and recorded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.71.182 (talk) 00:24, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Polyphemus - "another interpretation"
"In another interpretation, Odysseus knew that revealing his name would harm him; however his honor, or hubris compelled him to do so."
What interpretation is this talking about? There are countless stories of Odysseus lying about who he really is to people. I'm curious to see an interpretation where his "honor" prevented him. I commented it until someone includes the source of it. - Ravenous21:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Didn't his hubris cause Odysseus to tell Polyphemus his name?
I think that there is a mistake in the section of the article concerning the trick of Odysseus against Polyphemus.
Currently (24.7.2007) you can read in this section:
The trick of 'Nobody' however is more poignant in the original Greek. Because the other Cyclopes inquire about Polyphemus' condition by asking a direct question, in Greek the response must be made using the negative 'mē' rather than 'ou.' Thus Polyphemus responds "Mē-tis is killing me by force or treachery!" "Mētis" means 'skill,' 'cunning,' 'craft,' and 'knowledge' in Greek. This pun reveals the essential nature of Odysseus and 8th century Greek culture: skill and cunning are necessary for survival in a hostile world.
This is very interesting and stimulating, but unofortunately according to my sources not true. In the original Greek text, when asked by the other cyclops what's going on inside the cave, Polyphemus answers "ὦ φίλοι, Οὖτίς με κτείνει δόλῳ οὐδὲ βίηφιν." (Odissey, Book IX, Line 408 [2]). As you can see, there is no Me-tis reference, the "me" in the original text meaning "me" just like in English). So, I proceed to delete the previous not accurate lines and speculation. Of course I will be happy to change my mind, if someone can show the sources for the "Me-tis" conjecture. --Miles gloriosus09:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the previous is intended to be a conjectural replacement of Ου- for μη- in 408 and in each instance Odysseus used Οu-. However, that's celarly impossible, as 408 would then begin with a metrically impossible cretic. It is the cyclopes who reply with μητις - indicating they don't recognise Ου- as a name; they inadvertently provide the punchline of the μητις double entendre. --Nema Fakei11:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The outis/metis pun is a widely known chestnut among classical scholars. My college Greek professor told me about it, and it's mentioned in print a number of times. Ifnkovhg (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Other Stories/Modern needs clean-up
As noted back in 2007, the 'other stories/modern' section is now a list of random media that make reference to, or are inspired by, Odysseus. Could someone able to edit a protected article move it to a separate article or cut down drastically?
--Self-propelled (talk) 17:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this info should go here, in the Odessey article or in the Homer article. e.g. Homer may have based the character of Odysseus in the classic poem The Odyssey on a real individual based on recent discoveries in the town of Ithaca. I'm no expert on the subject so I'll leave it to others who are. Philg88contact 05:33, 12 December 2024 UTC[refresh]
Anyway Odysseus was king of Ithaca and according to the mythology he was resident of that palace (of course this is only assumption) so in a way that involve him. Morrisor (talk) 19:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
An archaeological site on Ithaca should be described at that article, with linked mention of Odysseus, of course, preferably in the archaeologist's own words, since Wikipedia is not making the connection (OR): "Whether this find has a connection with Ulysses or not is interesting up to a certain point, but more important is the discovery of the royal palace," sdaid one of the archaeologists. A parallel is the so-called "Palace of Nestor" at Pylos, in that instance a Mycenean palace-complex, centuries earlier than this one. The polished version of the Trojan War story we have is 8th century, but the events are recalled from the Bronze Age. Connecting the site with Odysseus gets us all buzzing, though. --Wetman (talk) 03:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Although not claiming to be Odysseus, the findings are definitve and the Ithicasinians need to be calmed.
This was actually discovered in 1992 and was excavated by archaelogist L. Kolonas, the tomb has a diameter of 6.80m and the largest and best preserved such tomb in western Greece. Included in the find are seals, pottery, golden jewelry, copper tools, also a broach described in the Iliad, given to Penelope by Odysseus before he went on his ten year crusade, can be found in the archaelogical museum in Argostoli. I have been going to the island for 16 years and not heard anything of this till late last year, I have just returned from there this year with not only pictures and video, but a booklet also. --[(User Rollo54)]11.10, 09 September 2010 Rollo54 (talk) 10:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
[3]Rollo54 (talk) 10:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Edit request from 62.218.164.126, 6 October 2010
{{edit semi-protected}}
Hello,
In the "Topics in Greek mythology" box, "Argonauts" redirect to "Golden Fleece". I suggest the link is to the article "Argonauts" itself.
Best wishes,
Antonis
62.218.164.126 (talk) 12:09, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I lived for several years in the Med and have always considered the route shown in "Odysseus Found" by the late Ernle Bradford to be the most likely reconstruction of the journey back to Ithaca.
Bradford sailed his own small boat in the Med for many years and was familier with most of the likely landfalls. Could his reconstruction map be reproduced in this article?
Such a map would probably be more suited to the Odyssey article. There is also the problem that there are many different reconstructions (not to mention various proposed locations for “Ithaca”), all of them very speculative, and a balanced treatment should at least survey them. It would be an interesting project to chart a number of the suggested routes on one map, though. Can you recommend any good online sources describing Bradford’s reconstruction, or others’?
Cyclops, if that’s the word you refer to, literally means “round-eyed” and was sometimes used as an epithet of the Moon and other goddesses. But in both Homer and Hesiod the Earth-born giants called Cyclopes are definitely one-eyed. —Odysseus1479 (talk) 05:10, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Removing spurrious information in "Iliad" section
Professor Adele Haft, in her essay Odysseus' Wrath and Grief in the "Iliad", observes that there might be more to Odysseus's nature than initially appears on the surface. Haft makes several observations that raise questions about the traditional approach to his character. Haft notes that Odysseus is the only other character besides Achilles to receive a verbal reprimand from Agamemnon.[17] There are repeated suggestions that Agamemnon and Odysseus's relationship is strained: it is not Agamemnon but Nestor who selects Odysseus for his every mission in the Iliad. Haft explains Odysseus's displays of wrath, as well as his strained relationship with Agamemnon, as indicators that Odysseus will ultimately be responsible for the sacking of Troy. Haft points to the death of Democoon in Book 4 as a prime example of the consequences of Odysseus's anger, for it results in a massive reduction of Trojan morale as well as a retreat. Haft goes on to suggest that Democoon's death, in conjunction with the death of Simoeisius, previses the destruction of Troy.[18]
I am removing is section because it is far too remote, specalized, and arbitrary to put in this particular article in this particular section — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dondoolee (talk • contribs) 07:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Questions and comments
1. "Odysseus and other envoys of Agamemnon then traveled to Scyros to recruit Achilles because of a prophecy that Troy could not be taken without him."
Is it just me or the grammar for this sentence does not look too good?
2. "It was later learned that the war could not be won without the poisonous arrows of Heracles, which were owned by the abandoned Philoctetes. Odysseus and Diomedes (or, according to some accounts, Odysseus and Neoptolemus) went out to retrieve them. Upon their arrival, Philoctetes (still suffering from the wound) was seen still to be enraged at the Danaans, especially Odysseus, for abandoning him. Although his first instinct was to shoot Odysseus, his anger was eventually diffused by Odysseus's persuasive powers and the influence of the gods. Odysseus returned to the Argive camp with Philoctetes and his arrows."
Why was Philoctetes abandoned? The information should be added.
What are the sources for the alternate accounts?
3. "Athena disguises Odysseus as a wandering beggar in order to learn how things stand in his household."
Should this appear before Odysseus meeting Telemachus?
4. "The Penelopiad by Margaret Atwood retells the story from the point of view of Penelope."
Hey, I think that you guys should redirect the link for "Calypso" directly to the article about her, instead of just the disambiguation page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.98.2.157 (talk) 03:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
I have another request: delete the painfully obvious "legen" fail at the very beginning of the page. I WOULD do it myself, but apparently some Wikipedia dictator/administrator decided to protect it... for whatever reason... 67.80.27.38 (talk) 23:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.
I came to came to check on this dictionary entry at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mentor:
"2. Mentor Greek Mythology Odysseus's trusted counselor, in whose guise Athena became the guardian and teacher of Telemachus."
But could find no mention of him in the original, despite Mentor being an entry on Wikipedia stating that "In his old age Mentor was a friend of Odysseus".
What I have found now is this:
"Mentor was a son of Alcimus and a friend of Odysseus, who, on quitting Ithaca, entrusted to him the care of his house. (Hom. Od. ii. 226, &c., xxii. 235.) Athena assumed his appearance when she conducted Telemachus to Pylos. (Od. ii. 269, 402, iii. 13, &c., iv. 654.) On Odysseus' return, Mentor assisted him in the contest with the suitors, and brought about a reconciliation between him and the people (xxii. 206, xxiv. 445, &c.)." from http://mythindex.com/greek-mythology/M/Mentor.html (and a fantastic synopsis of the story at: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Mentor4.html)
LookingGlass (talk) 03:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
etymology from Iman Wilkens
I know that many people find the ideas of Iman Wilkens exciting, but his book does not meet Wikipedia's standards for a reliable source. Therefore I have removed this text, as this etymology is not supported by scholarship:
As the Odyssey can be considered a story of Odysseus going through successive stages of initation, another possible meaning of his name could be derived of Οδος-Ζεύς: Odos-Zeus, meaning: "the path to God".[2]
If that's not a reliable source, how can this be?: Odysseus, who bears a name of non-Greek origin, [...] without any further explanation or source. This (Dihle) is the ref given for the statement Alternatively, it has been also suggested that this is of non-Greek origin and probably of non-Indo-European origin too, while it is of an unknown etymology. "Probably"? But at the same time "unknown"? There's always speculation,[4] but there should be a threshold for mentioning alternative views. What is the evidence for a non-IE origin, who supports it? --88.73.46.227 (talk) 10:02, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
File:Tunisia-4727 - Ulysses.jpg Mosaic does not depict Odysseus/Ulysses
As I was browsing some articles on Greek Mythology, I noticed that the Mosaic on the image mentioned is also present on the article of Dionysus, or Bacchus in Roman, albeit on a different image. Looking for the source of both images and the original mosaic that comes from the Bardo National Museum to know which article is right, I found the incredibly detailed french article here on wikipedia: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C3%A9e_national_du_Bardo_%28Tunisie%29
"Neptune and pirates from the same peristyle mosaic above. The theme is the punishment of pirates of the sea Tyrrhénienne, mixing Dionysian theme for marine themes more frequent. The god is standing ready to throw his spear, and sees a Bacchante supported by a Satyr and old Silenus holding the rudder of the ship ornate patterns tritons and dolphins, as well as a victory. A panther pounces on a member of the group of pirates who are transformed into dolphins when they recognize the divine nature of their opponent."
Anyone more versed in french may double check this part. From what I understand, the god depicted is Neptune (Poseidon in Greek), hence the name Neptune et les pirates, but the mosaic also presents Dyonisian themes like the Bachante, the panther and the Satyrs. The images on both cases might have some relevance to Dyonisus (though Dyonisus himself is not present in the mosaic), but no relevance whatsoever to Ulysses (or Odysseus).
I think I was able to even track where the misconception started:
On the flicker page where the image was post by its owner, a user comments on adding it to the article of this page and the english article of the Bardo National Museum.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22490717@N02/7864126884
Τhere has been going some sort of edit-warring during the past two months [5]. Please let me summarize what is going on here. When User:Wran thought they have found a dubious statement dressed up with a spurious citation ["his true lineage is always brought out in plays by the end"], they rushed into removing it [6] (a clumsy removal that left an orphan citation behind). Generally speaking, removing statements not supported by inline citations is legitimate (text–source integrity is explained on the policy documentation page "WP:INTEGRITY"). However, this is not exactly the case here.
(By the way, I have already tried to contact Wran on their talk-page [7]. The response could be described as trolling [8]. Not only did they decline to justify their persistent adulteration of content (confer also this), but they also engaged in frowned-upon tactics such as making reverts with no edit summaries,[9] making reverts with obscure edit summaries ("eliminated wild personal speculation"; "deleted personal subjective unwarranted remark"; "restored intelligible version")[10][11] and making personal attacks against fellow editors who asked Wran to justify their edits.[12])
Regarding the removed sentence: the article before Wran's undue tampering with citations had the following statement:
"his father is [[Laertes]]<ref>Homer does not link Laertes as one of the [[Argonauts]].</ref> and his mother [[Anticlea]], although there was a non-Homeric tradition<ref>[[Scholium]] on [[Sophocles]]' ''[[Aiax]]'' 190, noted in [[Karl Kerenyi]], ''The Heroes of the Greeks'' 1959:77.</ref> that [[Sisyphus]] was his true father, but that serves as an insult to his character. The rumor went that Laertes bought Odysseus from the conniving king <ref> "Philoctetes"</ref>. However, his true lineage is always brought out in plays by the end. <ref>"A so-called 'Homeric' drinking-cup shows pretty undisguisedly Sisyphos in the bed-chamber of his host's daughter, the arch-rogue sitting on the bed and the girl with her spindle." (Kerenyi, ''eo. loc.''.</ref>".
The Kerenyi1959 (p. 77) citation was initially provided on 30 January 2008 by User:Wetman. Now one can argue that there might be a more neutral / less garbled way to describe what this citation conveys (provided that we are to retain it of course). We could perhaps rephrase the controversial statement as follows: "However, his true lineage is eventually revealed in the play(s)" ('plays' here refers to Sophocles' Ajax and Sophocles' Philoctetes).
We could also add more precise citations to primary sources:
Spread by the powerful kings, // And by the child of the infamous Sisyphid line [κλέπτουσι μύθους οἱ μεγάλοι βασιλῆς // ἢ τᾶς ἀσώτου Σισυφιδᾶν γενεᾶς] —Chorus in Ajax 189–190; transl.R. C. Trevelyan.
Sold by his father Sisyphus [οὐδ᾽ οὑμπολητὸς Σισύφου Λαερτίῳ] —Philoctetes in Philoctetes 417; transl.Thomas Francklin
pretty much everything of significance you say here is false:
1.the removed statement was not so much dubious as incoherent and meaningless in its context, for there is no antecedent for "true lineage", nor any indication of what "plays" could possibly refer to.
2. the edit summaries you quote are more informative than most I've seen on wikipedia, certainly more so than yours in this context
3. the removal was anything but clumsy, and rather than "leaving an orphan citation behind", it put it where it more properly belongs(as was previously explained to and ignored by you); therefore removing the statement not supported by inline citations, exactly the case here, was legitimate. --Wran (talk) 20:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
The previous version quoted above was already "coherent" and "meaningful": 'true lineage' referred to 'his true father' and 'plays' referred to Aiax 190 and Philoctetes. What you should have done from the beginning was to find who provided the citation in the first place, read the original sources, restore text–source integrity, and then be explicit about your actions in your edit summaries. Your tendentious edit-warring was not constructive. Let me quote Wetman's version:
According to the Odyssey, his father is Laertes and his mother is Anticleia, although there was a tradition<ref>Scholium on [[Sophocles]]' ''[[Aiax]]'' 190, noted in [[Karl Kerenyi]], ''The Heroes of the Greeks'' 1959:77.</ref> that [[Sisyphus]] was his true father.<ref>"A so-called 'Homeric' drinking-cup shows pretty undisguisedly Sisyphos in the bed-chamber of his host's daughter, the arch-rogue sitting on the bed and the girl with her spindle." (Kerenyi, ''eo. loc.''.</ref>
The phrase 'the rumor went that Laertes bought Odysseus from the conniving king' did not exist in Wetman's version and this edit of yours was not a "correction" but a violation of text–source integrity. Neither the phrase 'However, his true lineage is always brought out in plays by the end' was in Wetman's original version but I retained it because there were already citations backing up the claim. --Omnipaedista (talk) 08:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
In order to avoid the dispute let us omit any reference to 'true lineage' and just add more precise citations to primary sources. --Omnipaedista (talk) 09:28, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Odysseus in modern literature
Just wondering could this article bear a section on Od. in literature from, say, Dante on? If so, is anyone interested in creating this? I could add some stuff on Dante, Joyce, Pound and so on. Filiocht 13:36, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)
For the benefit of the casual reader, let me fill in some background. I had added a reference to Manfredi's novel: "The Oracle" to the 'Other Stories' section, which begins: Odysseus is one of the most recurrent characters in Western culture. Within four hours, it had been removed by Paul August, who gave no explanation for his action. Behind the scenes, I asked August to either provide a clear explanation, under my Talk page entry (above), or restore my main-page entry. His response is the above one-liner, which may say as much about the way he felt when he got up as about "The Oracle". Perhaps, if and when he has read the complete story, we will receive a properly considered assessment. --DStanB (talk) 12:49, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
If we're going to apply policy here, we should rely on assessment by secondary sources - not by Wikipedia editors - to justify the inclusion of particular works in these "modern literature" sections. Actually, a good two-thirds of the works currently listed under that heading should probably be removed; we seem to be offering the reader a mere list of mentions and concordances for the name "Odysseus" - most should go. I agree with Paul that the notability and significance of Manfredi's "The Oracle" aren't shown. His Wikipedia article is referenced only to his personal website; and I've found no independent evaluations of this work by scholars in the field. Haploidavey (talk) 16:47, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Scholarly evaluations have their place, and are the bed-rock of formal sections of Wiki articles. But are they really essential in relation to peripheral, or incidental literary forms? Many Wiki articles have a "modern literature" section, or equivalent, that offers useful if often less-formal information on their respective topics. At times, I have found some of them extremely interesting and helpful. Consider that short introduction to 'Other stories' section of the Odysseus article: Odysseus is one of the most recurrent characters in Western culture. Elsewhere, a statement of this sort would require appropriate examples or citations. The section itself exists for the purpose of recording interesting examples. Need I say more? --DStanB (talk) 22:16, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
I don’t think it need be to a scholarly evaluation per se, but it would be good to have some sort of independent citation, perhaps a professional review, that describes the novel’s contribution to Odysseus’ profile in popular culture.—Odysseus147922:58, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Etymology
The etymology section in its present state [13] is a huge mess. Of the seven(!) footnotes ostensibly supporting the claim that "Many scholars say the name Odysseus derives from the verb odussomai", I cannot verify a single one that actually supports this claim. One of them (Silver) explicitly proposes a different etymology (although I'm not sure it's mainstream and reliable). Another (Powell), according to the apparent quotation used in the Google search string ("Of course the Greeks enjoyed false, often playful etymologies, e.g. Odysseus from odussomai") would appear to be explicitly denying the claim – but then, I cannot verify that that quotation occurs in the book either. In the others I cannot find anything relevant at all. The most recently added footnote makes the claim that oduromai and odussomai are akin with each other; that too is not supported by the sources in any way. Fut.Perf.☼07:48, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Do you even know what you wrote? That article contains nothing to support the claim that the name Odysseus is actually (etymologically) derived from odussomai. Because that's what you claimed in your edit. Another distorted reference. That article (a piece of literary criticism from 1956, nothing to do with the actual linguistics) is purely about the question of how Homer might have understood the meaning of "odussomai" as applied to Odysseus. It has nothing to do with where the name actually comes from historically. Fut.Perf.☼09:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't take an expert of linguistics to see the similarities of the name " Ὀδυσσεύς" and the word "ὀδύσσομαι" as used by Homer himself in ὀδύσαντο θεοί (Il. 6.138), ὠδύσαο, Ζεῦ (Od. 1.62). Who could possibly claim that Homer who composed 30,000+ verses was unaware of the similarities of the two words? ? It's not the word Ὀδυσσεύς which is of unknown etymology, if any, could be the word ὀδύσσομαι or ὀδύνη. --Odysses(○)11:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Oh dear. It shouldn't take an expert in linguistics to realize that superficial similarities between words are not necessarily evidence of etymological relationship. Ever heard of folk etymology? This is getting beyond ridiculous. I strongly recommend you do at least some basic reading in actual linguistics before you ever again touch anything related to names and etymologies in any article here. You have caused more than enough damage across the project already. Fut.Perf.☼11:48, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
The folk etymologies are significant to the literary analysis of the Odyssey, since Homer seems to make several plays on odussomai and oduromai. I'm not sure they're significant enough to include in a well-developed article on the Odyssey. I also don't know whether it's significant enough to include here, since this article isn't limited to Homer, and I don't know if other authors are interested in folk etymologizing Odysseus' name. --Akhilleus (talk) 12:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Treatment of Homeric wordplay should probably be done at Odyssey (or Iliad) rather than in the Etymology section here. As for the etymology itself, I note Liddell & Scott is careful to characterize the origin from odyssomai as “mythic“. IMO the theory is worth mentioning, though, for its antiquity if not for its validity, among any other proposals with support in current scholarship.—Odysseus147900:49, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
"The mythic origin of the name" would be a much better alternative for the section regarding the name of Odysseus. --Odysses(○)20:52, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Just in case it's not clear, there should be a strict distinction between actual and folk etymologies, and I agree with Fut. Perf.'s edits. --Akhilleus (talk) 12:45, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Akhilleus, I agree with you in the part as to "whether it's significant enough to include [etymologies] here". Most probably it's not – it doesn't add any value to this article. Just for the record etymology part was added in the first place by an IP user back in 2006. I only tried (probably unsuccessfully) to amend it. When editing, I do have in mind that other users read the article and should be able to obtain some reliable and useful information out of it. In my opinion it's not appropriate to confuse readers of Greek mythology articles with 19th-century academic terms like Volksetymologie (or folk etymology in English). Perhaps a plain phrase "according to a legend" would do nicely. --Odysses(○)21:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
New Greek discovery: confirmed?
I just read an article claiming that the tomb of Odysseus has been found. See [[16]]
How can someone prova that it's Odysseus tomb and not someone other's one?
See new discovery, below.
Odysseus during the Trojan War
This seems to be entirely missing. It says he is a major character in the Iliad so there should be something said about what he was doing during the Trojan War especially since he had the idea for the Trojan Horse.
If you bother to read the Illiad, he was not to come up with the idea of the horse, Athena told a priest who told Agamemnon. You are quoting from the movie which is only halfway the same as the epic. For one, Helen did not love Paris. 216.237.232.59 (talk) 22:05, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
^King Alcinous in Odyssey, Book 7, 320–326, describes how the Pheacians carried Rhadamanthus from Scheria to Euboea, "which is the furthest of any place" and came back on the same day.
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Not done: That seems reasonable to me. The link is part of a template which is not protected, template:greek myth, so you can make this change without using an edit request. Celestra (talk) 15:27, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
