Talk:Moravian Church/Archive 1

Archive 1

Clean Need

The article starting with references like: "The original attempt to found a Moravian community was in Georgia, but that attempt failed. The Moravians later found a home in Pennsylvania, where the colony provided some of the greatest religious freedom to be found in the world."

Means to mind that this needs a lot of TLC and polish. I don't know if the use of Moravian Church is US-Centric, but the arty certainly implies that when starting this way. As such, I'm placing a Clean template HERE, so someone in the historical corp can check into this and apply some much needed rewriting and organization to the article so that it is arranged and flows more professionally.

FrankB 19:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

• I guess that without primary reading of your comments I seem to have performed some of the tasks you urge us to do. I notice now I have still left out the missionary activities of the Moravians. The clean needed-sign is still present, and it is up to you to see if the article is now fit for removal of this sign! Draconarius 23:57, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

• • I have now added information on the missionary activities. I suppose the cleanup called for has now more or less been performed~. Draconarius 07:53, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Pietism

I think that we need a clearer break between the ancient Unitas Fratrum and the Renewed Church that Zinzendorf established on his estate in 1725-28. Zinzendorf's Moravians, who contemporary Moravians descend from, were distinctly Pietist. Z's grandmother was friends with Philip Jacob Spener, and Z himself attended August Hermann Francke's school at Halle.

It would also be helpful to describe in a bit more detail Zinzendorf's role in the shaping of the Renewer Church after 1728, as he was in many ways was (and remains) the central figure in the history of this Chrisitian denomination.

These notes on pietism make good sense to me. I wonder why you did not already put in some of these remarks. By the way, you did not sign your contribution. Do not be afraid to sign using the four tildes! Draconarius 21:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Historic episcopate

Does the Moravian Church claim apostolic succecssion? Carolynparrishfan 23:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

• In response to Merging Lovefeast into the Moravian Church arty- NO, the lovefeast may have originated therein, but is used by other denominations as well. No Brainer... except to the culturally insensative! FrankB 18:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

• They do and they don't. They do claim that their episcopate is descended historically from the episcopates of other churches through the Waldensian (formerly Catholic) bishops who consecrated their first bishops in 1467. However, an unbroken succession of bishops from the time of the apostles doesn't have the same importance for Moravians that it does for, say, Roman Catholics or Greek Orthodox. The episcopate is more a symbol of unity than a vessel of authority or authenticity. While bishops perform all ordinations, they don't hold the same authority as they do in other churches. They aren't elected to administer any particular territory, don't make assignments of clergy, and don't even make unilateral decisions about whom to ordain. They do have a duty to advise other pastors, but their advice isn't binding. Moravian bishops are more like senior, respected pastors than like Catholic bishops. WilliamBarrett 05:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Moravians are communists?

I heard those Moravian communities also have a pretty unique system of society with a lot of communal property and people that can work just as much as they want to, can anyone tell something about that maybe? --62.251.90.73 00:25, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, do tell. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 20:33, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

seeing that most Moravians in North America are upper class suburbanites, I doubt communist would be an accurate description. They are pretty communal, for the most part, but that's a completely different term.

...not upper class middle class. In Emmaus and Bethlehem, they live pretty much like everybody else. They are not communal at all, and have not been for well over 100 years. The church owns its sanctuaries and parsonages, no farms or factories. In the eighteenth and nineteenth century, the church owned the means of production, and all of the housing, you were assigned a job and a spot to live by the church leaders. So Communism would have been a good description, though very different form Marxism/Lenninism. No athiestic communist party, no gulags. They had no ideology of world domination, so you were free to leave if you wanted to. But you had to follow the rules, or you would be put out of the community.

The Moravians were communal, not communist - yes. All land was owned by the church and it determined what was built (or who lived) on each lot. Outsiders ("strangers") were generally not allowed to freely live in a settlement, though exceptions were sometimes made.

Young Moravian children (of both sexes) received mandatory education from the church.

The congregation was split socially into "choirs" based on sex and status - Married People, Single Brothers, Single Sisters, Widowers, Widows, and Young children (the number and types varies a bit depending of the congregation, but this was generally the form). Some choirs - the Single Brothers and Single Sisters, notably - would eat, worship, and live separately. This social division even applied in death, as the choir system was used in God's Acre (the Moravian cemetary) to determine where you were buried. -- 24.148.249.55 20:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned and Well Done Draconarius!

Moravians (religion)

From User Talk:fabartus Hi,

You posted a {{cleanup-date}} message on this article: Moravians (religion). If you feel that it has been satisfactorily cleaned, could you please remove the notice?

Thanks, Andrewjuren 07:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Sorry 'bout the delay removing the Clean - I was traveling near continually until this month. IMHO, esp. given the deficiency noted above, one of you guys was better placed to remove the tag... with a word to my talk as notification. But thanks for the courtesy.

FrankB 16:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Hussites?

The article needs work. The contemporary Moravian church owes more to The Franke/Spener school of German Pietism channeled through the charismatic Count Zinzendorf than it does to Huss. The article doesn't adhere to the usual historiography of the Moravian Church, and doesn't mention the church's groundbreaking very early (began in late 1730's) mission work to North America, Greenland, Sri Lanka, and so on. Also, something about the communal organization of early (1738-1760's) Moravian communities needs to be added. Also, how about getting their logo up here?

yes, current Moravian church is more Pietistic than Hussite, but still I found description of the origin of the movement so lacking that it is almost funny---it looks like Hus's movement peacefully grew up with some usual level of opposition:

The movement gained royal support and a certain independence for a while, even spreading across the border into Poland, but was eventually forced to be subject to the governance of Rome.

So, the beginning of the article should be IMHO either slightly extended, or at least link to Hussitism should be included.

--Ceplm 13:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

As a Moravian I agree, our roots are very deeply in the Lutheran Pietist soil, BUT The first Moravian exiles, i.e. exiles from the March of Moravia, to come to the estate of Zinzendorf with a view to reviving the old Bohemian Brethren's Church were the "Five Churchmen" who arrived in May, 1724; John Toeltschig and four of them all named David Nitschmann, one of whom would receive episcopal ordination in 1735 from the last surviving bishop of the old Unitas Fratrum. So they SAW themselves as continuing the traditions of the old Bohemian Brethren, even ecclesiastically, sometimes in spite of Zinzendorf who wanted to keep them within the Saxon Lutheran Church. But Zinzendorf himself in 1727 discovered the Ratio Disciplinae of John Amos Comenius, the Moravian bishop who preserved the episcopacy, and was amazed at how closely it resembled the Statutes of Herrnhut, the "Brotherly Agreement" adopted on 12 May 1727. The English Parliament recognized the Moravian Church as "An Ancient Protestant Episcopal Church"'Bold text' in 1749 on the basis of this relationship to the old Brethren's Church: the episcopacy and the church order.

Moravians or Moravian Brethren

Moravia is a region in today's Czech Republic. The term "Moravians" primarily means the inhabitants of that region. It seems rather odd to refer to the Moravian Brethern as "Moravians." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.83.78.91 (talk) 04:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

The members of the Renewed Unitas Fratrum are called "Moravians" because the first exiles who came to Zinzendorf's estate from what is now the Czech Republic and founded Herrnhut were indeed German speaking folks from the March of Moravia. "Moravian" is a convenient nickname, like "Methodists" or "Quakers" that has subsequently become taken up by the members of the Church. In German we are called "Herrnhuters" from our Mother Congregation in Saxony, in English speaking countries we are called "Moravians" to distinguish us from the zillions of other "Brethren" denominations, but there is never any doubt among us that we are all "Brethren and Sisters". It is interesting that the earliest name for our fellowship back in 1457 was "Brethren and Sisters of the Law of Christ" Try putting that on your church bulletin board. Pastor R

Here in Winston-Salem, they're mostly called "Moravians" though. I hardly ever hear "Moravian Brethern" unless its something official. Besides the churches are most commonly named "Something Moravian Church". It's all disabiguated, so I don't see a problem with it. --TinMan 04:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Same in Bethlehem and Emmaus. They are known as the Moravians.

Who was Kruger?

He is mentioned once in the article in "Kruger's introduction of deviant Christological teaching was claimed by him to be the only teaching of the godhead that the Jews would ever accept". Could this be expanded, or replaced with a hyperlink? JBel 08:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Johann Sigismund Krüger was a brilliant lawyer who had been in service to Zinzendorf's in-laws in Ebersdorf in what is now Thuringia. In Zinzendorf's absence from Herrnhut in August 1726 he came to Herrnhut with a great show of holiness and zeal and briefly duped Christian David and others into following him. As Krüger's pronouncements became more and more extreme it was clear that he was unbalanced. He was removed to an asylum in Berlin where he subsequently died. J Taylor & Kenneth G Hamilton's History of the Moravian Church, pp.30-31 Pastor R.

Major edit

Undertaken as an attempt to restructure the article so as to properly reflect the global reach of the church and its unique heritage. No existing information has been deleted but much has be added and the existing information has been reorganised and edited, with some of it being moved into sub-pages for detailed/specialist topics. In particular, all US specific details (see previous heading) have been moved to a new page American Provinces of the Moravian Church. An equivalent British article also now exists. Others will be added in due course. -Arb. 17:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to rename this article

A proposal to rename this article has been made at Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Uncontroversial_proposals -Arb. 12:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC).

Moravian arch redirects here. What is a Moravian arch?

Moravian arch redirects here. What is a Moravian arch? Anthony Appleyard 13:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It's described in American_Provinces_of_the_Moravian_Church#Architecture. Have changed the redirect. -Arb. 11:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

So, um, what do they believe?

The article doesn't say a word that I could find about present-day Moravian beliefs, and only a little about historical ones. I know the Moravians are Christian, but aside from that, it would be sort of nice if an article on a religion told the reader what the religion's teachings were.

Thanks for pointing this out. This omission was corrected by a Moravian clergyman, Pastor R.

There is a request for citations in this section I supplied, but sadly, I'm just a poor country preacher and don't know how to do that. Can someone help me? The Barmen Declaration is cited in the 1957 "Ground of the Unity". The "Essentials" of th Faith are from JS Groenfeldt's "Becoming a Momember of the MOravian Chruch" and the statemenet about the Real Presence in the Holy COmmunion is from the "Easter Morning Litany", a statement of Faith, as well as the Small Catechism. Pastor R. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.151.9.30 (talk) 12:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Name in German: BrüdergemeiNE, no "D"

Please note that in German the name of the Moravian Church is the Herrnhuter Brüdergemeine with no "d". The use of the archaic form Gemeine for Community or Congregation instead of the modern Gemeinde is restricted in German to the Moravian Church. There are actually religious groups in Württemberg Pietism called Brüdergemeinde:Korntal near Stuttgart and Wilhemsdorf near Lake Constance. Founded by the Pietists and patterned after the Herrnhut communities they are none the less not related to the Moravian Church at all. Again Brüdergemeine means the Moravian Church or one of its individual Congregations, Brüdergemeinde is an error when referring to Moravians and refers to the two Pietist groups in Württemberg. 70.242.159.29 (talk) 16:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)Pastor R

Fair use rationale for Image:MSeal2.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 12:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Westwood Moravian Church

Hi all, just making you aware of this new article. Input welcome. --Jza84 |  Talk  22:41, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Universalist beliefs

This article is in the category "Christian groups with universalist beliefs." I have never heard that the Moravian Church holds to universalist beliefs and given their confessions I doubt this is true. Without substantiation of this in the article, I'm going to remove it from this category.--S Roper (talk) 22:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

?Moravian Accomplishments and Important People?

QUESTION: Are there any major Moravian accomplishments. Are there some important Moravian people; what did they do?

The Moravian Church is the oldest Protestant Church (1457), it produced the first church hymnal (1501), Moravians publish the oldest and most widely used daily devotional guide in the world (1728), the Moravians were the first church to send out Protestant missionaries (1732), reaching every known continent within the first 30 years. Bishop John Amos Comenius, the "Father of Modern Education" is probably the best known Moravian, Count NIcolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf is the other.70.243.143.180 (talk) 16:10, 20 November 2009 (UTC)PastorR Plus they started the first schools for girls in the USofA, in Bethlehem,PA (1742) and Salem, NC (1772)

BY: KELLI2L —Preceding unsigned comment added by KELLI2L (talk • contribs) 14:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Moravian accomplishments?

Are there any major Moravian accomplishments; and/or any well-know Moravian people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by KELLI2L (talk • contribs) 14:12, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Other than beginning the Protestant Missionary Movement, developing the concept of Ecumenism, starting the first schools for girls in America and and having the first municipal water works in PA and NC? I'm sure there are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.243.153.114 (talk) 15:49, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Here are some accomplishments that may have been overlooked:

• Founding Bethlehem, PA
• Missions to North American indigenous people (incl. Mahicans, first native Christian congregation)

Bethlehem, PA#History happens to contain an irrelevant paragraph about the Moravian's work in New York which really belongs here; but when I came here I noticed a funny thing: it doesn't seem to mention Bethlehem or North America at all! Can someone please add "expanding the History section to include [above]", to the to-do list? Thanks so much. JustinTime55 (talk) 14:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Article needs more

Greenland. Just sayin'. — LlywelynII 15:18, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

District Conferences need a mention

I removed this from the "Districts" section of the main article for discussion here: District Conferences need a mention Sperril (talk) 23:41, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Unitas Fratrum/Moravian Church

There is a problem both in the article on the Unitas Fratrum and the Moravian Church (as well as their mentions in the page on the Protestant Reformation). They both state that the movement started with Jan Hus. This is in error. The Moravian Church and the Unitas Fratrum both originated with Nikolaus Ludwig, Graf von Zinzendorf und Pottendorf in the 1700s. The church that followed Jan Hus (the Hussites) later split in many directions: the Ultraquists (or Calixtines), the Bohemian Brethren, the Unity of the Brethren, the Czechoslovak Hussite Church, and the Taborites.

These need to be changed ASAP.

Thank you, Dgljr5121973 (talk) 22:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Zinzendorf did not start the Moravian church. He was involved in helping to establish what was called The *Renewed* Moravian Church. The Moravians that came out of Bohemia and Moravia in the early 1700s were descendents (some later historians dispute this, but they viewed themselves as that at that time) of the earlier Unitas Fratrum that had officially formed under Gregory "the Patriarch" in 1457. This is considered to be a movement that had it origins with the Hussite reforms that had been stirring in the decades before the 1457 beginnings. When the 30 Years War swept through Europe in the early 1600s, the Unitas Fratrum was forced into exile and underground. In Moravia they were considered extinct officially, but some people secretly held to their teachings while outwardly conforming to the Catholic or Calixtine churches. For about a century they continued this way until there was sort of a revival in the early 1700s and these "revived" men and women sought for religious liberty and moved into German territories. The ones that ended up on Zinzendorf's estates then formed themselves into The Renewed Moravian Church. Thus their claim to being descendents of the Hussite revival. Mikeatnip (talk) 23:22, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

However, there is no association with the Hussites. The Unitas Fratrum had (and has) no connection with any of the Hussites or their descendants (the Bohemian Brethren, etc.). They did not keep any of the tenants of Hus except for Communion in both kinds. See the article on Hussites and you will better understand. And as far as history records, Zinzendorf did in fact found the Moravian Church. Dgljr5121973 (talk) 04:25, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps we are dealing with a different group. When I speak of the Unitas Fratrum, I am referring to the group that formed with Gregory the Patriarch in 1457. They used that Latin name for themselves. In Czech I believe it was Jednota Bratska (spelling?), and in English it is often tranlated as Unity of Brothers or Unity of the Brethren. Some people refer to this group as "The Bohemian Brethren." You are correct in that there was no "official" connection to the Hussite groups, neither the Calixtines nor the Taborites. However, unofficially it is pretty evident that the religious stirrings that Huss was involved in had a play in the formation of the Unitas Fratrum of 1457. As far as I know, Gregory's group never used the name (nor was it ever called that by others of the time period) "Moravian Brethren," so in that you are also correct. However, when Zinzendorf and the refugees from Moravia and Bohemian came together, they sought ordination from the remaining Unitas Fratrum bishop. That was the connection I was referring to, and why the Renewed Moravian Brethren Church connects itself to the Unitas Fratrum.

Perhaps you are referring to another group in Texas that also uses the name Unitas Fratrum. Of that group, and how it fits into the scheme in relation to the Renewed Moravian Church, I am not up to par on. The multitude of names for the same group/movement does get confusing. Mikeatnip (talk) 16:47, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, I apologize for the misunderstanding. The Taborites (the name of the more radical Hussites) identified itself more boldly with the doctrines of John Wycliffe, sharing his passionate hatred of the monastic clergy, and his desire to return the Church to its supposed condition during the time of the apostles. This required the removal of the existing hierarchy and the secularisation of ecclesiastical possessions. The radicals preached the "sufficientia legis Christi"—the divine law (i.e. the Bible) is the sole rule and canon for human society, not only in the church, but also in political and civil matters. They rejected therefore, as early as 1416, everything that they believed had no basis in the Bible, such as the veneration of saints and images, fasts, superfluous holidays, the oath, intercession for the dead, auricular Confession, indulgences, the sacraments of Confirmation and the Anointing of the Sick; they admitted laymen and women to the preacher's office, and chose their own priests. But above all they clung to Wycliffe's doctrine of the Lord's Supper, denying transubstantiation. After the Compacta of Prague (30 November 1433), most of the Taborites went to the Ultraquist party, the rest joined the "Brothers of the Law of Christ". To this group was added further members from the Ultraquist party that did not support Luther's reform movement. As to the statement about the Renewed Moravian Church, here is what the Hussite article states about that: A settlement of hussites in Herrnhut, Germany, in 1727 caused the emergence of the Moravian Church. Nothing here about a Renewal, rather an emergence (first appearance). Dgljr5121973 (talk) 07:00, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

The Hussite article should probably be clarified. Zinzendorf and the refugees called themselves, in their early official documents, The Renewed Moravian Church. I believe the German word is "erneuent" (something like that, I dont remember how it is spelled exactly, my German is weak.). I dont have time at the moment to go back to the sources and make the changes with the appropriate citations.

One thing I have noticed is that some modern Moravian historians seem to want to link their group to Huss, but skip Chelcicky. In my mind, Chelcicky was more of the founder of the Unitas Fratrum (earlier called "Brothers in the law of Christ"--Fratum Legis Christi or something like that in Latin) than Huss. Chelcicky taught, for example, non-resistance, which Huss did not. And the abolition of the three-tiered society. He was even more radical than the Taborites, and Gregory and the original founders of the Unitas Fratrum looked to Chelcicky's writings very strongly in the first decades. Anyways, the different names cause confusion, some of them more official names, some of them unofficial. The articles could use some work, that is for sure. Mikeatnip (talk) 03:01, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's one item that might help (from the Moravian Church in North America's website, under "History"):

The Moravian Church, or Unitas Fratrum (Unity of Brethren), as it has been officially known since 1457, arose as followers of Hus gathered in the village of Kunvald, about 100 miles east of Prague, in eastern Bohemia, and organized the church.

It clearly points to an origin not even remotely connected with the true doctrine of Hus (that was still centered around Prague). Not to argue, just to edify.

Dgljr5121973 (talk) 19:53, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

List of Bishops

I recently compiled a list of all the bishops of the church from its founding to the present. What would be the most effective way to post this? I was thinking of just doing a table. Twbaucom (talk) 21:11, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I like it, whatever it is. MaynardClark (talk) 21:28, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Easiest way to convert a .doc table to wiki format? Surely there is something automated! Twbaucom (talk) 22:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Blessing of same-sex unions in Christian churches

In 2014, Moravian church in europe allowed Blessing of same-sex unions.

• Idea: Brüder-Unität, Künftig sind Homo-Segnungen möglich (German)

Molindater (talk) 19:29, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Eucharist

This article claims that the Moravian Church affirms the Real Presence, but a page from the Moravian Theological Seminary claims that Moravians reject it. Who is right? --RisingSunWiki 21:30, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I corrected the article. --RisingSunWiki 15:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

The Moravian Church does believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper, see the Moravian Easter Morning Litany: "In this Communion of Saints my faith is placed upon my Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for me and shed His Blood on the Cross for the Remission of sin, and Who has granted unto me His Body and Blood in the Lord's Supper as a pledge of Grace." What the Moravian Church does not do is to try and define the "Mode" of the Real Presence, "how" Christ is Present. The Easter Morning Litany is the authoritative declaration of faith, not a blurb from the Theological seminary2602:306:BCC5:1050:28AE:3A61:C596:E9D7 (talk) 15:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)Pastor R.

Here is a quote from the Diary of the Lititz [Pennsylvania, USA] Moravian Church from August 29, 1773: "On Sunday the 29th the Single Brethren’s Choir observed their Choir Festival with blessing in all the services, the festival was closed with the enjoyment of the Corpse and Blood of our Lord in the Holy Sacrament." 2602:306:C492:CC10:84A1:A714:8E09:E965 (talk) 19:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)Pastor R.

First Protestants?

I am not convinced that the Moravians can be called the "first Protestants." Certainly the Waldensians are much older (1179), and the Lollards are older too. Also, this article points to the Eastern Orthodox Church, which was separated from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054. The claim requires more substantiation than has been given—certainly the citation of books written by Moravians (however good) cannot meet the NPOV criteria. If "Protestant" simply means Christian groups who reject some claims made by Roman Catholicism, the idea that the Moravians were the first is obviously false. So what is needed is a non-equivocal definition of the term, or to drop the claim of "first" in the article. It might be more accurate to call them the "first Protestant denomination," but that doesn't work if we consider the Eastern or Oriental churches to be denominations. This part of the article is badly in need of clarification. — Aolrnin (talk) 20:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Protestants v Eastern Orthodox

I think it's anachronistic to describe the Orthodox as Protestant. The Orthodox regarded the Western Church as schismatic because of its addition of the filioque to the Nicene Creed. More generally, the East did not take so severe a view of the Fall as the Western Church had done under Augustine of Hippo. So there was a moving apart of the Eastern and Western traditions. The word Protestant is generally used to signify churches set up in protest against features of Western Catholicism after the Great Schism. Whether the Moravian Church can claim to be the oldest Protestant church presumably depends on whether Western medieval schismatic groups such as the Waldensians had and have retained an organised ecclesial form since then. Westwood lad (talk) 21:40, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not anachronistic. It's just wrong. Cheers. — LlywelynII 15:18, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I think generally people say that Protestantism began with Luther, and the Anabaptists, Hutterites, etc, who predated him were not strictly Protestant. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 18:54, 27 November 2017 (UTC)