Talk:Nong Quanfu

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

RM, Nung Ton Phuc → Nùng Tồn Phúc, moved, 3 June 2013, discussion
RM, Nùng Tồn Phúc → Nong Quanfu, moved, 30 April 2018, discussion

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mac Tuyen Tong which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. See enough support in this discussion to rename this article to the proposed Chinese spelling. Since one editor noted, "Most books written about this figure use Chinese pinyin name," which appears to use the diacritical marks, Nóng Quánfú, there is no prejudice toward a new requested move to that title if reliable English sources typically use the diacritics. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (closed by page mover) Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 00:49, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nùng Tồn Phúc → Nong Quanfu – more commonly used in publications Gustmeister (talk) 20:23, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). — Amakuru (talk) 21:28, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I don't know enough about this topic to be sure that it's correct to move it. The Vietnamese article is at vi:Nùng Tồn Phúc, and there don't seem to be many Google hits either way. @In ictu oculi: you created this article, what do you think? — Amakuru (talk) 21:28, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Amakuru:I know about this topic. Most books written about this figure use Chinese pinyin name. The reason why the Vietnamese name Nung Ton Phuc for this figure appears to get more Google hits is because of the book titled the rebel Den of Nung Tri Cao [1] by James Anderson, which employs Vietnamese name system instead of Chinese. But besides Anderson's book and historical books written by Vietnamese authors, international publications employ Chinese name Nong Quanfu. Occasionally, one would encounter the name Nong Quanfu being accompanied by its equivalent in Vietnamese, Nung Ton Phuc, in brackets. Gustmeister (talk) 21:58, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Amakuru:Moreover, his son name is written in Chinese pinyin, Nong Zhigao. There should be a convention in writing names of historical figures in this cross-border area, i.e. Sino-Vietnamese border zone, based on the most commonly used system. For the name Nong Zhigao, Chinese pinyin is more popularly used than Vietnamese name, Nung Tri Cao, despite the popular book authored by James Anderson.Gustmeister (talk) 22:04, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Neither Nùng Tồn Phúc nor Nong Quanfu charts on Google Ngram, but Nong Zhigao is more common than Nùng Trí Cao in English-language books per [2]. Since both father and son were from the same Jimi prefecture astride the modern Chinese-Vietnamese border, WP:CONSISTENCY is a good idea. However, the father was probably more relevant to Vietnamese history and in fact died in Thăng Long or modern Hanoi. In order to avoid pointless edit warring between Vietnamese and Chinese nationalists (especially those who are not ethnic Zhuang/Nùng/Tày), Nungz Cienzfuk and Nungz Ciqgaoh are in my opinion good compromises, since they were almost undoubtedly Zhuang/Nùng/Tày. But then Latin romanization of Zhuang languages seems to be quite uncommon and I'm not sure how large the dialectical differences are. Timmyshin (talk) 16:48, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this individual's Chinese name is in doubt: Chinese sources called him Nong Quanfu/Nùng Toàn Phúc 儂全福, while Vietnamese sources called him Nong Cunfu/Nùng Tồn Phúc 儂存福. 全 and 存 have identical pronunciations in modern Cantonese (at least Standard Cantonese, not sure about the Guangxi variant), but not in modern Mandarin or modern Vietnamese. Perhaps he was illiterate (or semi-literate), as were his advisors. This makes me think that the best solution is to not use Pinyin or Vietnamese, but his native language (Zhuang). Timmyshin (talk) 17:40, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support - their isn't much English-language literature to establish his common name, but it makes sense to maintain consistency with his much more famous son, whose name is predominantly rendered as "Nong Zhigao" in English, as shown by Timmyshin's ngram. The problem with the Zhuang name is that it's almost never used by English sources. -Zanhe (talk) 18:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Image of Nông-trí-Cao's father Nông-tồn-Phúc among his clansmen and followers.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:13, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]