Talk:Justine (de Sade novel)

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Untitled

Thanks, it's looking much better now...my first article. woo!

"Nonetheless, Sade invites us to live virtuously in hope of heavenly reward." But the Maquis de Sade was an Atheist! This line doesn't make sense. (anon 4 June 2005)

• It would be more technically accurate to say that the narrator of the novel says this, but since that narrator is a persona adopted by Sade, I think what it says here is OK. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:24, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
  • Ive never read this book before, but I think it is more appropriate to insert statements with reference to the book to tell the readers of this article how Sade invite people to do so, as it seems contraditctory with what it says in the rest of the article. Tache 14:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I agree, It seems rather confusing how this article suggests a religious view to Sade's work. The Quotation on the end specifically disturbed me and I think should be removed.Lui1014 (talk) 15:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

The article states that the book was "written in two weeks on 8 July 1787." That's a bit of a contradiction; could someone clarify/correct this? --LostLeviathan 23:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Sade and Samuel Richardson

Certainly, being educated and literarily inclined, we must suppose Sade would have access to Richardson's work. This idea is supported by a report of Sade having referred to Samuel Richardson as 'the outstanding explorer of "the human heart, Nature's veritable labyrinth"' (Seaver and Wainhouse, in the introduction to the 1989 Arena reprint of their 1966 edition). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brynhilde (talk • contribs) 21 August 2006.

Unwikified text moved from article

The following was a large chunk of text recently placed in the article by an editor with only one (similar) previous edit. It looks cut and pasted from elsewhere. It doesn't follow any of our style conventions (e.g. how the quotation marks are done; originally—I've cleaned this up—paragraphs were separated by large numbers of tabs). It is totally unwikified. It reads like an essay.

This may be perfectly legitimate content or it may be a copyvio; I'll try to contact the contributor & ask about what is going on. - Jmabel | Talk 05:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

JUSTINE – major themes Jean Jacques Pauvert was condemned for publishing four texts of Sade (Les 120 Journies Sodome, La Philosophe dans le boudoir, La Nouvelle Justine and Juliette) alleged to be “contraires aux moeurs” in 1956. The judge declared that Sade constituted a dangerous example which “propose[d] itself as one not to be followed.” Pornographic pamphlets and cartoons circulated in 18th century France portrayed royalty as human and even less than that and destroyed the notion of the King’s ‘body politic’. In Nights of Paris Restif de la Bretonne mentions a bordello in Saint Antoine which the Duke of Orleans, Prince d’ Artois frequently visited. “There took place all the infamies and bestialities described by Sade in Justine or The Misfortunes of Virtue.” Sadean pornography dissolves the boundary between the political and the personal and the private and the public. It associates sexual act with violence. Pornography ceases to offer pleasure. The Sadean subject asserts sovereignty and seeks empowerment through the sexual act. The pornographic ritual neither inspires voyeuristic tendencies nor does it guarantee satisfaction. The reader feels disgusted and fatigued as the author subverts all expectations that the reader might have from a pornographic narrative. In the Republican discourse of 18th century France “Justine”, a journalist said in 1799 “is a work as dangerous as the loyalist newspaper Le Necessaire, because if republics are founded upon carnage, they are upheld by morality” and the destruction of the latter always led to the destruction of the former.

In the Preface to The Misfortunes of Virtue(1778) the author declared that ‘bold thoughts’ would cause no shock in a ‘philosophic century’ and the writer who knew all ‘affairs of the heart” had made use of all possible situations and cynical pictures to which “only fools” would take offence. Sade rewrote The Misfortunes of Virtue in a longer version Justine in 1791 while he was in prison. Though circulated as an anonymous work Sade claimed its authorship in a circle of close acquaintances. The introduction to the work written in stylized euphemistic language appears very hypocritical. The narrator mentions the “prosperity of crime” in the opening sentence itself. However he attempts to acquaint Constance (to whom the work is addressed) with the “sweetness of the tears of virtue” while establishing the victory of virtue over vice as the scheme of the novel. The novel as it progresses hardly follows the professed path. It champions libertinage, portrays Nature as a cruel entity, questions faith, religion and God, endorses crime, tears apart all manners and customs and builds up a Utopia of freedom. He revises many of the conventions of the 18th century novel. There is no resolution and no purpose of narrative. The work ends with the eponymous heroin’s death. Justine becomes an anti novel. Sade challenges the Enlightenment fascination with reason. He also questions the two grand edifices of Renaissance culture- Nature and society. In Justine sexuality and textuality combine to create a wealth of meaning which needs to be unearthed.

Justine’s identity is shaped through the language of pornography. Her identity is extremely fragile. She is a ‘whore’ who wades through multiple violations, orgies and her voice is silenced by patriarchy. The male pleasure seekers deprive her of her selfhood with little resistance from her side. Justine takes over from the omniscient narrator as she gives an account of her misfortunes as the victim Therese to Madam de Lorsange. She is at odds with the sexual order of her torturers. Her absolute notions of virtue and vice disintegrate in the Sadean universe which is ruled by the notion of maximization of pleasure and personal interest.

Monsieur du Harpin falsely accuses Justine of robbery when she refuses to give in to his demands. Justine realizes that that a poor miserable girl is not granted the quality of virtue by the society. Hence she becomes a criminal without committing any crime. She faces other charges too including murder(of Countess de Bressac). She therefore acquires dual identities- that of a whore and a criminal. Sade saw the traces of the old feudal order in the new society. Human beings were still defined by property and the Republican idea of equality was a myth. Harpin tells her that poor people, bastards and orphans have no right to live and eat into the resources of the society. Inspite of her noble background Justine is cornered by the society following her parents’ death and her departure from the convent. She is determined to preserve her piety inspite of bodily corruption in order to experience eternal joy. Her faith in a benevolent Providence is tested time and again.The libertine surgeon Roden who offers Justine a job as well as shelter in his own house characterizes virtue as a ‘scheme of conduct’ which varies from place to place, time to time. It has no reality, no constancy, hence it is mutable. Juliette, Justine’s sister who leaves the convent with her makes a few compromises and uses her body to seek entry to society. She becomes rich following a successful marriage, acquires a string of distinguished admirers and enjoys the affection of Monsieur de Corville, a powerful gentleman. She is not called a ‘whore’ or a ‘criminal’ by the society. Her wealth and position protect her from such labels.

When Justine’s rapists revile the body with blasphemous terms like ‘shrine’, ‘temple’, ‘altar’ the woman’s body becomes an unclaimed territory waiting to be conquered holding out the promise of safe refuge. Her body is the terrain on which the drama unfolds. Sade attacks the woman’s body as well as the prevailing notions of virginity and chastity. The leader of the Brigands Coeur de Fer marks the woman’s body as the repository of pleasure. He undermines the family by rejecting the marital bond. He instructs Justine not to deprive men of the pleasure of exploring her body. The portrayal of the homosexual relationship between Count de Bressac and his valet, the presentation of an incestuous relationship between Roden and his daughter Rosalie subvert the notion of heterosexual couple formation and similar bourgeois sexual values. Therese’s rape by crucifixion is a direct attack on Christianity, its rituals and the paraphernalia associated with them.

The French critic Beuve speaks of Sade as a powerful corruptor of literary morals. It is because of him the expression ‘sadism’ came into being. At Merseilles Sade wanted Marianne Lavergue to whip him with a parchment beater with bent pins which he took out of his own pocket. She struck him across the buttocks with a heather broom. His works were quite true to his life. This culminates in the repeated association of violence with the sexual act. The characters derive pleasure out of inflicting pain on others as well as their own selves. She saves Saint Florent from the bandits, he in turn rapes and sodomizes her; Roden experiences sexual ecstasy by abusing children; the Benedictine monks practice violent sexual orgies. Justine herself is a prototype of pure masochism as she repeatedly undergoes frightfully painful physical experiences without much resistance. Tying up, beating, whipping, experimenting with bizarre positions became important tropes used in the sexual act. The revolution made Sade feel that there was no need for caution anymore. So he reveals an orgy of fear in his work.

Evil is a condition, an impulse which becomes a necessity. Here good and evil coexist and human beings are free to pursue either. We receive these impulses from Nature. Nature recurs as a motif in the novel. The anthropomorphic view of Nature is questioned. Equality is the basis of natural law which is disturbed by unequal distribution of wealth. Dubois, a member of the gang of Brigands endorses crime as the only means of usurping power from the rich and restoring the state of equality. Crime and evil are the only weapons available to the poor to survive. The Chief of the Brigands delivers a commentary on society, religion and sexuality in the manner of an 18th century philosopher. He claims that Nature is largely indifferent to man, his actions and his institutions which the natural law. Achievement of personal pleasure compensates for the wrongs inflicted on the multitude. Individual freedom should not be agreed upon by the masses. Sade conceives a society founded on conflict. A society created out of contract takes away individual’s right in the name of greater good. Nature encourages evil, crime in order to restore the state of chaos, freedom. God is ineffectual, powerless. Nature reigns supreme. Sade presents Nature as matter in motion. All men are equal because ultimately each of them will face the same fate. The notion of God being the supreme Creator which is the fundamental premise of every religion is rejected. Even the idea of Christ born of mortal parents claiming to be the saviour of mankind is negated.

Predatory Nature employs man to achieve her end. Murder is justified as natural law by which one species asserts its existence over another. Roden prepares for the murder of his daughter in the name of advancement of medical science.Sade redefines the notions of liberty, equality and freedom and constructs a form of Utopian socialism based on natural law. Justine can be read as a treatise on libertinage developing into an institution of pleasure sustained by a private code of conduct.

Marquis de Sade was involved in both the development of his own philosophies and observing the changing nature of his own country. He exposes the corruption practiced by in the court, church and society in his works. Mercier declared that Paris was full of priests with tonsures who served neither the state nor the church. Juliette calls the Pope an “old ape”(Juliette, chap 4) The cult of the so-called “Satan’s Church” undermined the tenets of Christianity. Satan Phallus, a Sadean figure was an ancient God of instincts who taught women the art of seduction and men the need to satisfy their feeling. Count de Bressac is fascinated with the sexual prowess of women, specially prostitutes who enjoy the pleasure of participating in erotic adventures with multiple partners. These women in the 18th century took all the counterparts of male libertine and were determined to enjoy the shame of their calling. Convents became site for gossip and scandal. Sexual intercourse with Father Confessors was common. In the novel the four Benedictine monks maintain a coterie of women ranging from little girls to middle aged women who carry out elaborate sexual rituals every night. Even the pregnant women are not spared. These orgies are symptomatic of the monks’ insatiable appetite for sex. They admit that they do not believe in God and do not serve Him either. Sexuality in the ‘Saint Mary-in-the-wood’ abbey is time bound. The architecture of the building is reminiscent of the twenty four hour surveillance model devised by Bentham. Here sexual act is transformed into a strict institution. Justine emerges as a critique of society, politics, religion, the critique of an age struggling to deal with the sweeping changes it is forced to face. This culminates in an extreme lack of faith.

As Justine recounts her misfortunes Madam de Lorsange discovers her carefully concealed identity. Ironically both sisters have to let go of their identity when they part ways and they regain their identity once they reconcile. Corville ensures that Justine is freed of all charges. In a fatalistic universe end of suffering is the end of life. She is struck by a thunderbolt. The lightning motif returns with Justine’s death. We never know whether she is suitably rewarded in the other world for her virtue.

Sources:

• Grayson B. Susan, The Heroine’s Split in Sade’s “Justine”, Pacific Coast Philology, Vol.25, No1/2(NOV, 1990).
• Ferguson Frances, Sade and the Pornographic Legacy, Representations, No.36(Autumn, 1991).
• Barthes Roland, Life of Sade, Sade Fourier Loyola,(1976)
• Wilson Colin, The Misfits: A Study of Sexual Outsiders, Grafton Books, Great Britain, 1989.

[end moved text] ACTUALLY ALL of the above is much more appropriate than the section entitled Major Themes. Major Themes is worded so as to give the impression it is more about De Sade's philosophies than about the novel, and the first sentence supports this. Either way it needs revision, either the first several sentences or the entire Major Themes. As for the above being assumed a cut and paste? What supports this? It is absolutely silly to think because the author has only one other edit found in Wiki you have deemed it a cut-n-paste! If you cannot find the text elsewhere on-line you must assume it is indeed original. Should it remain? Perhaps not, but to state it is a cut-n-paste or even to imply it has the appearance of one without a shred of evidence is inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.209.222 (talk) 16:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Prenom Justine

Anybody know what her surname was? Or was it ever revealled? (Shades of Quincy.) Trekphiler 10:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The Plot/Summary is Jumbled Together

Justine encounters various People in the novel who subject her to different acts; and the Plot section groups it all together. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.63.204.7 (talk • contribs) 21 March 2007.

wordsworth edition

"Other versions currently in print, notably the Wordsworth edition, are abridged and heavily censored." is that true? the cover says "unexpurgated" as can be seen here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/1853266353/ref=dp_image_0/105-5383650-1538816?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.152.42.43 (talk) 01:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Therese or Sophie?

In the "Perennial forbidden classics" edition of Justine (ISBN: 978-0-00-730044-0), the woman goes under the name of Sophie, not Therese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.8.132.220 (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Major Themes Needs Work

"De Sade was strongly involved in both the development of his own philosophies" What? This is poorly worded if not bizarre sentence, a person is strongly involved in their own philosophies? I would assume so! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.209.222 (talk) 20:22, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 21 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as proposed. SSTflyer 10:18, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

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Justine (Sade novel) → Justine (de Sade novel) – The Marquis' family name was "de Sade", not "Sade" - see Marquis de Sade. I think the disambiguator should reflect this. Tevildo (talk) 17:50, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

• Support. While Sad[e]- is used without "de" in combining forms (e.g. the word sadism, in the same way that Descartes, whose forefathers would have spelled it des Cartes, gave rise to Cartesian), the name used as a human name is de Sade. Using it without "de" borders on original research, as it is quite rare in sources in that form (and is mostly only found in obsolete ones). At very least it fails both WP:RECOGNIZABLE and WP:PRECISE. The average reader is apt to think this is a novel by an African singer-songwriter with whom millions more English-speakers are familar than are aware of de Sade, even when his name is spelled correctly.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  16:41, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 14 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (Goodbye!) 06:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

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Justine (de Sade novel) → Justine (Sade novel) – In the French naming custom, the prefix "de" is not considered part of last name and is not capitalized. It is not used when the first name or the title is not used, i.e., it is correct to say "Guy de Maupassant" or "Monsieur de Maupassant," but it is incorrect to say "De Maupassant" by itself. This is not a controversial take, it's linguistic fact found in all articles regarding the topic of French naming conventions. Now, the second question to be settled is whether or not "Sade" is the common English usage as well, like Maupassant is. There are cases like De Gaulle where the incorrect rendering is so prevalent in the English-speaking world that it'd be incorrect to redirect a page to refer to him as "Gaulle." However, it can be argued that this is not the case with Sade. While "De Sade" is also common and may even be found in some (generally older) credible sources (the most important of which is Britannica), almost all prominent works regarding him today refer to the correct last name, Sade. This is also a non-controversial take in my opinion, as it is evident in the writer's own article and the works it mentions or lists as sources (such as the famous "Must we burn Sade?" by Simone de Beauvoir or "Sade, Fourier, Loyola" by the famous Roland Barthes. Even further research (outside the body of Wikipedia itself) would show that most prominent, modern, credible works in English refer to him by the universally correct variant and that it's not obscure by any means. Painfully, it seems that this article was originally titled correctly and it was moved to the current title in 2016, whose "support" which I'm reading now in the talk page includes some very questionable statements (such as "...it is quite rare in sources in that form and is mostly only found in obsolete ones...") and even some blatantly incorrect and clearly refutable ones (such as "...the name used as a human name is de Sade"). Without any intention of speaking ad hominem, it seems highly likely that the people in charge of the 2016 move were neither familiar with French nor with works referring to Sade. P. T. Tabayi (talk) 07:35, 14 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 11:33, 21 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (Goodbye!) 08:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Since the marquis is a figure in the popcultural milieu, he does actually have a common name in English, that is not restricted to academia. And also, being so common in English, we should not be using French-language sources to determine the common form in English. Thus to be wP:RECOGNIZABILITY (familiar, not necessarily an expert) recognizable to the lay public (the audience of Wikipedia), it should use the form commonly in use by the lay public, for such a publicly known figure. -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 08:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment I will note, that all books should use the author's full name as found on their Wikipedia article title disamabiguators, instead of just their surnames (or effective surnames), as this would conform with the rest of Wikipedia in how they configure the disambiguators of non-book topics with the names of their creators. We don't have songs hanging by their artists' last names, etc. So the disambiguator here should use "Marquis de Sade" as that is the name of the article Marquis de Sade. -- Justine (Marquis de Sade novel) -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 08:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

    There's a lot of disambiguation by surname at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music), just not within the "Bands, album and songs" section of that page. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Visual arts also recommends disambiguation by artists' surnames. "(Sade novel)" follows WP:BOOKDAB. Ham II (talk) 20:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The convention mentioned of omitting "de" simply does not carry over to English, and it's very confusing to just label him as "Sade" in the say proposed. As noted, Charles de Gaulle is almost exclusively known as "De Gaulle" or "de Gaulle", and for de Sade specifically we see sources such as Britannica which call him "de Sade", as well as De Sade (film), the film about his life. The main article on him should be updated to reflect proper English.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

  In English-language usage Michel de Montaigne is Montaigne for short, and Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette is Lafayette, so the convention certainly carries over into English. Ham II (talk) 20:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support The nominator correctly notes that Britannica is an outlier. It's mixed—so individual examples either way aren't particular helpful—but playing with ngrams shows which gets more use. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 21:55, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

  you need to click through to the actual results feeding your ngram... A large number of your supposed "and Sade" usages are actually about something different.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

  Fair point, missed that. "Sade" and "de Sade" are both normal ways to refer to him though; "Sade" is not not proper English. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 02:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject France, WikiProject Novels, WikiProject Freedom of speech, and WikiProject Sexology and sexuality have been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 11:33, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, he is better known as de Sade in English, much like de Gaulle. Per Amakuru. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. In my experience, he is most commonly referred to as "Sade" or the "Marquis de Sade" in English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:47, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
• Move to Justine (Sade novel) or Justine, or The Misfortunes of Virtue, the latter per WP:SUBTITLE. Ham II (talk) 20:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
  • That works for me -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 06:21, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.