Talk:Juan de Borbón y Braganza

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Spain

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France

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Infante

Was Juan an Infante of Spain? Also, although I moved this page, I did so only to include the diacritic to match with the title "Conde de"... I feel that it should be at least at Juan, Count of Montizón as that is seemingly how most royals are treated with regard to titling. If he is an Infante, it should be Infante Juan, Count of Montizón. Charles 16:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Juan's title of Infante was removed by the Isabellist government. Whether or not that counts, depends on who one thinks was the rightful sovereign of Spain. Noel S McFerran 17:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose it would be okay to leave that out then. What do you think of using an English form of the title? Charles 00:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The title Infante was formerly included in the article, but somebody took it out. If it is included, then it has to be explained that it was taken away by Isabella, and that this made no difference at all if one was Carlist. Noel S McFerran 01:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would it sort of be the same situation (ignoring ECHR) as Prince Sigvard, Duke of Uppland, where he used the princely and ducal titles, but this was not recognized by the king? If Juan used the title of Infante for himself the same way that Louis Alphonse may be the Duke of Anjou, etc, etc, couldn't it be included? I think the explaination would be sufficient. I think we also have to use the highest title by which an individual was known and used for him- or herself? Charles 16:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Page name

Today Cfvh moved this page to "Infante Juan, Count of Montizón". Such a move should only happen with consensus, and not unilaterally. "Count of Montizón" was a pseudonym used by Juan after his accession as Carlist claimant to the throne of Spain. It is the more common Wiki-practice to treat such titles as substantive and not to prefix them with the title "Prince" (or its Spanish equivalent "Infante"). Cf. Carlos, Duke of Madrid, Alfonso Carlos, Duke of San Jaime, Henri, comte de Paris, duc de France, and Franz, Duke of Bavaria. Noel S McFerran 21:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Infante was formerly included in the title but was removed unilaterally, apparently. Most princes with such titles have the cadet title prefixed to their names. Those that you have listed are the heads of houses, exceptions or of unclear status. Charles 21:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I actually created this page. An examination of the history shows that the page was never titled "Infante Juan, Count of Montizón". Juan was the head of his house; he was the Carlist claimant to the Spanish throne. He is in exactly the same position as the other persons I have listed. According to the Isabellists Juan was not an infante of Spain at all after 1837 (when he was aged fourteen). According to the Carlists he was king of Spain from 1860/1861 (it depends what kind of Carlist you are). He was never granted the title "Count of Montizón" by anybody. He merely used it for himself as a title of pretence, i.e. he claimed to be king of Spain, but instead used the title "Count of Montizón". Noel S McFerran 22:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I made a mistake from reading this: The title Infante was formerly included in the article, but somebody took it out. I apologize for the error. Charles 22:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lest anybody misunderstand: my comment "I actually created this page" was meant to show my familiarity with the history of this page from the beginning. It was not meant to imply any "ownership". Noel S McFerran 22:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]