Talk:Lilí Álvarez

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion concerning this article

A discussion that may affect the name or title of this article is ongoing here. Please voice any opinions or concerns on that page. After the discussion concludes, this article may be moved to a different title, in accordance with Wikipedia's Naming Conventions. Thank you. Tennis expert (talk) 19:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I could not verify the preferred spelling of this athlete's name in the English-speaking world. She has no profile on the WTA website; on Wimbledon's website, her 3 consecutive appearences in the womens' final are credited as "E.M. de Alvarez". I cannot use that to move the article to "Lili de Alvarez", because it provides no verification that the moniker "Lili" is preferred, with or without diacritics, and I can't make a partially backed move to "Lilí de Alvarez" (since the last name without diacritics can be verified), because such a mixed rendering cannot itself be verified.
That being the case, this article will stay where it is for the time being. If someone knows of any instance that can provide verification of a preferred spelling in English, please inform it here, so that we can move the article accordingly. Redux (talk) 15:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The following books in English use "Lili de Alvarez": (1) Hollander, Zander; Collins, Bud (1994). Bud Collins' Modern Encyclopedia of Tennis. Detroit, MI: Visible Ink Press. pp. 42, 464. ISBN 0-8103-9443-X.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) (2) Starr, Cynthia; King, Billie Jean (1988). We Have Come a Long Way: The Story of Women's Tennis. New York: McGraw-Hill. pp. 24, 40, 42. ISBN 0-07-034625-9.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Those books are reliable enough to justify the move, in my opinion. Tennis expert (talk) 17:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The International Tennis Hall of Fame also uses "Lili de Alvarez". Tennis expert (talk) 18:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I was going to move the article, but you beat me to the punch. :) Redux (talk) 19:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Countess Valdène?

There is a claim that she was also known as "Countess Valdène (spelled that way). That's cool, but the source (which I had added) I realized doesn't spell it as Countess Valdène but rather as Countess Valdene. We need a proper source for the foreign spelling to fit well with the article otherwise we'd need to have it as Countess Valdene or simply not have it at all since it's pretty trivial. In googling "countess" I read that the wife of a count is not always a countess. Help us find a source for the term "Countess Valdène." Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Fyunck, as far as wanting to mispell a French name, I think that would be putting you beyond your normal levels of disruption. Her husband is there at Jean de Gaillard de la Valdène, end of that discussion.

As far as the wife of a count is not always a countess (?), the second wife bore the title, why shouldn't the first: Réalités Numéros 252 à 257 1967 "Ainsi, il a un excellent alibi pour ne sélectionner que les meilleurs parmi les « yearlings » qui lui sont proposés par ses principaux propriétaires : Mme Couturié, Mme Widener, la comtesse de la Valdène, M. Ternynck. Pour les turfistes, Pollet" 08:04, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The source (which I found but not for spelling purposes; English news sources never should be used for that) misspells senorita as well, so we shouldn't rely on that when it comes to accents. BUT it claims she was countess so we don't need to further search for that. And if we can all agree that she was married to a French noble who lived in France (paid taxes there so to say) and that the wife of Jean-Baptiste de Villèle is Mrs. de Villèle or Madame de Villèle and the wife of Melchior de Vogüé is Mrs. or Madame de Vogüé, which is the trivial thing here (and doesn't need to be sourced as any Mrs. names shouldn't) than we are fine. If not we can still ask more seasoned editors who are more familiar with the French history and name variations (apart from me). For the record I'm getting tired that it's always up to me to find sources: 1. when a false claim is put into the article and needs to be put in proper place, 2. when an info not added by me is need to be sourced, 3. and when I found a source for that trivial info after a 10 second Google search and it has been misused. And in the mean time the article isn't improving. One week ago I started to add valuable infos, refs to existing infos, a photo(!), categories, but for a week I'm battling with meaningless name issues. Is it really the direction we want to go? Lajbi ^{Holla @ me • CP} 13:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I see no mispelling of "senorita"... that's the way I learned it in English too. And mrs. doesn't work very well as an example...do we use Mrs so-and-so as an alternate recognition in wikipedia articles? Maybe we do, I just can't recall any articles. Now, you had put the line in the notes so I thought you would source it. This article after discussion in 2008 was happily sitting at "Lili de Alvarez" until you moved it without discussion. I had thought of challenging it but didn't feel like another fight as long as we keep all versions of her spelled name her up front. You wouldn't have that and instead forced a spelling into a "notes" section. You get tired of adding sources and I get tired of seeing spellings wiped out and getting attacked from untruthful editors (not you). That's wikipedia for you and we have to deal with it. You found a source in google for Countess Valdene but not a source for Countess Valdène. You are correct in that you did not add the phrase "(she) played for three years on the international tennis circuit as "Countess Valdene." It should have been sourced when added. But you changed it to "(she) played for three years on the international tennis circuit as "Countess Valdène", and from what I could find that is not the spelling she used in tennis. So I asked nicely here if someone could verify that it was also spelled as "Countess Valdène" on the tennis circuit so we can have an accurate source added. That's it. So no big fight in the long-standing article name being moved with no RM, no big fight in the moving of her most used English spelling to a tiny notes section, but you want a fight over adding a source for the spelling of "Countess Valdène?" I also said we could simply keep that addition out so no source need be added. It's not like I'm not trying here with options. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes I moved the article because I thought your reasoning for non-accented titles from previous name-related debates that she registered as such at ATP/WTA doesn't apply here (obviously). ITF operated from Paris at her time and its 80 year-later website has her as still living and being 107 age old (which is false) and nothing else info so I won't rely on it when it comes to valuable data in this very case. I thought there's no other reason you mentioned back then would stand the test (there were also some "she's notable for tennis, she had to accept that" stuff, which also out question not the case here as she could be notable for winning the "Campeonato de Cataluna de Automovilismo" alone, and there's journalism - not books, feminist movement...etc. Note that it was a Catalonian car racing GP, she won it with her Spanish name). Also the half of the refs is in Spanish and more could be added from http://hemeroteca.abc.es/ http://hemeroteca.lavanguardia.com. See, I went through the options before moving. But yes I know you could come up with something new, it's not hard to find misleading English sources (and I'm not saying you'd use them for that on purpose) but still I would like to see pre-open era articles unaffected by current English domination here. It's just like falsifying history. Fortunately 90% of wikipedia articles are proper in foreign spelling so if I want tennis articles to match it I guess it won't do any harm (just see this and it's only for Spanish).

Señorita is not an English word it is spelled as I typed (I would love to go back and correct my high school teacher if I were you) as you could see from the cover of her book I showed you earlier, which is in English. "Mrs." article titles are very rare in Wikipedia but I could find as many instanced as you want for an example of Mrs. used withing the text body of an article when it refers to the wife of -so-to-say - the person that the article is about (and so its title) because it's normal in an everyday conversation. On a side note Google isn't the only source...so when you ask for a Google source or link you haven't done all that could be done. Imagine a marriage paper stored somewhere in a French library. You know it could exist (as all such papers were kept by the Catholic church especially when it was about royal family or nobles) and it will be accented. Although I won't travel there and track it down just to convince you (and probably it won't after all). In a nutshell you can take out all traces of Countess Vald^?ne if you want so I don't care, but knowing French nationalism I really doubt that contemporary French Open draws or any French tournament (which all current websites have to use as source) omitted the accent if she ever entered into it under her married name. And again improving would be the goal and as e.g. you could see I added pronunciations recently to tennis articles - which is a basic learning material - but would look awkward with an unaccented article title (see above wiki-link). As long as IPA-links work like this tennis articles should follow. Lajbi ^{Holla @ me • CP} 12:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the long reply and let's all be happy that 1930 in tennis is currently featured on the opening page. Cheers. Lajbi ^{Holla @ me • CP} 12:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

No problem, but you are still incorrect at saying that senorita is a misspelling. As per Websters there is no need to go back to my high school teacher since it's the preferred spelling. So it's one thing to say it can be spelled señorita but it's quite false to say senorita is wrong. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:24, 20 December 2012 (UTC)